Who uses 5w20 and who uses 5w30 oil?

Wooden Dog · Sep 5, 2010

"Common knowledge" is not fact.
If you have any actual data that supports your statement, post it.
I've looked at dozens of UOA's and never seem anything to indicate that a 5W-30 is superior to a 5W-20 in engines that spec the latter.
Terry Dyson is probably one of the most knowledgeable people around about oil and how it affects and protects engines, and he is very clear when saying 5W-20's are not only as good as , but in many cases superior.

roberttroll · Sep 6, 2010

Cant believe this is still going on....

Not to worry folks because the engine in our Pats will LONG outlive the transmissions.

Google "Nissan Rogue CVT rattle" exact same noises i am getting now. 32K miles. But hey the engine runs great!

Wooden Dog · Sep 6, 2010

Glad to have a 5-speed in mine.

todde702 · Sep 6, 2010

Wooden Dog, I don't get why you're so gung-ho on proving that 5W-20 is the only oil one should be using. There is plenty of Pro/Con data out there that supports both sides and the very nature of it's classification says it's a thinner oil at a certain temperature. If you go above that temp the oil gets very, very thin and by API standards should not be used for those situations. Do our jeeps ever encounter that temp? I don't know. But let's look at engine temps...

Consider that Jeep runs these engines very cool, with a main stat opening temp of 180 deg. F and a secondary that opens at 203 deg. F. (suggesting they really don't want them getting much hotter then that). Most vehicles run a single 195 Deg. F thermostat and easily run at 210-220 deg. F. Couple that with the fact that in order to tow 2000 lbs. (which is not a lot of towing weight) they require an engine oil cooler. Again, they want temps as low as possible. I'd stake money that any vehicles spec'd to use 5W-20 from the factory run lower temp. T-stats, and if they do, then we know they may be compensating the temp for the thinner oil.
At a glance, I find:
170 deg. F for Hondas spec'd for 5W20, 170!? Brrr, My old Saturn had a stuck open thermostat and sputtered at a barely attainable 160 deg.
180 deg. F for Ford Taurus and 2005 Mustang GT (5W-20)

195 deg. F 2005 Mustang V6 (spec'd for 5w-30)

Maybe not definitive proof, but it's got to make you think. You can't start using a thinner oil with out other system changes in the design (like lowering the normal operating temp of the motor).

PS: I'm not looking for a fight or trying to get you upset, these are just my observations and what not. Obviously Jeep designed the entire power module to run as a complete system and so long as it all works correctly, you'll likely never have any issue regardless of 5w20 or 5w30. I think it's almost a moot point, but there is some interesting differences in regards to OE engine operating temperature and oil weight no?

Wooden Dog · Sep 6, 2010

My gung ho-ness or whatever isn't to try and prove that 5W-20 is all you need, but to correct false information that tends to get treated as gospel. The so-called recommendation from Chrysler Canada letter is a good example. It doesn't in any way say that Chrysler recommends 5W-30, yet people have said it does.
There is no actual evidence that engines running 5W-20 are less protected or wear more than engines running 5W-30.
Also, if you want "more protection" because an oil is thicker, anything situation you'd run across with 5W-20 that would cause failure isn't going to be prevented by having 5W-30 in there instead.
If there's actual proof (by which I mean hard data, not anecdotal stories, or "common knowledge) otherwise, I'm ready to look at it.

The difference in 5W-20 and 5W-30 at operating temps isn't that great anyway- around 8.5 as opposed to around 10. But the big benefit of the 5w20s is that they have a lot thinner viscosity at 40c - around 45, as opposed to 60-65 . Which means more oil flowing faster.
Most 5w-20 oils today are more shear stable than 5w-30's too.

roberttroll · Sep 7, 2010

I was the guy who started it all - Back a few years now?

Basically someone came on and said "5W-20 was created by the EPA to increase CAFE and causes increased engine wear as opposed to 5W-30"

Loving a good conspiracy I said PROVE IT.

What i got was the infamous CAFE letter.
A link to an opinion piece about oil viscosity.
The Chrysler Canada letter.
Talk about how 5W-20 was not available anywhere outside North America.

I showed that per the Clean Air Act the EPA regulates all automotive fluids in a vehicle. When a manufacturer recommends a new fluid, they have to show through test procedures that using that fluid will not INCREASE existing CAFE numbers. I also gave a link to a duplicate CAFE letter that dealt with Diesel engine lubricants.

I explained what an opinion was and what scientific tests were. I linked to the Society of Automotive Engineers which has several test papers on 5w-20. Their conclusions were no increased wear. Not a single scientific test has been put forth showing that 5W-20 increases engine wear. Just a lot of opinions stated as fact.

The Chrysler Canada letter i never disputed. I did call Chrysler America and they said "Your owners manual lists the proper fluids to use in your vehicle". I never said that 5W-30 will increase engine wear.

5W-20 has been shown to be available all across Europe and Australia. Several confirmations were given that it is indeed being used by dealers in both England and Australia.

I also put forth the history of 5W-20. How it was invented by Mobil. The first Mobil1 was 5W-20 in the 60's. I also listed the Ford technical documents where they put forth their increased test procedures. Even got into the nitty gritty of wear and shear stability tests. Bottom line is the Ford spec calls for a double life wear test. All 5W-20 that i have ever seen in stores has met or exceeded the Ford Spec. I also gave links to Ford message groups about how Ford was having problems with top end scavenging with their Triton V10's and introduced the thinner oil to solve that issue. Also note that the Triton V-10 resides in vehicles that are designed for heavy duty applications and are CAFE exempt.

I said that modern engines are designed with tighter clearances and require a thinner oil with better wear properties. That was met with calls of "bulls*&t".
So i linked to technical articles on the workings of the Chrysler and Ford MDS system. How they require the use of 5W-20, and not using it can cause engine malfunctions. Also note that these engines are used in fleet vehicles (police/cabs) which are in use 24x7 in amazingly harsh environments.

The engines that you point out that run hotter are of an older design. ALL newer engines run cooler. This is a product of better design/manufacturing/metallurgy. They require a thinner oil with better wear properties that can circulate faster. This provides better cooling. The whole point is really mute because the car was designed to tow 2000lbs max. Going over that and something ELSE will break. Not your engine.

People need to toss the notion of thinner/thicker. You need to think engine design/flow/stability. This is not 1950 when the only measure of oils performance was API scale. I also pointed out the great range of the api scale and how some 5W-30's are right in line with some 5W-20's. For all practical purposes API is simply a branding tag to make things easier for the modern consumer.

There is so much more that i left out. Some of my fav highlights include one user who created a new account so he could give the allusion that someone agreed with him. (Yeah i knew it was obvious). There was also another guy who had long long run on sentences babbling about diesel engines and long haul trucking.

Engine OIL gets people fired up. I think that is because it is the one thing that we as owners can do easily ourselves. Everyone has a strong opinion. Yet ask someone "So how often do you change your transmission fluid or transfer case fluid?" They just kinda go blank. They will tell you "Well the transmission is sealed, and there is fire in the engine, bla bla bla.." A modern engine will long outlast almost every other component in a car, even if heavily abused.

Reality is if people thought there was any truth to the CAFE conspiracy they would be dumping their transmission fluid and going back to old type F. After all the majority of losses are through the drive line. Come to think of it my CVT is toast. I bet that Chrysler CVT fluid doesn't protect well enough. They just put the thin stuff in to meet CAFE standards. Type F protects better. And the circle of logic goes on and on and on... Why don't people change their transmission fluid? Because it is not easy to do in your driveway plan and simple.

Oh and don't forget - You guys ever top off your radiator? If you have not wait till you go looking for HOAT antifreeze. Guy at the auto parts store actually told me that "Prestone cant say compatible with Chrysler for legal reasons" My response was "Oh yeah then why does that bottle say "GM Approved". Must be a conspiracy there. Hint only NAPA carries it.

Neither Wooden Dog nor myself ever claimed that 5W-30 would hurt your engine. We never claimed that 5W-20 was a miracle elixir either. I told people to run maple syrup, i don't care. It has always been about proving the simple often repeated blanket statement that "5W-20 increases engine wear". No proof of that has ever been posted here or on any other board.

Been fun folks really has - I love this little Jeep. Especially in winter. Will let you know about my CVT tomorrow. I can tell you one thing. My engine sure runs great though. Quiet as a mouse until i put it in gear.....

Hitzy · Sep 7, 2010

Wooden Dog said:
My gung ho-ness or whatever isn't to try and prove that 5W-20 is all you need, but to correct false information that tends to get treated as gospel. The so-called recommendation from Chrysler Canada letter is a good example. It doesn't in any way say that Chrysler recommends 5W-30, yet people have said it does.
There is no actual evidence that engines running 5W-20 are less protected or wear more than engines running 5W-30.
Also, if you want "more protection" because an oil is thicker, anything situation you'd run across with 5W-20 that would cause failure isn't going to be prevented by having 5W-30 in there instead.
If there's actual proof (by which I mean hard data, not anecdotal stories, or "common knowledge) otherwise, I'm ready to look at it.

The difference in 5W-20 and 5W-30 at operating temps isn't that great anyway- around 8.5 as opposed to around 10. But the big benefit of the 5w20s is that they have a lot thinner viscosity at 40c - around 45, as opposed to 60-65 . Which means more oil flowing faster.
Most 5w-20 oils today are more shear stable than 5w-30's too.

HTHS....the most important number that you have left out.

The High Temperature/High Shear Test measures a lubricant’s viscosity under severe high temperature and shear conditions that resemble highly-loaded journal bearings in fired internal combustion engines. In order to prevent bearing wear, it is important for a lubricant to maintain its protective viscosity under severe operating conditions.

The minimum for a 30w is 2.9, but usually you will find them over 3.
Min for 20w is 2.6, and only Redline makes a 5w20 with HTHS over 3 that I know of.
2.4-2.6 is generally considered the minimum acceptable limit for normal wear, and below 2.2 wear increases much faster.
I prefer to have that extra buffer when I'm towing....you know, higher heat...higher load on the engine

My gung ho-ness or whatever isn't to try and prove that 5W-20 is all you need, but to correct false information that tends to get treated as gospel. The so-called recommendation from Chrysler Canada letter is a good example. It doesn't in any way say that Chrysler recommends 5W-30, yet people have said it does.

Playing semantics over "recommended" and "approved" is a fairly childish arguement BTW and not helping your case.

Hitzy · Sep 7, 2010

robertroll:

Oh and don't forget - You guys ever top off your radiator? If you have not wait till you go looking for HOAT antifreeze. Guy at the auto parts store actually told me that "Prestone cant say compatible with Chrysler for legal reasons" My response was "Oh yeah then why does that bottle say "GM Approved". Must be a conspiracy there. Hint only NAPA carries it.

Walmart carries it too, Zerex G5 at about $11 a gallon.

Wooden Dog · Sep 7, 2010

Hitzy said:
HTHS....the most important number that you have left out.

The minimum for a 30w is 2.9, but usually you will find them over 3.
Min for 20w is 2.6, and only Redline makes a 5w20 with HTHS over 3 that I know of.
2.4-2.6 is generally considered the minimum acceptable limit for normal wear, and below 2.2 wear increases much faster.
I prefer to have that extra buffer when I'm towing....you know, higher heat...higher load on the engine

Playing semantics over "recommended" and "approved" is a fairly childish arguement BTW and not helping your case.

So, you choose to ignore everything Roberttroll wrote above? No commenrts about Ford's (and Honda's for that matter) exhaustive testing and strict standards?
Are you going to be towing anything in any heat hotter than that in Death Vallety?

BTW I'm not playing semantics with your letter. You just totally misrepresent what it says.

roberttroll · Sep 7, 2010

The minimum for a 30w is 2.9, but usually you will find them over 3.
Min for 20w is 2.6, and only Redline makes a 5w20 with HTHS over 3 that I know of.
2.4-2.6 is generally considered the minimum acceptable limit for normal wear, and below 2.2 wear increases much faster.
I prefer to have that extra buffer when I'm towing....you know, higher heat...higher load on the engine
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Here comes that circle of logic again.

A lighter oil will flow faster, providing less drag, more lubrication, and therefore LESS HEAT. So it will not need the higher number because the engine will stay cooler. You are also splitting hairs about individual manufacturers numbers. I hope you don't think a quart of 7-11 5W-30 is going to provide better numbers than Mobil 1 5W-20. Deja-vu?

You are also assuming that said engine is not designed to run a specific weight oil. Which we already went through ad-nauseam. This is the thread that never ends - yes it goes on and on my friend...

This thing is rated to tow 2000LBS max. Go over that and something else will FAIL before the engine does. Hey like my CVT. Cooked at 32k. That Chrysler CVT fluid is clearly a scam, way to thin. I am going to drain it and put in 5W-30.

And walmart around here does not carry Zerex.

Hitzy · Sep 7, 2010

Wooden Dog said:
So, you choose to ignore everything Roberttroll wrote above? No commenrts about Ford's (and Honda's for that matter) exhaustive testing and strict standards?
Are you going to be towing anything in any heat hotter than that in Death Vallety?

BTW I'm not playing semantics with your letter. You just totally misrepresent what it says.

Ford recently advised 10w40 instead of 5w20 in some of the 2008> 5.4L F150's..., Dodge has the same TSB for their Hemi's. This addresses the "engine was designed for 5w20, has tighter tolerances" arguement....but I'm not getting into that.
Rtroll has been in this debate from the start, and all of his points have been addressed in another thread, but if you want something to read, have at er, do a search!

My sole arguement on the issue is this:

The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.

You can try and spin that however you like.

tiptronic · Sep 7, 2010

After some research , webs , phone calls & blind ally's I have come to the conclusion that 5W30 is used in UK as 5W20 is not available or deemed necessary in UK.

todde702 · Sep 7, 2010

Wooden Dog said:
So, you choose to ignore everything Roberttroll wrote above? No commenrts about Ford's (and Honda's for that matter) exhaustive testing and strict standards?
Are you going to be towing anything in any heat hotter than that in Death Vallety?

BTW I'm not playing semantics with your letter. You just totally misrepresent what it says.

So roberttroll says 5W-20 is bob's uncle, but quoting an engineer from a machinery lubrication article comparing 20 to 30, and their known film rupture temps get's discounted? LOL...this conversation is bizarre. Both of you are saying 5W-20 protects as well or better then 5W-30...Makes me wonder why Mobile 1 would even still have a 5W-30, or a 5W-40 then!? Seems they should just make 5W-20 and be done with it. Speaking of which, 1974 was Mobil 1's intro as a single weight 5W oil.

Your other thoughts also don't make sense. Multi-viscosity oils have two numbers to represent cold flow and warm protection. So a 5W-20 and 5W-30 have the same cold flow rating...5! If they didn't, then one would be rated as 0 or 10. I get that there's an allowed range so one brands 5W oil may flow quicker at a slightly lower temp then another, but you still have the same rating.

Stonent · Sep 7, 2010

Two amusing Oil stories.

1: My uncle in the 1980s was trying to sell his El Camino that had cylinder damage and smoked like a chimney. He filled it with gear oil and passed it off to the first rube he could find.

2: My dad had a 1981 Nissan/Datsun 280Z that would not pass the TX emissions test because it was burning oil. So he drained the engine and filled striaght 50 weight it passed inspection and he drained it and put the regular oil back in.

Wooden Dog · Sep 7, 2010

Who said something about cold flow rating? The numbers I mentioned are for 40C and 100C.
Where's the data that shows higher wear with 5W20? Oh wait? There isn't any.
Here are a few interesting items.

http://www.carwashmag.com/pdf/sept_2005/thicker.cfm

http://www.f150forum.com/f38/5w-20-a-37894/

" There's a lot more to the 930 Ford spec concerning the 5w-20 than just CAFE. If you don't like the 5w-20 oils, just wait for the newer 0W-10 oils that are pretty much going to be mandatory with the ethanol fuels we are using. So lets chat about the 5w-20 oils. If you'll remember from high school chemistry class, a thinner fluid will absorb and release heat faster than a thicker fluid. The same works for your motor oil. It will absorb heat faster, get back to the pan faster where the heat is released and then get back on the job to do it all over again. The thinner oils will help your engine run cooler especially in summer heat or in heavy towing conditions. There are several specs that Ford implemented into their testing of approved oils that are far more stringent than that of API. Lets look at the IIIF test. It deals with oil thickening, piston deposits, valve train wear at high speeds, and high heat performance. The API approved test is 80 hours or to put it into perspective for you, it takes 2 weeks running the engine at 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The allowables per API are a viscosity increase of 375% and deposits of 45mg. The Ford spec calls for a viscosity increase of only 200% and deposits at 30mg over a DOUBLE length test which means 160 hours or 4 weeks with the engine running 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. So you can see that the Ford spec builds a pretty tough oil and not just any cheap basestock can be used to make the oil. It must have a Viscosity Index of about 147 to make it. That's into areas where synthetics were considered superior. So if you use an oil that meets the Ford spec, you have an oil that doesn't allow a lot of deposits, handles heat better than others, and isn't prone to shift out of it's respective viscosity range. Regardless of what you pay for an oil, if it wears the Ford spec, you can't buy a better oil for your Triton."

Hitzy · Sep 7, 2010

Wooden Dog said:
Who said something about cold flow rating? The numbers I mentioned are for 40C and 100C.
Where's the data that shows higher wear with 5W20? Oh wait? There isn't any.
Here are a few interesting items.

http://www.carwashmag.com/pdf/sept_2005/thicker.cfm

http://www.f150forum.com/f38/5w-20-a-37894/

" There's a lot more to the 930 Ford spec concerning the 5w-20 than just CAFE. If you don't like the 5w-20 oils, just wait for the newer 0W-10 oils that are pretty much going to be mandatory with the ethanol fuels we are using. So lets chat about the 5w-20 oils. If you'll remember from high school chemistry class, a thinner fluid will absorb and release heat faster than a thicker fluid. The same works for your motor oil. It will absorb heat faster, get back to the pan faster where the heat is released and then get back on the job to do it all over again. The thinner oils will help your engine run cooler especially in summer heat or in heavy towing conditions. There are several specs that Ford implemented into their testing of approved oils that are far more stringent than that of API. Lets look at the IIIF test. It deals with oil thickening, piston deposits, valve train wear at high speeds, and high heat performance. The API approved test is 80 hours or to put it into perspective for you, it takes 2 weeks running the engine at 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The allowables per API are a viscosity increase of 375% and deposits of 45mg. The Ford spec calls for a viscosity increase of only 200% and deposits at 30mg over a DOUBLE length test which means 160 hours or 4 weeks with the engine running 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. So you can see that the Ford spec builds a pretty tough oil and not just any cheap basestock can be used to make the oil. It must have a Viscosity Index of about 147 to make it. That's into areas where synthetics were considered superior. So if you use an oil that meets the Ford spec, you have an oil that doesn't allow a lot of deposits, handles heat better than others, and isn't prone to shift out of it's respective viscosity range. Regardless of what you pay for an oil, if it wears the Ford spec, you can't buy a better oil for your Triton."

Unless you get a "tick" then the TSB is to fill with 10w40....
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4117/dealerr.jpg

Wooden Dog · Sep 7, 2010

Once again, you are misstating what something says.

It does NOT say fill with 10W40 unless you get a tick. It says that if you do get a tick you can switch to 10W40.
It plainly says
"...Although this condition does not affect performance or durability of the engine, critical customers may elect to change oil with Motorcraft 10W40 Premium motor oil and Motorcraft oil filter to reduce the noise."

The noise in question being caused by VCT solenoids.

Hitzy · Sep 7, 2010

Wooden Dog said:
Once again, you are misstating what something says.

It does NOT say fill with 10W40 unless you get a tick. It says that if you do get a tick you can switch to 10W40.
It plainly says
"...Although this condition does not affect performance or durability of the engine, critical customers may elect to change oil with Motorcraft 10W40 Premium motor oil and Motorcraft oil filter to reduce the noise."

The noise in question being caused by VCT solenoids.

No it plainly says "fill with 5w20, if you get a tick that makes a brand new engine sound like an old worn out one, vocal customers may elect to change oil with Motorcraft 10W40 Premium motor oil and Motorcraft oil filter to reduce the noise"
So either Ford doesn't care that 10w40 goes in their engine, or they are unwilling to fix a known problem that 5w20 causes in an engine that is supposedly designed to only use 5w20......:smiley_thumbs_up:
Oh, and notice the temp rating for their 10w40.....-28celcius.....does it get that cold in the US other then Alaska?

Wooden Dog · Sep 7, 2010

Good God. Do you think the viscosity of oil causes a solenoid to make a tick? The heavier oil just muffles the sound of the tick, it doesn't make it stop.
Holy Crap.

"...a normal characteristic of the engine...."

"...Although this condition does not affect performance or durability of the engine, critical customers may elect to change oil with Motorcraft 10W40 Premium motor oil and Motorcraft oil filter to reduce the noise."

todde702 · Sep 8, 2010

I just spent a few hours scouring the internet for any ASTM D6891 IVA test results. Oddly, none are posted anywhere. Sure you can find marketing from different oil brands saying they had this or that result or Brand X was 4x better then Brand Y, but all of them are for 5W-30. Not a single IVA wear test can be found for 5W-20 to compare it to one from 5W-30 (of the same brand oil). Which means unless one of us are going to pony up the $20k per test, there isn't any proof to be cited for either side.

Who uses 5w20 and who uses 5w30 oil?

5w20 or 5w30?

5w20 Conventional

5w20 Synthetic

5w30 Conventional

5w30 Synthetic

Wooden Dog

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todde702

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Hitzy

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