4X4 All-Terrain Tyres Any Good in Snow?

PatriotUK · Dec 15, 2017

So I was going to invest in some winter tyres for my Patriot, but after talking to one of my local tyre places, they told me the cost for the tyres and rims or basically tyres + wheels everything incl, would amount to over £1,000 for four brand new fitted tyres/wheels/rims. That's a lot of money and considering we only get a snow event like that once every few years (or every 6, 7 years) in southern England, is there really much point?

Alternatively, given that I'm eager to try out this 4x4 off-road driving track day in January, I was told that it's not essential, but is certainly ideal and beneficial for me to have off-road tyres on my car, I then have to ask the question: Why not just get off-road tyres to deal with the snow (if it falls again), this winter?

I understand that off-road tyres aren't as good as proper winter tyres in the snow, but they're certainly better than ordinary summer tyres in the snow. So I asked the same tyre place above what the cost of fitting four brand new off-road tyres incl wheels/rims to my car would be, and I think the guy said around £500, which sounds a lot cheaper? Unless he was just talking about tyres, but I don't think so. Either way, he said that off-road tyres are better in the snow than summer tyres and then I can do the off-road driving I want to do with them.

He recommended I get some "General Grabber" tyres, but is going to email me with more details. Other off-road tyres I've seen recommended are the Cooper Discoverer STT Pro which have great reviews and funnily enough, I was in town today and saw a Wrangler (there isn't many jeeps in the UK, there's vastly more land rovers), and the Wrangler had those Cooper STT Pro tyres on, so they must be good!

I've also seen people recommend BFGoodrich Mud Terrain TA KM2
tyres. I'm sure I've seen you guys here recommend both the above tyres, but if you have any other suggestions or advice, please shout!

Cheers

RossoRacer · Dec 15, 2017

This may help some... The Hot Sheet: 33 Off-Road Tires Tested - Jp Magazine

RossoRacer · Dec 15, 2017

And here are reviews on the KO2's I mentioned before, looks like they aren't included in that article https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/bfgoodrich-all-terrain-t-a-ko2/p/32070

Ignatz · Dec 15, 2017

Off road tires will have aggressive tread that will be helpful in snow, but a bona fide snow tire has rubber that is formulated for snow and low-temperatures.

We had the General Grabber AT2s on our old Jeep Wrangler. Their website says they are not rated for severe snow, but we were quite happy with them year round.

Sandstone · Dec 15, 2017

I run Goodyear Duratracs in 235-75-15 year round. It's a commercial traction tire with the severe weather rating.

Pretty good on the highway, very good in snow and mud. Some have had problems with sidewall cuts from rocks, but I haven't.

BLKJ33P · Dec 15, 2017

Not that I have driven in snow or is it anywhere remotely cold here in Queensland, but I would have thought that whilst snow tires are obviously for snow, if you’re getting snow one every 7 years then why would you bother with snow tires, wouldn’t it be more economical to get a set of all terrains.

I have a set of General Grabbers on mine and they’re great. Starting to get a little bit noisier the older they’re getting, have done over 30,000kms on them now, but they’re great bang for your buck tyres.

PatriotUK · Dec 16, 2017

RossoRacer said:
This may help some... The Hot Sheet: 33 Off-Road Tires Tested - Jp Magazine

RossoRacer said:
And here are reviews on the KO2's I mentioned before, looks like they aren't included in that article https://www.discounttiredirect.com/buy-tires/bfgoodrich-all-terrain-t-a-ko2/p/32070

Cheers for this Rosso, I like what I've read about the Goodyear Duratracs but they seem to be harder to buy here in the UK. A few places seem to stock them but at size 235 or above....I know for one that the tyres on my Patriot are all currently 215-60-R17. I'm sure I could put 225's on there but is 235 getting a little big?

I could only find these two links so far:

https://www.tyresdirectuk.co.uk/pro...oduct/goodyear-wrangler-duratrac-235-75r15-104-101q-235-75-r15-104-101q-f-c-73/

https://www.atseuromaster.co.uk/consumer/lt235-75qr15-gyr-duratrac-owl-uk-5452001087569

PatriotUK · Dec 16, 2017

Sandstone said:
I run Goodyear Duratracs in 235-75-15 year round. It's a commercial traction tire with the severe weather rating.

Pretty good on the highway, very good in snow and mud. Some have had problems with sidewall cuts from rocks, but I haven't.

Ha, I thanked Rosso RE the Duratracs but it was you that mentioned them lol! Cheers man.

They were featured in his link about 33 tested off-road tyres though, and they have a good write-up there and look solid in snow and ice, on the road and good enough off it. Def considering them along with the Cooper STT's and the TA KM2's as well.

RossoRacer · Dec 16, 2017

Keep in mind though, most all-terrain(AT) tires are going to have alot of road noise, especially mud tires with bigger lugs. I had even been considering General Grabbers, but apparently they're not as good as they could be in winter and alot of General Tire designs are BFGoodrich ripoffs. KO2's are an original design and good for pretty much everything with not alot of noise, and are available in smaller sizes. Makes them well worth the price to alot of Patriot owners including myself.

That said, I've heard some good things about Duratracs and KM2's as well. It's just a matter of what you need them for, and if you end up with a tire that isn't good in some situations you need it to be, or is louder than you're content with on the road, then you might not want to drive your own Jeep, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody....unless they think Fiats count as Jeeps maybe, but that's another story.

Also, 225-65-17 will fit with no modifications whatsoever, and 235-65-17 with spacers and maybe a pinch weld mod. Some particular tire models will fit 235 size under a Patriot without any modification, but to my knowledge there aren't that many. However, if you buy a different size tire, you'll probably want to have your onboard computers recalibrated so the speedometer and mileage still read properly. In the United States, it's not a big deal(at least in most places, to my knowledge) as long as you know how far off the speed is so as to still be within the legal speed limit, and a vehicle's mileage is the owner's business but I would imagine a prospective buyer of a used Jeep(and there's alot here) would want to know if the odometer reads wrong by more than a hundred miles because of a different tire size. I don't know what England's laws are on this, but I can imagine it being more important there.

Ignatz · Dec 16, 2017

RossoRacer said:
Keep in mind though, most all-terrain(AT) tires are going to have alot of road noise, especially mud tires with bigger lugs. I had even been considering General Grabbers, but apparently they're not as good as they could be in winter and alot of General Tire designs are BFGoodrich ripoffs. KO2's are an original design and good for pretty much everything with not alot of noise, and are available in smaller sizes. Makes them well worth the price to alot of Patriot owners including myself.

IMHO, the AT2s were fairly quiet and they were certainly acceptable in the snow.

RossoRacer said:
. . . However, if you buy a different size tire, you'll probably want to have your onboard computers recalibrated so the speedometer and mileage still read properly. In the United States, it's not a big deal(at least in most places, to my knowledge) as long as you know how far off the speed is so as to still be within the legal speed limit, and a vehicle's mileage is the owner's business but I would imagine a prospective buyer of a used Jeep(and there's alot here) would want to know if the odometer reads wrong by more than a hundred miles because of a different tire size. I don't know what England's laws are on this, but I can imagine it being more important there.

I ran oversized (225/75-16s all summer with about a 7-8% speedometer/odometer error. Then again, my snow tires are a tad undersized (215/65-16s) and I've run them every winter, so they've probably compensated for the odometer error of one summer.

PatriotUK · Dec 16, 2017

RossoRacer said:
Keep in mind though, most all-terrain(AT) tires are going to have alot of road noise, especially mud tires with bigger lugs. I had even been considering General Grabbers, but apparently they're not as good as they could be in winter and alot of General Tire designs are BFGoodrich ripoffs. KO2's are an original design and good for pretty much everything with not alot of noise, and are available in smaller sizes. Makes them well worth the price to alot of Patriot owners including myself.

That said, I've heard some good things about Duratracs and KM2's as well. It's just a matter of what you need them for, and if you end up with a tire that isn't good in some situations you need it to be, or is louder than you're content with on the road, then you might not want to drive your own Jeep, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody....unless they think Fiats count as Jeeps maybe, but that's another story.

Also, 225-65-17 will fit with no modifications whatsoever, and 235-65-17 with spacers and maybe a pinch weld mod. Some particular tire models will fit 235 size under a Patriot without any modification, but to my knowledge there aren't that many. However, if you buy a different size tire, you'll probably want to have your onboard computers recalibrated so the speedometer and mileage still read properly. In the United States, it's not a big deal(at least in most places, to my knowledge) as long as you know how far off the speed is so as to still be within the legal speed limit, and a vehicle's mileage is the owner's business but I would imagine a prospective buyer of a used Jeep(and there's alot here) would want to know if the odometer reads wrong by more than a hundred miles because of a different tire size. I don't know what England's laws are on this, but I can imagine it being more important there.

Oh yeah, I will bear this in mind. I know road noise can be an issue, but I don't think it should be that bad. I also commute 45 miles to work and back each day atm (so 90 miles per day) which is on highways, though I will hopefully be moving much closer to my place of work from early next year.

The goodyears seem to be my best bet, either the KO2s, KM2s or Duratracs, albeit the latter being harder to get hold of in a smaller size it seems. Otherwise, the Cooper STT Discoverer Pro seem to be popular. Really, I want something which can handle snow and ice well, along with mud, and doesn't wear too fast when highway-driving, that's what I'm looking for. I suppose my MPG is def going to suffer with these tyres on though.

As for laws and odometer readings etc, I'll clarify what you've mentioned with the tyre guys who fit whichever tyres I decide to get, when it comes round to it. Cheers man

RossoRacer · Dec 16, 2017

KO2's are I think the design that the Grabber AT2's are based off. Expensive, but yeah, can understand that being a turnoff. Discover AT3 would be my next recommendation, as mentioned.

PatriotUK · Dec 20, 2017

RossoRacer said:
KO2's are I think the design that the Grabber AT2's are based off. Expensive, but yeah, can understand that being a turnoff. Discover AT3 would be my next recommendation, as mentioned.

Ok so I have an update: A guy at a local tyre place has been helping me out sourcing some potential off-road tyres for my Patriot. He said that with my current tyres being 215/60/r17, limiting to that size will be a problem as there aren't many off-road tyres that size, but that's what he'd try and do as moving up sizes would potentially do something to the odometer (what you mentioned above Rosso.)

Anyway, turns out, got an email today from him mentioning Michelin Latitude Cross tyres they could get in for me (but in 235/55/r17) and fit them for what appears to be a good price. I've seen Michelin Latitude Cross on a Ford Ranger pickup before, and have googled again to check them out. While they don't look as off-road as say many BF goodrich, Goodyear or General Grabber Tyres, they do have excellent reviews (for off-road driving) on the internet, also appear good in snow, and have great fuel economy, wear and noise level ratings. Plus, Michelin as I'm sure most people know are a premium, top class tyre brand.

Unless any of you think they won't be any good in thick mud, or have any advice about them to share, I think I'll go with them tbh. The price they would fit them for is good, and these are expensive tyres with great reviews.

PatriotUK · Dec 20, 2017

https://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-latitude-cross

Ignatz · Dec 20, 2017

Agreed, Michelin makes excellent tires. They're pricey, however, which is why I've been running Generals for the most part. The old addage is true: you get what you pay for. IMHO, the Generals are almost as good for a lot less. That may be different in the UK.

RossoRacer · Dec 21, 2017

Michelin and BFGoodrich are actually owned by the same people, and therefore share the same good reputation. One is some kind of offshoot from the other, as I recall. The tire design, while somewhat unconventional, appears it would do alright for pretty much anything but some pretty thick mud, assuming 5-25 degrees Celsius(I'm a little rusty on that scale, but I think that's approximately 40-80 degrees Farenheit). Should be the optimum balance for British on-road life with the occasional weekend off-road trip.

Couple things though: First, a 235 width tire could possibly rub at full steering lock on a Patriot. Some don't want this at all, some don't mind as long as they're not having to turn the wheel all the way over alot. Second, learn the approach/breakover/departure angles of a Euro-spec Patriot, and be cautious when taking those trails. Don't wanna break anything off. Maybe even order the steel skid plates for the engine/transmission and fuel tank. That could end up saving some pretty expensive repairs from having to happen.

PatriotUK · Dec 22, 2017

RossoRacer said:
Michelin and BFGoodrich are actually owned by the same people, and therefore share the same good reputation. One is some kind of offshoot from the other, as I recall. The tire design, while somewhat unconventional, appears it would do alright for pretty much anything but some pretty thick mud, assuming 5-25 degrees Celsius(I'm a little rusty on that scale, but I think that's approximately 40-80 degrees Farenheit). Should be the optimum balance for British on-road life with the occasional weekend off-road trip.

Couple things though: First, a 235 width tire could possibly rub at full steering lock on a Patriot. Some don't want this at all, some don't mind as long as they're not having to turn the wheel all the way over alot. Second, learn the approach/breakover/departure angles of a Euro-spec Patriot, and be cautious when taking those trails. Don't wanna break anything off. Maybe even order the steel skid plates for the engine/transmission and fuel tank. That could end up saving some pretty expensive repairs from having to happen.

Cheers for letting me know all this bro, I will tell the tyre place what you've said. I was supposed to be getting them put on today but couldn't do it due to work, but I've now broken up for Christmas break so have a week and half off work, so I'm hoping to get these fitted tomorrow potentially.

I was reading more reviews and while a lot of people said they're great on road, and great in rain, snow, and some mud, a couple of people said ultimately they aren't amazing in thick mud, which may well be true, but I think considering the driving I do, these probably are quite a good choice, esp as if I was going with BF goodrich tyres I'd have to get new wheels and all of this would cost over £1,000 whereas Michelin Lat Cross I don't have to change wheels apparently so be half the price.

RossoRacer · Dec 22, 2017

BFGoodrich, at least the KO2's, you should be able to get in 225-65-17, which fits any NA Patriot for sure, and should also fit a Euro model with no rub(just some required recalibration). No need for new wheels. Though in all fairness the KO2 is a bit heavy and rugged for something you'd use on your daily commute. That would make the Latitude Cross you mentioned a much more viable alternative. While they won't be as good in thick mud, you should still be fine on pavement, loose dirt, some rocks, that sort of thing.

PatriotUK · Dec 23, 2017

RossoRacer said:
BFGoodrich, at least the KO2's, you should be able to get in 225-65-17, which fits any NA Patriot for sure, and should also fit a Euro model with no rub(just some required recalibration). No need for new wheels. Though in all fairness the KO2 is a bit heavy and rugged for something you'd use on your daily commute. That would make the Latitude Cross you mentioned a much more viable alternative. While they won't be as good in thick mud, you should still be fine on pavement, loose dirt, some rocks, that sort of thing.

Sounds good man. I'll see how they are now anyway, as I got all four fitted today! Gone from 215-60-r17 to 235-55-r16. I did ask one of the mechanics about rubbing, and he said it will be no issue because the clearance of the car and space by the wheel/tyres is ample. He demonstrated by pointing to things and putting his hand there and said it's unlikely they'll be any rubbing. He also said the car will do much better in snow and mud than my summer tyres that were put on there, and said it should last a fairly long time being Michelin. The mechanics there also said see how it drives (in terms of my tracking) and that it may well be better, but unfortunately, after driving home and taking it for a spin on the motorway, I think if anything it's pulling a bit more. Could be as these are semi off-road tyres, it's exaggerated? I've just now reached the conclusion that my Patriot is highly sensitive to road camber and potholes/bumps/any other road disturbance and there's nothing anyone seems to be able to do. Of course there is the camber bolts I could install, which were delivered a few days ago. I don't know if that'll solve the problem but it's worth a try. In terms of handling though, the drive tonight was fine, and as per usual, the Patriot corners very well, and while these tyres may be ever so slightly louder than the previous summers on there, it's barely noticeable.

In regards to tracking though, I'm sure it's something on the frame of the car though that is off somewhere, which is why it pulls so much. Thing is, for ages I was saying it was "pulling left," but on roads that camber rightwards, it pulls right, so it's just sensitive to road camber. Reassuringly, the mechanics told me that the two cooper summer tyres I got put on last month, were *not* wearing unevenly, and were in reasonable condition, which is different to what another tyre place said, but the same as what my local garage said, so who knows.

All I know is that I love driving this car and I can't be assed with selling it, or getting into a big argument with the dealer. It isn't worth it. I just won't get my car serviced with them. But anyway, I'm gonna give these Michelin Lat Cross's a try next month at some off-road trials.

Ignatz · Dec 23, 2017

PatriotUK said:
All I know is that I love driving this car and I can't be assed with selling it, or getting into a big argument with the dealer. It isn't worth it. I just won't get my car serviced with them. But anyway, I'm gonna give these Michelin Lat Cross's a try next month at some off-road trials.

I appreciate your attitude. Seems some folks will treat a car with a problem like a horse with a broken leg and shoot it.

Nor is it worth a brouhaha with a dealer -- why add to their stress? Hey, its Christmastime! There's something about "good will toward men" that too few people understand: it starts with me!

Meanwhile they're running their business and you're choosing not to be a part of it. Better to agree to disagree than get into a scrap.

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