I won't put Citgo gas in my Patriot or the wife's Ram 1500. Just trying to do my little part to tell Chevez to go and, well, let's just say you know what I mean to say....

I buy my gas at BJ's Warehouse.

 

I won't put Citgo gas in my Patriot, Just trying to do my little part to tell Chevez to go and, well, let's just say you know what I mean to say....

DITTO!!!! Chavez can 'shove it'....and watch out for "Petrol Plus" (sp?) stores as they are changing "Citgo's" to the "Petrol Plus" name.

i usually use BP, mostly because they seem to be the least expensive near my work, which is much cheaper than the area where i live. some days, there's a 20 cent difference between the north side of Indy and the south side....go figure.

occasionally i use Speedway, which is a division of Marathon.

also, reg unleaded here is approx $2.74/gal,

 

I would like to know the answer.

My thoughts are, gasoline is basically the same bec. of rules and regulations. Then, each company adds its additatives. What additatives are best, I do not know.

I also wonder about the age of the gas, that may be a big effect.

And it probally can be different from place to place. And maybe an additative in the mountains is great there but, not at sea level.

Hope someone educates us on this.

 

The truth about gasoline is really ugly.

First, all factory new cars are required to run on the lowest ocatane, 87. I wont say it will run at it's best performance, but it will run. Some dealers wont tell you this, but then then again they are getting paid to sell you a car that goes really fast, not how you can be a miser. All new cars have an octane sensor so they can adjust their timing to the needs of the gas. As for the Patriot, it has variable valve timing and of course spark timing so it can definitely handle any octane thrown at it.

As for the brands that is where it gets really ugly. Let's say a Mobil fuel depot in Iowa (I chose a city far from a refinery for a reason) requests 89 octane gas. The supplier in Louisiana sends the fuel. The supplier may get this fuel from Mobil or Shell or Citgo refineries. It does not matter, at this point the raw fuel has been refined to the same Federal Govt specs. so it is all the same. When the fuel gets to the depot in Iowa is when the propietary additives are added. Usually these additives are the cleaners or in my case 10% ethonal and the other additives to give me a "boutique" blend here in South East Wisconsin

All in all gas is generally the same from station to station and brand to brand. Are some cleaners better? yes. I guess it all depends on how much you want to believe the advertising. In all the cars I have had, I usually choose the lowest priced name brand station. But then again, gone are the days of Bob's gas station

BTW, Mobil is actually ExxonMobil the world's largest company by revenue, at $377.6 billion for the fiscal year of 2006.

As an IT person I should not be pushing Wikipedia (but as someone who has done a ton of research in his life it is a good place to start) but they have some articles on gas brands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_fuel_brands and more interestingly, what we now think of as "Major" oil companies were actually part of Rockefeller's Standard Oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

 

The truth about gasoline is really ugly.

First, all factory new cars are required to run on the lowest ocatane, 87. I wont say it will run at it's best performance, but it will run. Some dealers wont tell you this, but then then again they are getting paid to sell you a car that goes really fast, not how you can be a miser. All new cars have an octane sensor so they can adjust their timing to the needs of the gas. As for the Patriot, it has variable valve timing and of course spark timing so it can definitely handle any octane thrown at it.

As for the brands that is where it gets really ugly. Let's say a Mobil fuel depot in Iowa (I chose a city far from a refinery for a reason) requests 89 octane gas. The supplier in Louisiana sends the fuel. The supplier may get this fuel from Mobil or Shell or Citgo refineries. It does not matter, at this point the raw fuel has been refined to the same Federal Govt specs. so it is all the same. When the fuel gets to the depot in Iowa is when the propietary additives are added. Usually these additives are the cleaners or in my case 10% ethonal and the other additives to give me a "boutique" blend here in South East Wisconsin

All in all gas is generally the same from station to station and brand to brand. Are some cleaners better? yes. I guess it all depends on how much you want to believe the advertising. In all the cars I have had, I usually choose the lowest priced name brand station. But then again, gone are the days of Bob's gas station

BTW, Mobil is actually ExxonMobil the world's largest company by revenue, at $377.6 billion for the fiscal year of 2006.

As an IT person I should not be pushing Wikipedia (but as someone who has done a ton of research in his life it is a good place to start) but they have some articles on gas brands and more interestingly, what we now think of as "Major" oil companies were actually part of Rockefeller's Standard Oil

Largely in agreement. As you said, gasoline is a fungible commodity and has to meet certain minimum specs. The differences between brands comes in when the various additive packages are blended in. As long as one sticks with a "major" (Chevron, Texaco, Shell, etc.) he should be okay. But I, too, would steer clear of un-branded "rack" gasolines. As to all of the "majors" being descended from the original Standard Oil Company (i.e., the Standard Oil "Trust"), you mis-spoke. Only Standard of New York (Mobil) and Standard of New Jersey (Exxon)(now ExxonMobil), Standard of Ohio (SOHIO, which was bought by BP), Standard of Indiana (AMOCO, merged with BP), Standard of California (Chevron), The Continental Oil Company (CONOCO, now ConocoPhillips), and The Ohio Oil Company (Marathon) are the surviving parts of the Trust. (The Texas Company - TEXACO - for one, was never part of the Trust. However, TEXACO Inc "merged" with Chevron in 2001, and TEXACO is now a Chevron brand.)

 

I used to buy my gas at Sam's or Valero. I first heard about "top tier" gasolines from a guy at work whose father is recently retired from the petroleum industry. I thought "Yeah, sure." I then read about it in Motor Trend. And checked out the website.

http://www.toptiergas.com/

" TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction. "

I keep cars a long time. I bought my present car at 105,000 miles and it now has 195,000 miles without having the intake manifold or heads off of it. I have taken engines apart for maintenance and seen the deposits that can build up in the intake passages, combustion chambers, and exhaust passages. And on the valves.

Here's a list of the qualifying retailers.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

I now use Shell or Chevron. Mobil/Exxon isn't on the list.

FWIW and your engine life may vary.

 

As far as octane is concerned, I understand that the primary consideration is avoiding pinging. I know, because I have felt that way in the past, that it is "nicer" to one's engine to put in "better" higher octane gas. With today's engines running sophisticated computer program contolled fuel injection with "Knock sensors" to retard the ignition (actually, reduce the advance) to manage pre-ignition or detonation, I have come to believe that nothing is gained by running higher octane than the manufacturer calls for.

Higher than required octane gasoline can actually give less performance and gas mileage. It burns slower, so there is less area under the pressure/time curve pressing on the piston.

FWIW and YMMV.

 

I generally buy Shell gasoline. I have a Shell (Citibank) MasterCard that gives a 5% rebate on all Shell gas. That amounts to 15 cents per gallon at $3/gallon, and that adds up rather quickly.

 

Top Tier Gasoline

I always buy gas from one of the "Top Tier" producers:

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

As least there is some form of standard. I never buy from Esso/Exxon.

 

I no longer put Shell gasoline in my vehicles. Shell gas was resaponsible for killing the fuel pump in my last car. In Canada, Shell provided an under-the-table payback for anyone with fuel pump replacement problems. It was never advertised and kept clandestine. Not good. I no longer trust the b-----rds.

Also in Canada, I understand that there are independent gas stations who buy the dregs from the big boys at the end of the day. It appears if the fuel truck cana't deliver all the fuel, the remainder is sold off cheap since it cannot be returned to the main depot. So, if you go to Brand X on any given day, you could be getting Shell, Petro-Canada, Esso or Sunoco. It's a crap shoot with the independents. A big smalltime company here is Pioneer. Not sure whether they buy the dregs or have their own regular supply (probably from a big name anyway).

Just my .02

 

Round here we have Husky/Mowhawk stations the sell 89 with 10% Ethanol for the same price as all the big boys sell their 87. I have used them as much as possible. Twice bought Esso at a local and had the car missfire, second time it actually dropped a cylinder and ran on 3. Dealer fixed it no issue but no more Esso for this guy.

 

I will keep that in mind dokboy. I am currently toggling between Petro-Canada and Esso. Sunoco just isn't nearby is all. When gas gets cheaper, I like to add a tank of 89 octane. Not sure if it *really* makes a difference, but I get the unsubtantiated feeling it does.

I notice the pumps say *may* contain up tp 10% ethanol. Ethanol = less mpg is all I know.

 

I will keep that in mind dokboy. I am currently toggling between Petro-Canada and Esso. Sunoco just nearby is all. When gas gets cheaper, I like to add a tank of 89 octane. Not sure if it *really* makes a difference, but I get the unsubtantiated feeling it does.

I notice the pumps say *may* contain up tp 10% ethanol. Ethanol = less mpg is all I know.

Petro-Canada and Sunoco is OK, however perhaps stay clear of Esso as they are not on the "Top Tier" list.

 

Most of the major brands in the Southeast get the gas from a pipeline out of New Orleans. It was why we were impacted severely when Katrina hit. Had to rely on transports from Savannah. It is a commodity product and all brands get from the same pipeline with the only difference being octane. I have not noticed any difference between brands in years.

 

Most of the major brands in the Southeast get the gas from a pipeline out of New Orleans. It was why we were impacted severely when Katrina hit. Had to rely on transports from Savannah.

Speaking of Kartina and "price crisis." If I remember correctly, gas prices hit a whopping $2.80 in my area after Kartina hit, and that was due to supply shortages. People freaked out and started hoarding.

And now, $2.80 is a good thing? I consider myself lucky because I filled up at $2.84 this week? BS. Wages haven't changed in the past 3 years but cost of living is skyrocketing. Food is also going up, and so is ammo, incidentaly.

There are many factors at play: the dollar, war, future's trading, refinery capacity, world demand.... but the one factor that nobody is considering how much longer we're gonna take it. The boot will only stay on our necks for so long.

There will be no mercy, no pitty, no bailout, no handout. Two things will solve our energy crisis, massive advancement in energy technology or a massive human die-off.

 

Chavez can 'shove it'....and watch out for "Petrol Plus" (sp?) stores as they are changing "Citgo's" to the "Petrol Plus" name.

Actually, if the name changes, it is likely they no longer get gasoline from Citgo. Venezuela was actually needing to purchase gasoline to feed the US Citgo stations; the demand was higher than their actual production output. Their cutting off of most US Citgo stations was partially a political statement, but it was more so a practical matter for them. I wouldn't boycott a renamed station due to concerns about ties to Venezuela.

I notice the pumps say *may* contain up tp 10% ethanol. Ethanol = less mpg is all I know.

Ethanol is used as a oxygenator for the fuel to improve emissions. MTBE also worked well, but it had the nasty side effect of polluting groundwater. Ethanol has less BTUs per gallon than gasoline, hence the lower mpg when using it; gasoline with ethanol contains less energy, so you won't go as far on a gallon of it (E85 is even worse in that regard).

 

Esso

here in Canada I buy most of the time Esso ,I won't buy from the little retailers,I just don't trust them with the gas quality

 

Just a quick note on octane ratings..
tumprgt, you stated that all factory cars run on regular gas. That's not true.
Some cars require higher octane ratings as my Mini Cooper did.
In fact, they would void the warranty if they found less than 91 octane in the tank. Other makers (I can't recall the others) require it also. The forums for the Mini has many examples of someone trying to use a lesser octane, only to run into engine performance loss and mechanical trouble.
While I agree that MOST of the cars can run on regular, it can't be said that ALL of them do.
Just wanted to clarify that.

..or did you just mean American cars? You may have a valid point on that..I couldn't say one way or the other on that count.

 

While test driving a BMW X5, which has the same "requirements" of 91 octane, I flat out asked the sales guy and a tech if it would run on 87. After much hemming an hawwing they admited that it would but there would definitely be a drop in performance and that they could not void the warranty. The problem with requiring 91 octane is that gas stations are not required to sell it. So what do you do if you are out of gas and at one of these stations?

Car companies like to make threats, but if you push back enough, they will cave and admit to some of their little quirks.

BTW Randoo, thanks for putting this post on topic. Let's all admit that what ever gas station we go to we will be buying the oil of someone(s) we may have issues with.

 

Friends I have that work @various petro test companies say chevron best and shell worst--IMFHO I use chevron since back in days geb+pups

 

I got a $200 gift card from Chevron and used it exclusively for a month and watched my mpgs go down from 25.5 to 21.8 - on a long trip I was only able to get it up to 24.8. I realized what was going on and put in a tank of the cheapest stuff I could find and the mpgs went up almost immediately. I burned through that tank and finished off my gift card and the mpgs went straight down again. I got Chevron gas in Nevada & California - no difference. I've been using the cheap Rebel gas and back up to 25.5. IMHO additives are empty calories especially when you've got a lifetime warrenty.

Since it's voting season - here's a helpful site to follow the money - OpenSecrets.org

 

Octane Sensor?!?!?!?!

Now I've heard everything. There is no "octane sensor" in any vehicle. In injection systems the mix is primarily controlled by two sensors. The first is the TPS (throttle position sensor) and the second is the O2 sensor. There are others that effect the mix as well, but those are secondary.

The O2 sensor constantly "sniffs" the exhaust for O2 content. If there is too much, it riches the mix. Too little and it leans it. The TPS measures your demand for power.

Gas is pretty much gas and no, age has nothing to do with the quality. The octane rating is supposed to be measured after "blending". That includes ethenol. There are very few other additives that the EPA allows and all of those are strictly for air quality purposes that vary region by region.

If you encounter a station or series of stations that seem to have "bad gas", don't use them. Odds are that either the station or it's supplier is cutting the gas with something. I have heard horror stories about stations and distributers using things like Isopropyl alcohol, anti-freeze, filtered waste oil, diesel fuel and even plain old water.

Also consider how you measure your mileage. If you are calculating it manually from fill-up to fill-up keep in mind that the more common problem is that the pumps are doctored. local studies have found that pump accuracy can vary by as much as 20%.

 

Now I've heard everything. There is no "octane sensor" in any vehicle. In injection systems the mix is primarily controlled by two sensors. The first is the TPS (throttle position sensor) and the second is the O2 sensor. There are others that effect the mix as well, but those are secondary.

The O2 sensor constantly "sniffs" the exhaust for O2 content. If there is too much, it riches the mix. Too little and it leans it. The TPS measures your demand for power.

Gas is pretty much gas and no, age has nothing to do with the quality. The octane rating is supposed to be measured after "blending". That includes ethenol. There are very few other additives that the EPA allows and all of those are strictly for air quality purposes that vary region by region.

If you encounter a station or series of stations that seem to have "bad gas", don't use them. Odds are that either the station or it's supplier is cutting the gas with something. I have heard horror stories about stations and distributers using things like Isopropyl alcohol, anti-freeze, filtered waste oil, diesel fuel and even plain old water.

Also consider how you measure your mileage. If you are calculating it manually from fill-up to fill-up keep in mind that the more common problem is that the pumps are doctored. local studies have found that pump accuracy can vary by as much as 20%.

There is also very often a knock sensor that can detect preignition and will dial back the timing a shade to compensate. That is the source of cars requiring premium fuel being able to run on regular gas. My wife's Acura demands premium for full power, but if it gets fed regular, the computer will self-adjust the timing to prevent knock (which can potentially blow holes in the tops of the pistons), reducing available power. It will then take it at least a couple of tanks of premium to get things adjusted back to normal.

Octane requirements are there for a reason; the manufacturer usually has designed the run the engine at compression levels where preignition can be a real problem on lower octane blends. That is so they can get more power out of a given size of engine. Personally, I don't understand why people would spend the money for an expensive car that required premium, and then cheap out on the fuel (thereby getting the same amount of performance they'd have gotten with a cheaper car).

 

I am not to proud to admit when I haved errored and this is one of those times.
1. Octane sensor. I assumed that since my old POS '85 Ford Bronco II had one (the service manual specified one on the back of the carb) that the new vehicles would have. In a sense they do but only to determine if there is not enough. Sensible is partially correct in the sensors used but most (if not all) cars these days also have a knock sensor. By monitoring a multitude of sensors (the listed ones included plus the Mass air, fuel pressure, temp, ...) the engine control unit will try to find the optimal timing and fuel/air mixture for the requested demand/RPM within its programmed specs

2.All cars can run on 87 octane. I miswrote. The ocatane level represents the gasoline's ability to resist preignition under compression. If the ECU can not get the compression below a certain ratio and can not adjust the air/fuel mix, there will be knocking. Most new cars on the road today can make enough adjustments to compensate for lower octane.

So now that I have admitted faults, we get get to the topic. Will higher octane in the Pat improve performance/gas mileage? No. When the the ECU was programmed, it was done with 87 octane, since there is no sensor that can read a higher octane, it can not advance the timing to give you more power. If the ECU was programmed to 93 octane then you would gain performance if you used it since it would run in "detuned" mode on 87.

As for gas mileage for station to station. He in SE WI where it is required that we have blended gas, we definitely have a drop in mileage. Where my folks live one county over, they still use 100% gas so I get much better mileage. The difference can be significant. On a trip a few years back, my Saturn SL1 got about 30 mpg on a trip to Madison. On the return trip, I filled the tank (I ran it dry visiting friends in Madison) and got upwards of 50. I couldn't believe it myself but I confirmed by only putting in 2 gallons on the 100 mile trip. I would look at the gas you are pumping to see the ethanol content as I have found that to be major difference in my mileage.

At one time the reason to use Premium grade was because of the added amount of detergents added to the fuel. Now with Top Tier gas having roughly the same amount across all grades, save money by buying 87 (higher if you are going off roading) from a reputable station.

 

I usually buy Sunoco (which uses mostly US produced oil) , but also Lukoil, and have no political problem with Citgo. Chavez is no angel but he's not as bad as the middle east oil shieks, plus he does give discount fuel oil to poor households. Besides, there are some Americans who consider Mr. Bush the Devil.

 

I so don't understand.

If the patriot never knows it's getting higher octane fuel, then why is it recommended for off-road use. I don't think the Patriot *knows* it is off-road if there is no foretelling indication like wheel slip or putting the Patriot into L for the CVT2L crowd. Even if it does somehow, is the Patriot tuned to expect higher octane fuel has been added and it computes for its use?

Just trying to understand what happens if a vehicle where 87 octane is recommended gets a tank of fuel that has a higher octane component. Better gas mileage? Worse mileage? No change? More oomph? Less oomph? What?????

 

The engine is tuned for optimum performance with 87 octane gasoline. On-road or off-road use isn't a factor, one way or another. If you were doing some really heavy towing, you might get marginally better performance with 89 octane, although that's doubtful. The only real difference you would see would be more vacant space in your wallet.

 

When you are off roading or towing, you tend to put the engine under a greater load. This is where the higher octane would help. You can run at the same timing and not get knocking.

Remember back in the day when you timed the cars yourself and you set it to a spot let's say 12 BTC. It ran fine under normal conditions but under heavy acceleration it would knock once in awhile. You then had to bring it back to 9 or 10 BTC to make it go away completely but the pickup was never the same. If you were running a higher octane gas, you probably would not have had the knock as the higher octane fuel resists preignition. The same holds true when off roading, your tend to put the engine under "abnormal" stress, so the ECU would adjust the timing to compensate if it sense the knocking. Thus reducing the torque/power then engine can deliver. The higher octane would reduce the chance of knocking thus allow the engine to give you its max.

Also with the possiblity of more detergents in the costlier grades, it doesn't hurt when you engine goes from hard pounding getting up the trail, to idling at the top, to running on a dirt track, to fording a stream, to...

 

I agree with what tumpgrt said.

I so don't understand.

If the patriot never knows it's getting higher octane fuel, then why is it recommended for off-road use. I don't think the Patriot *knows* it is off-road if there is no foretelling indication like wheel slip or putting the Patriot into L for the CVT2L crowd. Even if it does somehow, is the Patriot tuned to expect higher octane fuel has been added and it computes for its use?

The 2008 Owner's Manual says, for the FDII,

When the system has the 4WD lock lever engaged and is in the Low Off-Road mode or reverse, the engine calibration changes to run higher spark advance with premium fuel for optimum off-road performance.

If someone got into the Engine Control Unit (computer), it would probably be possible to redo the ignition advance program and advance tables to run higher spark advance all the time, getting some more performance and fuel mileage with premium fuel. But the change probably wouldn't save enough fuel to make up for the increased price of 91 octane over 87.

FWIW and YMMV.

 

Thanks so much, indianrefining, tumprgt and RHill.

Mitigating the "vacant space" in my wallet overrides the perceived performance gains from using 89 octane. For some reason I just felt better; but I guess it is like washing your Patriot. For some reason it just feels like it runs better when it knows you babied and cared for it a bit. [wry smile]

 

Actually, washing it does help. It makes the surface smoother and reduces drag, thereby increasing performance and fuel economy.

 

Quasi,
At one of our local car washes, the exit door has a quote: "A cleaner car run better". Your statement just reminded me of that and I agree, the perception of it it is more expensive it has to be better sometimes overrides reality. Sometimes it is true ($50 used Yugo vs a new Pat) sometimes not ($500 pair of designer jean vs good o'l Levis)