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Discussion starter · #121 · (Edited)
0-60 Times for FDII w/ CVT Transmission

Finally, I was able to get some more accurate 0-60 times without requiring a passenger to eye it using a stopwatch.

First off, I visited the site below to calculate the difference in speed @ 60 MPH between stock tires (215/65/17) and the tires I upgraded to (235/65/17). The difference is approximately 2.2 MPH. Next, I took this number as a percentage (just under 4% of 60MPH is 2.2MPH) and used this to calibrate my ScanGaugeII. Recall that my Speedometer is off due to the difference in tire size. http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_tire/tire.php

Before getting started, I made sure my ScanGauge was running the newest software (v4.05) so it would be as accurate 'as possible'. I then bumped up the MPH setting by the percentage listed above. Afterwards, I verified the accuracy of the new MPH reading by driving past a Speed Sign in my area that uses integrated RADAR to detect traffic speed which displays this as you drive by via large LEDs. I simply set my cruise control and drove past it a few times at various speeds to ensure I calibrated my ScanGauge correctly.

The ScanGauge II has a Performance Monitor feature that includes a function to track 0-60 time that begins as soon as a change in speed is detected. I ran four separate 0-60 attempts, saved them to memory and stepped through the data to view the recorded times which were:

1st Run: 8.7 sec
2nd Run: 8.4 sec
3rd Run: 8.6 sec
4th Run: 8.4 sec
-----------------
Average: 8.52 seconds (Note: with stock tires, these times could be slightly better)


Note: I weigh 230 lbs, had no passenger and didn't lighten the load that I've added to the Pat, except removing my toolbox and heavy duty come-along. My Class III hitch, 1/4' steel skid plates, and spare tire were included in these runs. Lastly, I did NOT launch.

After looking at an earlier post by member Afmcronnie regarding stock Jeep Patriot times, I decided to do my own research on 0-60 times published for 'various' Patriot Models and discovered a few things..

1.) All 0-60 times I found for 2.4L Patriots w/ Freedom Drive II group (FDII) and CVT transmissions were in the high 9s or low 10s, except for one of two listed on zeroto60times.com, which does not even come close to matching the same times reported elsewhere, nor does it list the source. This is probably due to a manual transmission.(See links to sources of 0-60 times below; *2.4L/CVT/FDII models only)

2.) FDI models are slightly faster than FDIIs

3.) Despite the claimed benefits of CVT transmission, when compared with a 5-speed manual with a similar engine, the CVT loses (if you know how to shift correctly)

4.) FWD models are quicker than 4WD/AWD models

5.) The newer 2.4L Jeep Patriot with 5-speed manual transmission is the fastest stock Patriot

6.) Of all the different features and models available, I own the slowest stock Patriot (with a 2.4L engine) based on the options I chose

To summarize, the majority of 0-60 times differ greatly depending primarily on model and features such as transmission, FDI/FDII group, FWD/4x4, etc.

In conclusion, the 'average' 0-60 time I found reported by the vast majority of sources for the same model Patriot with the same features is 9.86 seconds. On the otherhand, the 'average' time of my four 0-60 runs are just over 8.52 seconds, which comes out to be a 13.6% improvement. Although there may not be an exact, measurable correlation between speed and horsepower when it comes to 0-60 times, I would think the improvement in horsepower is at least the same (+13.6%) as the improvement in speed thanks to the B&G Performance Tune along with the exhaust work. If I go by this more moderate estimation, I can conclude my patriot has added at least another 23.4 HP, minimum. The reason I say this, is because you actually loose power at the wheels anytime you go from stock to oversized tires.(same thing is true for 4WD/AWD, versus FWD/2WD) Everyone else can make up their own ideas about how much of this performance in reality is attributed to the B&G tune, the headers, CAI, exhaust, etc.

If owners of the newer 2.4L Patriot (2011-12, 4x4) with a manual transmission got a B&G Performance tune, they could very well get better 0-60 times than I have since they are quicker to begin with. In the end, I roughly got back all the power I lost by choosing 4x4, FDII, oversized tires and CVT options, which is great because at stock, it was a frigging nightmare trying to merge onto the freeway from the on-ramp in high speed city traffic.

My only real gripe with this vehicle has been resolved (horrid performance), saving me from spending another $6-8,000 up front (the difference in MSRP) on a 4-door JK, not including an additional $1,200 (avg) on gas per year, oh and more expensive insurance too.

*RESOURCES:
--------------
<> ~10 seconds - http://www.allpar.com/reviews/2008/patriot.html

<> 10.1 seconds - http://www.trucktrend.com/features/...features/consumer/163_0909_2010_2011_compact_suv_buyers_guide/jeep_patriot.html

<> 9.9 Seconds - http://www.zeroto60times.com/Jeep-0-60-mph-Times.html (*CVT model with FDII?)

<> 9.7 seconds - http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/suv/112_0712_2008_sport_utility_of_the_year/viewall.html

<> 9.6 Seconds - http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-54851.html (Patriot Sport 4X4 w/ CVT 0-60 was tested at 9.6 by Consumer reports, Car & Driver tested a 5-speed 4X4 and it was 8.7)

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
Thanks for the update. Looks like the tune definitely makes a difference.

I went out a few days back and did some runs with the scan gauge, but it was a very windy day so the best time I got was about 10.6. Haven't had a decent day to go back out yet.

I did those runs with the selector in Drive and flooring it. Is this how you did yours?
 
Very cool Mr Policeman! That's pretty conclusive research that the modifications that you did had a substantial effect on the wheel horsepower of your jeep (especially considering the larger tires.) I wonder if "launching" the vehicle would improve times further? I haven't driven CVTs much so I don't really now how much of an improvement that would make.

This may be a dumb question, but did you guys use a CAI with the TB mods?
I used a simple 14" round air cleaner atop the throttle body, like the air cleaner setups they used to put on V8s back in the day. I'd never heard of any compelling evidence that a CAI did more for you than a simple round air filter, so I never bought one (they were also about $200 more). I always wanted a hood with a scoop in it or a cowl to bring in fresh air, but never felt I could justify the $500+ for that either.
 
Discussion starter · #125 · (Edited)
Don't mean to hijack the thread, I have a scanguage but can't seem to get the 0-60 part on my SG is there an update a need to do?
Apologies if I made this confusing with the way I described it. Simply navigate to the Performance Monitor feature, ARM it, and go. It will automatically begin recording data, which you must STORE in a memory slot when finished. From there, you step through the saved data after selecting the Speed parameter until you see the time (in Seconds) at 60MPH. Also, you'll want to make sure you 'decrement' the update interval to the smallest option available before getting started. (see their website for more on SG Usage and Upgrades)

Lastly, I will be posting some of the newer, hard to find XGAUGE codes specific to our Patriot which add ScanGauge functionality for monitoring things like:

<> Transmission Temperature
<> Oil Temp
<> Ambient Air Temp
<> Air/Fuel Ratio
<> ..more..

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
Discussion starter · #126 · (Edited)
..I did those runs with the selector in Drive and flooring it. Is this how you did yours?
That's it, I just placed it in 'D' and put the pedal to the absolute floor. I contemplated launching, but I'm worried about doing some expensive damage knowing all the work I've done on it. Secondly, it's my only vehicle right now.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
Launching the vehicle shouldn't have any negative effects. Torque converters are designed to slip, up to a point, the stall speed. All you have to do is put her on the floor for enough time to get the RPMs up to the stall speed (less than a second) and let go of the brake. It might help to reduce the off-the-line bog, or it might not. I would think with the ability to completely defeat the traction control system that it would help, but I can't say for sure since I have the 5 speed. I know the dodge dakota guys used to always be talking about different torque converters for launching at optimal RPM and whatnot.
 
Discussion starter · #128 · (Edited)
*7.8 Seconds (with Launch and Low gear)

During the pre-game show for the Superbowl, I noticed there was very little traffic in my area so I decided to try a couple quick 0-60 runs a.) starting with a Launch, and b.) shifting from Low gear to Drive.

For the first time I was able to spin the front tires, then went on to record an 8.0 followed by a 7.8 Second 0-60 time. This is the fastest recorded time for a Patriot, let alone a 4x4 model with CVT and FDII group.

Since this style of driving is new to me, I need to spend some time trying to find the optimal RPM at which to launch and when to best shift from 'L' to 'D'. Hence, the best 0-60 time could be yet to come..

Of course, these new 0-60 numbers confirm that my original estimation of adding 'at least' 23.4 Horsepower were indeed conservative. Going from 10 to 7.8 Seconds (0-60 time), I have shaved roughly 2.0-2.2 Seconds off from stock time, 'despite loosing power at the wheels' from the oversized tires.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
During the pre-game show for the Superbowl, I noticed there was very little traffic in my area so I decided to try a couple quick 0-60 runs a.) starting with a Launch, and b.) shifting from Low gear to Drive.

For the first time, I was able to spin the front tires, then went on to record an 8.0 followed by a 7.8 Second 0-60 time. This is the fastest recorded time for a Patriot, let alone a 4x4 model with CVT and FDII group.

Since this style of driving is new to me, I need to spend some time trying to find the optimal RPM at which to launch and when to best shift from 'L' to 'D'. Hence, the best 0-60 time could be yet to come..

Of course, these new 0-60 numbers confirm that my original estimation of adding 'at least' 23.4 Horsepower were indeed conservative. Going from 10 to 7.8 Seconds (0-60 time), I have shaved roughly 2.0-2.2 Seconds off from stock time, 'despite loosing power at the wheels' (from the oversized tires).

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
Man, that's great news! Sounds like low end torque is a lot better too.
I was wondering if starting in "L" would make a difference. It seems to with ours.
 
This is awesome - great mods going on here. Glad to hear you can now safely merge into high-speed highway traffic...the CVT doesn't provide much room for error in that field haha. Good stuff!
 
During the pre-game show for the Superbowl, I noticed there was very little traffic in my area so I decided to try a couple quick 0-60 runs a.) starting with a Launch, and b.) shifting from Low gear to Drive.

For the first time I was able to spin the front tires, then went on to record an 8.0 followed by a 7.8 Second 0-60 time. This is the fastest recorded time for a Patriot, let alone a 4x4 model with CVT and FDII group.

Since this style of driving is new to me, I need to spend some time trying to find the optimal RPM at which to launch and when to best shift from 'L' to 'D'. Hence, the best 0-60 time could be yet to come..

Of course, these new 0-60 numbers confirm that my original estimation of adding 'at least' 23.4 Horsepower were indeed conservative. Going from 10 to 7.8 Seconds (0-60 time), I have shaved roughly 2.0-2.2 Seconds off from stock time, 'despite loosing power at the wheels' from the oversized tires.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
That's great news. As for optimum launch rpm, I'm curious about how these CVT transmissions, and the torque converters they use, work. Did you notice a point at which the rpms would raise no further when you had your foot on the brake and giving it throttle? There should be a stall speed at which the revs cannot go any higher, assuming you're holding the vehicle in place with the brake, with the vehicle in gear. I would assume the maximum rpm you can launch at (without too much tire spin of course) would be optimal, since these motors make peak torque at fairly high RPM.

Also, I have a couple questions for you. First of all, how noticeable is this extra power in everyday driving? If it's useful low-end torque then I am very interested in these modifications. Also, did B&G recommend a different octane fuel for this tune? Thanks!
 
Just did some times. Stock 2011 patriot fd1- avg 9.8s... Used the scangauge II


Jeep Patriot 2011 4x4, sound system, towing package, tinted windows...
Maybe I missed it, but do you have a CVT or 5 speed manual?
 
For those who are interested I spoke with B&G and right now there isn't a handheld tuner that supports the Patriot. So for me, the next best thing is buying another PCM and have it flashed and keep the original as it is. Doesn't look too hard to change them out. So far the cost for a new PCM looks to be around $200-$350 and the cost to have B&G program it would be $350.
 
Discussion starter · #136 · (Edited)
..Did you notice a point at which the rpms would raise no further when you had your foot on the brake and giving it throttle?
A: Yes. I wanna say somewhere between 1700-2000K RPM.

..how noticeable is this extra power in everyday driving? If it's useful low-end torque then I am very interested in these modifications.
A: The difference in everyday driving is HUGE, which is again the main reason I began the Patriot Project and feel completely justified with the expense and satisfied with the results.

Finally, I can get a quick step on other drivers in traffic. Throttle response is noticeably better, allowing me to get ahead of other drivers from a complete stop, for instance when a red light turns green. The low-end from around 1250-2500K or so seems the least noticeable. Although, whenever you 'mash it' wide open throttle (WOT) by putting the pedal to the floor, the new B&G Performance Tune tells it to richen the Air/Fuel mixture after the engine goes from Closed Loop to Open, which adds a little something to the aforementioned low end. However, in more typical/realistic driving, most of the difference is felt 'primarily' at middle and high RPM, and some at the very bottom of the low end. Oh, but the Low gear by itself does feel quicker. It makes me think the gearing on the FDII specifically is the main bottleneck, like it was intended for towing. This might also explain the improvement in 0-60 time when I used the low gear.

Note: the CVT is frustrating and unpredictable while trying to obtain a good shift done manually from 'Low' to 'Drive'. It seems the pedal needs to be kept just under WOT load while in Low gear and should be shifted just before it reaches a certain RPM, then go full WOT after being shifted to 'Drive' in order for the CVT to get optimal 0-60 times.

..did B&G recommend a different octane fuel for this tune? Thanks!
A: No, but I have been using 93' Octane since my first Synthetic oil change.(I'll do anything reasonable to extend it's lifetime.) Where I live, gas is less expensive, meaning a smaller premium.(about 5-6% more than regular)

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
Discussion starter · #137 · (Edited)
For those who are interested I spoke with B&G and right now there isn't a handheld tuner that supports the Patriot. So for me, the next best thing is buying another PCM and have it flashed and keep the original as it is. Doesn't look too hard to change them out. So far the cost for a new PCM looks to be around $200-$350 and the cost to have B&G program it would be $350.
Yes, the PCM is VERY easy to take out and put back in. This is coming from a guy with little automotive knowledge outside of what I've learned throughout this project.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
SpacePoliceman, a couple of questions:

1. Have you tried using the 4Lo Lock range? Curious if it improved any.

2. Do you know if B&G can erase a PCM of the same part number from another vehicle and reprogram it with your VIN? I forgot to ask when I talked to B&G last time. I'm finding used PCMs with the same part number for in some cases less than half the cost of new.
 
Discussion starter · #139 · (Edited)
1. Have you tried using the 4Lo Lock range? Curious if it improved any.
A: No, but I will certainly try now that you have mentioned it. It might help with the tire slippage when launching from Low gear.

2. Do you know if B&G can erase a PCM of the same part number from another vehicle and reprogram it with your VIN? I forgot to ask when I talked to B&G last time. I'm finding used PCMs with the same part number for in some cases less than half the cost of new.
A: Hmm, I really dunno. Logically, I would think that the functionality has to be there for Chrysler to update VIN numbers after replacing PCMs. If a dealer can do it, I don't see why B&G couldn't, especially considering that Chrysler engineers have previously said what B&G Performance has accomplished so many times couldn't be done to their ECUs. I would imagine the equipment they have can do what the dealership does and much more.

*Besides, updating the VIN might be pointless. Think about it.. If you find a cheap PCM on eBay, you can simply send in that one for the tune and keep your original as a backup. Plus, you can easily swap out the Tuned PCM with your original one containing your valid VIN number before taking it to the dealer anytime you need service. Seriously, this is a 5-10 minute install.

In my case, I actually rented a car while B&G Performance was actively developing a tune for our Patriot using the PCM I sent them.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
Discussion starter · #140 · (Edited)
Just did some times. Stock 2011 patriot fd1- avg 9.8s... Used the scangauge II

Try running your Patriot again after setting Monitoring to 'OFF' under performance monitor. I know, it doesn't make sense, but it just refers to the ScanGauge displaying the data on screen after you ARM it. Why do this? Because the ScanGuage doesn't have much in terms of memory, or processing hardware. When Monitoring is set to 'ON' under Performance Monitor it winds up multi-tasking, by displaying the output in semi real-time, while simultaneously analyzing and recording data from your run. To make a long story short, when the SG is taxed it adds slight lag to your time.
I didn't notice this until I was screwing around with it the other day. Although it may appear the ScanGauge is not recording your run, it actually is. It simply does not 'display' it during your run. Just save your data in a slot as usual and step through it to see the results.

Note, after making this change, I randomly recorded one run than was a full second lower, so I just disregarded it completely until I get more time to test this recent discovery. Unless I can replicate times like this 'consistently', I will continue to discard the more random ones like it. I would appreciate it if you let me know if you see a big difference.(thx)

By the way, all my previously reported times were done with Monitoring set to 'ON' (under Performance Monitor) so I could see the times 'during' each run. Plus, it provides more conservative numbers, not best case scenario stats. On the other hand, this also means that the times we've been reporting with the ScanGauge could very well be better. I will play with it some more myself, soon.

{-Stop the financial terrorists.. Crash JP Morgan, Buy SILVER!-}
 
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