Jeep Patriot Forums banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

The struggles of FD1 vs FD2

Jump to Latest
21 - 40 of 67 Posts
#22 ·
FDII comparison to basic wrangler?
i think years ago basic wranglers were that, Very Basic,
i remember the $8k wranglers and EVERYTHING was extra , carpet, ashtray, defrosters, everything,
today a basic 4x4 wrangler is pretty much loaded,
so can see patriot being CLOSE to BASIC wrangler of years ago,
but todays basic 4x4 wranglers are not very basic,
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Yep I agree, this is what I was trying to say.

Terasec said:
FDII comparison to basic wrangler?
i think years ago basic wranglers were that, Very Basic,
i remember the $8k wranglers and EVERYTHING was extra , carpet, ashtray, defrosters, everything,
today a basic 4x4 wrangler is pretty much loaded,
so can see patriot being CLOSE to BASIC wrangler of years ago,
but todays basic 4x4 wranglers are not very basic,
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
I actually attempted a road like this over the winter. It was a trail that had a sign on it that said road was impassible in winter. I decided to just back out and not go very far because I know that people use it for cross country skiing and I didn't want to make ruts in their snow.

dixiedawg said:
This is Butch and Todd going up a small part of my driveway winter before last.

Click to expand...
 
#26 ·
I might avoid it if I could, and I use tire chains when I need to too. Sometimes it;s overkill, but only takes 5-10 minutes to throw them on, and takes longer to get unstuck, so I often just don;t take a chance and throw them on. I often take them off in the garage though, don;t usually need them going back down.
 
#27 ·
dixiedawg said:
This is Butch and Todd going up a small part of my driveway winter before last.

Click to expand...
This was a fun outing! And trust me folks, the video doesn't really show how steep certain sections of that run actually were. I'm the silver one going first and I had it in 4x4 lock, esp off and the CVT in 1st gear. I was turning a constant 3500-4000 rpm and got a running start at it from the road. Originally Butch went first but he didn't attack it aggressively enough at first and got stuck a few times and we both had to back out (I had caught up to him, then I got stuck when I stopped).
 
#28 ·
ColoradoMan said:
I think the main thing that really lags in FD1 is the lack of low gearing. There was 2 obstacles where I was definitely burning my cluch
Click to expand...
Well to be fair, it's not just the slightly lower gearing, but also the fact that the FDII is an automatic transmission. (In fact it would be interesting to get you behind an automatic transmission FDI and have you repeat that trip... :) )

ColoradoMan said:
FD2 has those break locks which are better but I really don't believe they are better by much. They also seem to give some trouble with locking up too much. The FD1 system works great. It will have tires spinning in the air at times but still can supply enough power to the tires on the ground to get over things.
Click to expand...
If you have video proof of an FDI with brakes acting in a limited slip differential type capacity, I would LOVE to see that. My own experiences are pretty dismal on a cross-axle hang-up situation - once those wheels lift off the ground, forward movement stops there.

Example of Freedom Drive II brake lock differentials in action:


I think that's a pretty big difference from an FDI. (Granted, that video displays the advantages of the lower gearing as well, so it's not perhaps the fairest possible comparison. But it's the only one I could think of at short notice.)
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#29 ·

yay brake locks! driver says he was in 4 low, a commenter thinks he wasn't. I don't know, I'm not a fan of brake locks over a traditional limited slip like a torsen. I've seen, and experienced, brake lock vehicles stuck in situations where if a traditional limited slip had been employed there would be no issue. Most of these were off road, but one was in my Charger trying to go up a friend's gravel driveway. Now granted in the Charger I didn't want to spin the tire, dig a hole and throw rocks all over my paint, but only the right rear was turning.... I backed up and used a bit more momentum to get through it.

The open diffs with the tap dancing brakes works better then just an open diff, but at low speeds where the tires have significantly different levels of traction they seem to behave just like a standard open diff. If it's just the rear giving you problems use the parking brake to help, if the front axel is also having problems you can ride the brakes to help, very annoying to do without an auto and in a vehicle like the FDI with its tall street gearing.
 
#30 ·
I would prefer front and rear lockers, but the Patriot is a compromise. Good on the road, and good mileage were also important to me.

I still think the Patriot is a lot more capable than a lot of folks give it credit for.
 
#31 ·
Tony1911 said:
Well to be fair, it's not just the slightly lower gearing, but also the fact that the FDII is an automatic transmission. (In fact it would be interesting to get you behind an automatic transmission FDI and have you repeat that trip... :) )
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same thing. I'll bet a CVT FDI would have handled the clutch smoking parts of the trail a lot better.
 
#32 ·
How does the CVT allow for slipping? Does it have a traditional torque convert or does it do something else, like disengage a clutch electronically or release tension on the belt (chain?) so the two cones in the CVT can free wheel? Maybe it does some fancy thing I don't even know about?
 
#33 ·
MrMischief said:
How does the CVT allow for slipping? Does it have a traditional torque convert or does it do something else, like disengage a clutch electronically or release tension on the belt (chain?) so the two cones in the CVT can free wheel? Maybe it does some fancy thing I don't even know about?
Click to expand...
From what I've gathered it has a locking torque converter "similar" to a standard auto. http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/CVT.html
 
#34 ·
Std torque converter is correct. And on the FDII with the lower gearing, this means the actual available torque at the wheels at low RPM is significantly higher than the 5-sp manual FD1.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I have a feeling if I attempted the same rough section with a fd1 pat with an automatic, it probably would have done even worse. I was able to get more torque out of my pat by slipping the cluch. In a fd1 pat with an auto this would not have been possible. I have a feeling that it would have just not had the torque to make it up the section I had trouble with. So in the end the fd2 low gearing was much better than probably the fd1 auto. I was able to "replicate the low gearing" by revving my engine and letting the cluch slip (and burn up a bit too :( )
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
I actually do have a video of my fd1 going over those rocks with wheels spinning in the air. I will have to take another look at it to see if the traction control actually did anything. I would think that it would have to have done something or I wouldn't have enough torque going to the other wheels to get over the rock.


Tony1911 said:
Well to be fair, it's not just the slightly lower gearing, but also the fact that the FDII is an automatic transmission. (In fact it would be interesting to get you behind an automatic transmission FDI and have you repeat that trip... :) )



If you have video proof of an FDI with brakes acting in a limited slip differential type capacity, I would LOVE to see that. My own experiences are pretty dismal on a cross-axle hang-up situation - once those wheels lift off the ground, forward movement stops there.

Example of Freedom Drive II brake lock differentials in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRMXt9QCiyw

I think that's a pretty big difference from an FDI. (Granted, that video displays the advantages of the lower gearing as well, so it's not perhaps the fairest possible comparison. But it's the only one I could think of at short notice.)
Click to expand...
 
#37 ·
Unless 1st gear in the manual is much lower then the lowest setting in the CVT of FDI, I'll always put my money on an auto. A torque converter "slipping" is much better at getting over obstacles then a person slipping a clutch in a manual. It's also much more difficult to damage a torque converter doing this compared to a clutch.

Post up this video man! We wanna see
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Its going to be a bit before I can post that video, I am leaving for moab soon :)


MrMischief said:
Unless 1st gear in the manual is much lower then the lowest setting in the CVT of FDI, I'll always put my money on an auto. A torque converter "slipping" is much better at getting over obstacles then a person slipping a clutch in a manual. It's also much more difficult to damage a torque converter doing this compared to a clutch.

Post up this video man! We wanna see
Click to expand...
 
#39 ·
MrMischief said:
Unless 1st gear in the manual is much lower then the lowest setting in the CVT of FDI, I'll always put my money on an auto. A torque converter "slipping" is much better at getting over obstacles then a person slipping a clutch in a manual. It's also much more difficult to damage a torque converter doing this compared to a clutch.

Post up this video man! We wanna see
Click to expand...
FDI CVT has a 14:1 low (1st) gear, Manual in 1st gear is 15:1 so they are both close (FDII is 19:1 with CVT). However, the torque converter will give torque multiplication where the manual clutch will not (thats effective power to the wheels and not altering the ratio - Think of it like a pulley system where more pulleys make it easier to lift a load).
 
#40 ·
todde702 said:
FDI CVT has a 14:1 low (1st) gear, Manual in 1st gear is 15:1 so they are both close (FDII is 19:1 with CVT). However, the torque converter will give torque multiplication where the manual clutch will not (thats effective power to the wheels and not altering the ratio - Think of it like a pulley system where more pulleys make it easier to lift a load).
Click to expand...
Which should work fine unless the computer jumps to the "Stuck Cow" routine:
No movement, rpm=1800, no wheel spin, etc.

But maybe this can't happen on the CVT2.
 
21 - 40 of 67 Posts
About this Discussion
66 Replies
17 Participants
Last post:
Tyler-98-W68
Jeep Patriot Forums
posts
678K
members
55K
Since
2006
Join our community to discuss the Jeep Patriot & Jeep Compass. Find answers to all your Jeep Patriot technical questions.
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Jeep Patriot General Discussion Engine and Drivetrain Newbie Check-In Suspension and Tires Electrical and Audio