The struggles of FD1 vs FD2

UA_who · Jun 3, 2011

Sandstone said:
But maybe this can't happen on the CVT2.

If only that was true. The FDII can have "stuck cow" syndrome too.
Situations where the BLD is in full effect and is locking down some wheels just consumes more power than the little 2.4L engine can afford. Leaving not enough power to climb over your obstacle.

Sandstone · Jun 3, 2011

I know the CVT2L can from personal experience.

I was talking about whether or not the same thing could happen on the CVT2 FD1. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

UA_who said:
If only that was true. The FDII can have "stuck cow" syndrome too.
Situations where the BLD is in full effect and is locking down some wheels just consumes more power than the little 2.4L engine can afford. Leaving not enough power to climb over your obstacle.

MrMischief · Jun 3, 2011

ColoradoMan said:
Its going to be a bit before I can post that video, I am leaving for moab soon

I hate you

RHill · Jun 4, 2011

ColoradoMan said:
Last weekend I went offroading with another member from this forum...

I really haven't found the need for the FD2's extra oil cooler. My engine never heated up that much eventhough I pushed it to 5-6k rpms...

You say your engine never heated up that much. Do you have an oil temperature gauge? I am guessing you were looking at the coolant temperature gauge. The coolant temperature gauge does not show the oil temperature. It shows the temperature of the engine coolant which is circulated through the radiator with an electric fan pulling air through the radiator.

In the U.S., we use 5W-20 viscosity oil which loses lubricating capability at high temperature.

FWIW and YMMV.

Tyler-98-W68 · Jun 4, 2011

I'll bring up my thread here

Fact is the FDII Bld's are far more agressive than FDI, i know this because all FDII's behave exactly like FDI pats (bld wise) unless in the FDII specific low range.

TJ99er · Jun 4, 2011

todde702 said:
I was thinking the same thing. I'll bet a CVT FDI would have handled the clutch smoking parts of the trail a lot better.

There are many comp rock crawlers who still use manuals... I would say for anything other then rock crawling, a manual would do just fine. I have never had any issues.

todde702 · Jun 4, 2011

TJ99er said:
There are many comp rock crawlers who still use manuals... I would say for anything other then rock crawling, a manual would do just fine. I have never had any issues.

True, but you're talking about big 11" clutches and nice heavy flywheels, neither of which the Patriot 5-Speed has (or could have). There are a lot of "smoking clutch" threads here which leads me to believe the clutch on the Patriot is barely strong enough to do it's job.

RHill · Jun 4, 2011

Most of those manual tranny rock crawlers have compound low transfer cases. I would expect competition ones to have low (high numerically) differentials with locking (not limited slip) differentials also.

I bought my 5MT because I knew I wouldn't be doing rock crawling. The low gear in the Patriot 5MT is enough to get a trailer whose weight is within the owner's manual limits moving on level ground. If I were doing rock crawling or pulling a boat out of the water, I would have gotten the CVT for its torque converter.

My trailer tow prep package includes the oil cooler, which ups the towing rating from 1000 to 2000 pounds. I think the oil cooler is a benefit in the six month summertime we have in South Texas, whether I am towing or not.

I'm still not sure if the 5MT was the best choice. The CVT has more discreet controllable ratios than the 5MT. My 2008 Lifetime powertrain warranty does not cover the clutch. It would have covered all of the CVT.

FWIW and YMMV.

Sandstone · Jun 4, 2011

Tyler-98-W68 said:
I'll bring up my thread here

Fact is the FDII Bld's are far more agressive than FDI, i know this because all FDII's behave exactly like FDI pats (bld wise) unless in the FDII specific low range.

I would tend to agree. If memory serves, I tried to go over the first rock obstacle in Lo (not locked), but the wheels just spun, the back tires burning rubber on the rocks. In Lo/locked, it went right up over it. Not only a difference in how wheel spin is handled, but the "gearing" is lower as well.

TJ99er · Jun 4, 2011

RHill said:
I'm still not sure if the 5MT was the best choice. The CVT has more discreet controllable ratios than the 5MT.

the best choice is whatever you enjoy the most... I refuse to buy auto's simply because they bore me.

RHill · Jun 5, 2011

TJ99er said:
the best choice is whatever you enjoy the most... I refuse to buy auto's simply because they bore me.

Manuals are definitely more enjoyable. I learned on the family 1959 Chevy pickup with a three speed manual, including double clutching into first. My Patriot is my seventh car with a manual, plus half a dozen motorcycles.

But, the CVT Auto Stick may have the best of both worlds. I wish I had a gear in between fourth and fifth, since I frequently drive in the Hill Country northwest of San Antonio.

Tony1911 · Jun 6, 2011

Sandstone said:
I know the CVT2L can from personal experience.

I was talking about whether or not the same thing could happen on the CVT2 FD1. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Yes it can. Been there, sat there with the throttle on the floor with nothing happening. Happy times... :icon_rolleyes:

TJ99er said:
There are many comp rock crawlers who still use manuals...

And do these competitive rock crawlers use vehicles with no transfer case? No? Slightly different situation then, wouldn't you say so?

TJ99er · Jun 6, 2011

Tony1911 said:
And do these competitive rock crawlers use vehicles with no transfer case? No? Slightly different situation then, wouldn't you say so?

I was talking more about the act of using manual, not the mechanics behind it. But you are correct... lol

Sandstone · Jun 6, 2011

Tony1911 said:
Yes it can. Been there, sat there with the throttle on the floor with nothing happening. Happy times... :icon_rolleyes:

That being the case, perhaps it's a bit of a toss up. The 5M lacks the torque converter but can't be disabled by the computer. The CVT has the torque converter, but you never know when it will go "stuck cow", thus negating whatever edge it may have had.

dixiedawg · Jun 6, 2011

Mine would sit and do nothing after all four tires would spin, but I haven't noticed that if I have the ESP full off.

ColoradoMan · Jun 6, 2011

I am thinking that the cvt for fd1 wouldn't be able to make it up some of the stuff I did over the weekend. There was a point where I had it floored in first gear with the clutch complete attached (foot not on clutch at all) and I was barely able to make it over those rocks. If the first gear was just a bit higher like in the cvt for fd1 I probably wouldn't have been able to get over that rock unless I got the "running start"

todde702 said:
FDI CVT has a 14:1 low (1st) gear, Manual in 1st gear is 15:1 so they are both close (FDII is 19:1 with CVT). However, the torque converter will give torque multiplication where the manual clutch will not (thats effective power to the wheels and not altering the ratio - Think of it like a pulley system where more pulleys make it easier to lift a load).

Sandstone · Jun 6, 2011

dixiedawg said:
Mine would sit and do nothing after all four tires would spin, but I haven't noticed that if I have the ESP full off.

Yeah, I agree turning the ESP off does make a difference, then other times it seems like not as much.

I wish I could take a day just to play with that aspect of it and try to figure out if there is a solid pattern. But then I suppose just when I think I've figured it out the adaptives will start changing the rules. D@mn computer games....

ColoradoMan · Jun 6, 2011

I always put esp off when i offroad or my engine will stall if I try anything with a lack of traction.

Sandstone said:
Yeah, I agree turning the ESP off does make a difference, then other times it seems like not as much.

I wish I could take a day just to play with that aspect of it and try to figure out if there is a solid pattern. But then I suppose just when I think I've figured it out the adaptives will start changing the rules. D@mn computer games....

Tony1911 · Jun 7, 2011

Sandstone said:
That being the case, perhaps it's a bit of a toss up. The 5M lacks the torque converter but can't be disabled by the computer. The CVT has the torque converter, but you never know when it will go "stuck cow", thus negating whatever edge it may have had.

I don't know about that. While the CVT does do the "stuck cow routine", if you can just get a small nudge from someone - your spotter, girlfriend, random small squirrel in the forest, whatever - you can get moving again. Worst case scenario, you might actually have to deploy some of that recovery gear. With the clutch, once it's worn to the point that it starts slipping, that both affects your ability to drive home and costs a bit of money to replace.

(Not that I am implying that one would be likely to destroy a clutch completely during a single outing, merely that if the clutch is somewhat worn already when one starts down the trail, it might start slipping with a bit unfortunate timing.)

Then again, I do like the idea of the vehicle actually doing what I bloody well tell it to do...

Still, two pedals, two feet - sounds like a plan to me.

ColoradoMan said:
I am thinking that the cvt for fd1 wouldn't be able to make it up some of the stuff I did over the weekend. There was a point where I had it floored in first gear with the clutch complete attached (foot not on clutch at all) and I was barely able to make it over those rocks. If the first gear was just a bit higher like in the cvt for fd1 I probably wouldn't have been able to get over that rock unless I got the "running start"

Hmm. Is the gearing really different enough to make any perceptible difference?

Sandstone · Jun 7, 2011

Tony1911 said:
I don't know about that. While the CVT does do the "stuck cow routine", if you can just get a small nudge from someone - your spotter, girlfriend, random small squirrel in the forest, whatever - you can get moving again. Worst case scenario, you might actually have to deploy some of that recovery gear. With the clutch, once it's worn to the point that it starts slipping, that both affects your ability to drive home and costs a bit of money to replace.

(Not that I am implying that one would be likely to destroy a clutch completely during a single outing, merely that if the clutch is somewhat worn already when one starts down the trail, it might start slipping with a bit unfortunate timing.)

Then again, I do like the idea of the vehicle actually doing what I bloody well tell it to do... Still, two pedals, two feet - sounds like a plan to me.

Hmm. Is the gearing really different enough to make any perceptible difference?

I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but in the case of a small nudge, couldn't that also apply to the 5M? And if a small nudge is all the CVT needs, wouldn't a small difference in gearing on the 5M be enough to tip the scales in it's favor?

I dunno. That's why I'm saying it's sort of a toss up.

I also agree about having the vehicle do what you want when it's told to. That's partly why I still have a '78 Chevy K10. It's an auto, no computer, no lockout hubs to go bad, and my wife can drive it. Now if it would just get the MPG of the Pat. lol

The struggles of FD1 vs FD2

UA_who

Sandstone

MrMischief

RHill

Tyler-98-W68

TJ99er

todde702

RHill

Sandstone

TJ99er

RHill

Tony1911

TJ99er

Sandstone

dixiedawg

ColoradoMan

Sandstone

ColoradoMan

Tony1911

Sandstone

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