Jeep Patriot Forums banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

Cvt Whine FIXED

1 reading
Jump to Latest
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
#21 ·
Pasierbek said:
Hey RossoRacer, thanks for the tip on where to go. Found the installation walkthrough on their page and it doesn't look too bad. I'll be attempting it at some point next week.

I've got another question now for whoever can answer it. Before installing the aux transmission cooler, I want to replace the transmission cooler oil filter (the one in that metal pot thing) as it was previously mentioned in the first page. When I unscrew that metal pot housing apart, am I going to lose all my CVT fluid or is it just a bit that I can top off later with like a quart of the CVT fluid?
Click to expand...
If you're talking about the small paper filter that sits in the transmission behind the aux cooler/ ex-changer (looks like a metal can with 4 tubes coming out the top), then no, you won't lose all the fluid.
 
#23 ·
CVT whine / fluid temp issue

Hi all... long-time reader/first-time poster. Very grateful for all the info shared here by Travis304 and others, and want to ask for your expert advice about the dreaded Patriot / JATCO CVT "death whine." Here's my vehicle background, planned remedy, and a CRITICAL QUESTION...

VEHICLE BACKGROUND/ISSUE:
*2010 Patty Sport base model
*Whine started developing between 50000 and 60000 miles; gets whinier at higher air temps and higher engine loads. Basically, I hear it every day (now at 95K miles).
*Have experienced "limp mode" at least once.
*Took to closest trans shop on day of limp mode; mechanic said the CVT fluid level was fine and the fluid color was fine but was unable to reproduce limp mode.

PLANNED REMEDY: Per the threads posted here by Travis304 and others, I am planning to do the following:
1) FLUSH existing CVT fluid to ensure removal of any loose CVT bearing "shavings"; flush and refill with Valvoline synthetic CVTF+4 compliant fluid (guessing at least two full fills worth - 15 quarts?)
2) install an auxiliary transmission cooler in-line with my factory cooler (Hayden Rapid Cool 678?)
3) replace the transmission cooler oil filter (ATP B-429 filter?)
4) replace the transmission pan strainer / oil strainer and its o-ring (not sure of part codes)
5) replace the transmission pan with a pan that has a drainplug (not sure of part codes)

Anticipating a total bill between $800-1000. Maybe towards the lower end if I can find snag a holiday deal on the fluid or parts. But I'm still bracing for a 6-hour / $500 labor charge, *IF* I can find an independent mechanic willing to do this work and who has the equipment to do a proper flush with a pressurized fluid exchanger and not just a casual top off.

CRITICAL QUESTION:

If the origin of the CVT "death whine" and resulting limp mode is a CVT design flaw that prevents fluid from properly circulating/lubricating through its bearings, why not simply *overfill* the CVT fluid? I am starting to wonder if the reason that CVT fluid replacements, CVT filter changes, and installing an additional cooling unit solve the whining isn't necessarily because they are keeping the CVT fluid temp lower (which is a good thing, of course!), but because these remedies are simply addressing inadequate volume of fluid. This would seem to explain why a number of people who just get their CVT fluid topped off/refilled but not any of the other parts/steps come back to this forum later on and tell us that the whine came back (because the fluid level set by the manufacturer still isn't high enough to get it where it needs to go, thus it continues to burn off/break down and or clog the filter with burned out fluid). Also, wouldn't adding the auxilliary in-line cooler increase the amount of hosing/tubing in the system, and thus increase the actual volume of fluid needed to hit the "dipstick" fill level once the system is closed up? If that is the case, it would seem to suggest that the cooler itself isn't the main part of the solution but merely helping to 1) increase the amount of fluid regularly flowing through the system when the cooler is not engaged), and 2) keeping that fluid from overheating so that it doesn't burn off back down to the (standard/OEM) level that is inadequate to lubricate the JATCO bearings based on factory specs.

I admit to being a complete novice when it comes to vehicle maintenance, just spitballing based on commonsense logic related to fluid systems. If a lubricating fluid isn't getting where it needs to go based on standard fill levels/specs, seems logical that we would increase the level/specs. But I could be HORRIBLY WRONG :D

Thank you again for your time and input.
 
#24 ·
This is only a thought and not expert advice. On the one hand more fluid should help dissipate heat -- at least spread the burden over a greater volume of fluid. On the other hand, all the commentary I've heard on conventional transmissions is that overfilling leads to foaming, and foaming means the fluid is mixed with air and so less fluid is actually getting to where it needs to be. I had a humming tranny in my Grand Prix and that's the explanation I got. It was solved with a tranny flush and refill. But again, that was a conventional transmission and not a CVT. So IMHO, I wouldn't overfill it.
 
#25 ·
PS, I had the whine on my first CVT, but only on hot days after a long drive. Really it was more of a scream than a whine. It would go away after it cooled down. I didn't know about changing the fluid at 50,000 miles and that tranny died at 110,000. Looking back on it, the whine/scream was likely caused by foaming fluid, and it was telling me the fluid was worn out and needed to be changed. When the transmission died, it was making a humming noise, not the high-pitched whine like I got on hot days, just a humming noise in a much lower register.
 
#26 ·
mr.twofish said:
Hi all... long-time reader/first-time poster. Very grateful for all the info shared here by Travis304 and others, and want to ask for your expert advice about the dreaded Patriot / JATCO CVT "death whine." Here's my vehicle background, planned remedy, and a CRITICAL QUESTION...

VEHICLE BACKGROUND/ISSUE:
*2010 Patty Sport base model
*Whine started developing between 50000 and 60000 miles; gets whinier at higher air temps and higher engine loads. Basically, I hear it every day (now at 95K miles).
*Have experienced "limp mode" at least once.
*Took to closest trans shop on day of limp mode; mechanic said the CVT fluid level was fine and the fluid color was fine but was unable to reproduce limp mode.

PLANNED REMEDY: Per the threads posted here by Travis304 and others, I am planning to do the following:
1) FLUSH existing CVT fluid to ensure removal of any loose CVT bearing "shavings"; flush and refill with Valvoline synthetic CVTF+4 compliant fluid (guessing at least two full fills worth - 15 quarts?)
2) install an auxiliary transmission cooler in-line with my factory cooler (Hayden Rapid Cool 678?)
3) replace the transmission cooler oil filter (ATP B-429 filter?)
4) replace the transmission pan strainer / oil strainer and its o-ring (not sure of part codes)
5) replace the transmission pan with a pan that has a drainplug (not sure of part codes)

Anticipating a total bill between $800-1000. Maybe towards the lower end if I can find snag a holiday deal on the fluid or parts. But I'm still bracing for a 6-hour / $500 labor charge, *IF* I can find an independent mechanic willing to do this work and who has the equipment to do a proper flush with a pressurized fluid exchanger and not just a casual top off.

CRITICAL QUESTION:

If the origin of the CVT "death whine" and resulting limp mode is a CVT design flaw that prevents fluid from properly circulating/lubricating through its bearings, why not simply *overfill* the CVT fluid? I am starting to wonder if the reason that CVT fluid replacements, CVT filter changes, and installing an additional cooling unit solve the whining isn't necessarily because they are keeping the CVT fluid temp lower (which is a good thing, of course!), but because these remedies are simply addressing inadequate volume of fluid. This would seem to explain why a number of people who just get their CVT fluid topped off/refilled but not any of the other parts/steps come back to this forum later on and tell us that the whine came back (because the fluid level set by the manufacturer still isn't high enough to get it where it needs to go, thus it continues to burn off/break down and or clog the filter with burned out fluid). Also, wouldn't adding the auxilliary in-line cooler increase the amount of hosing/tubing in the system, and thus increase the actual volume of fluid needed to hit the "dipstick" fill level once the system is closed up? If that is the case, it would seem to suggest that the cooler itself isn't the main part of the solution but merely helping to 1) increase the amount of fluid regularly flowing through the system when the cooler is not engaged), and 2) keeping that fluid from overheating so that it doesn't burn off back down to the (standard/OEM) level that is inadequate to lubricate the JATCO bearings based on factory specs.

I admit to being a complete novice when it comes to vehicle maintenance, just spitballing based on commonsense logic related to fluid systems. If a lubricating fluid isn't getting where it needs to go based on standard fill levels/specs, seems logical that we would increase the level/specs. But I could be HORRIBLY WRONG

Thank you again for your time and input.
Click to expand...
I'll answer the critical question first. In short, no. Overfilling will almost for certain guarantee you'll get whining. Don't do it.

The fluid expands when hot, and if it rises high enough it will get into the rotating assemblies which will churn the fluid into foam and foamed fluid causes the whine. Overfilling will just make it worse.

Wore out/overheated fluid can cause whine because the anti-foaming properties are gone. IMO, the factory fill should be changed at 30k miles to clean out any bits of metal from break-in, then every 30-50k afterwards depending on how hard the vehicle is used and under what conditions.

You don't need to do a "flush", just a simple drain and fill with a filter change will do. It's not a difficult procedure; a decent shop should be able to do it for $250-$350. Call around and get some quotes.

Get the fluid changed and see if you still have overheating and limp mode. If so, have the transmission cooler bypass valve checked for proper function. If it's working, you may want to consider adding a cooler.
 
#27 ·
Oh, hey, mr.twofish, please drop over to the newbie thread and introduce yourself to the rest of the gang. We've got a friendly helpful bunch on here. Tell us more about your Patriot, post some pics.
 
#28 ·
Sandstone said:
I'll answer the critical question first. In short, no. Overfilling will almost for certain guarantee you'll get whining. Don't do it.

The fluid expands when hot, and if it rises high enough it will get into the rotating assemblies which will churn the fluid into foam and foamed fluid causes the whine. Overfilling will just make it worse.

Wore out/overheated fluid can cause whine because the anti-foaming properties are gone. IMO, the factory fill should be changed at 30k miles to clean out any bits of metal from break-in, then every 30-50k afterwards depending on how hard the vehicle is used and under what conditions.

You don't need to do a "flush", just a simple drain and fill with a filter change will do. It's not a difficult procedure; a decent shop should be able to do it for $250-$350. Call around and get some quotes.

Get the fluid changed and see if you still have overheating and limp mode. If so, have the transmission cooler bypass valve checked for proper function. If it's working, you may want to consider adding a cooler.
Click to expand...
THIS!!!! Follow this advice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mr.twofish and REDONE
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#29 ·
On my 2011 patriot after having replaced the transmission at 59K miles at the dealers expense I started having whining and overheating problems with the Replacement CVT (It was new). Ultimately I ended up installing the hayden cooler in front of the radiator and also had to replace the 2 thermostats that were in the trans fluid coolant circuit.

I have been running it since last december and through the summer in the desert and have yet to have any noise issues with the fix. I had it repaired at an independent repair shop and they were just as eager to learn why it was doing it as I was. They were the ones that discovered that it had 2 thermostats in the fluid circuit.

The dodge dealer was a complete joke and as far as I am concerned because they took the jeep on a 4 mile drive and said there was nothing wrong. I had to take in a cell phone video to show what it was doing going up a grade and the loud noise it was making. After they had my car for 45 days 14 of that was just getting around to saying they couldn't find anything wrong then I took in the video, and another 30 days to replace the trans ( they claimed it had to come from the factory since none were out here on the west coast). When I picked up the car they had left the windows open and it was filled with dust and dirt, I sent a long letter to Chrysler without any response from them.
 
#31 ·
Thanks Sandstone. Would there be any risk of a shop doing the refill with the valvoline CVTF+4 when the trans currently still has the factory fluid in it? I think I read in an earlier thread that the trans doesn't really totally drain out on its own. Seems like people are saying that it's important to remove all the old fluid (and the filter) completely to ensure that there aren't any ground up bearing bits floating around afterwards in the fresh fluid. Is that true?
 
#33 ·
Also here's a quick extra note about the CVT limp mode that I experienced, and a temporary workaround that got me home... so far, I've only experienced it once, doing about 80 mph on i70 west near Colby, Kansas (fyi - not a fantastic stretch of freeway for a vehicle breakdown!). Warning light and alarm went off, vehicle lost horsepower. Managed to limp off the freeway into the nearest oil change place. The following conversation occurred:

Me: "So I just got a warning light and loss of horsepower and my transmission sounds super whiny. Is there anything you can do?"

Mechanic #1 to Mechanic #2: "Hey, didn't we just get a Patriot in here the other day with the same problem?"

Mechanic #2 to Mechanic #1: "No, we had *two* Patriots in here with the same problem."

:(

I wound up just letting it sit and cool down for a while, but when I started it up to finish my drive, I decided to experiment and just use the manual/stick and drove it in 5th gear on the freeway. Worked fantastic - somewhat less whining, and no limp mode. Has anyone else discovered this "hack"?
 
#34 ·
mr.twofish said:
Also here's a quick extra note about the CVT limp mode that I experienced, and a temporary workaround that got me home... so far, I've only experienced it once, doing about 80 mph on i70 west near Colby, Kansas (fyi - not a fantastic stretch of freeway for a vehicle breakdown!). Warning light and alarm went off, vehicle lost horsepower. Managed to limp off the freeway into the nearest oil change place. The following conversation occurred:

Me: "So I just got a warning light and loss of horsepower and my transmission sounds super whiny. Is there anything you can do?"

Mechanic #1 to Mechanic #2: "Hey, didn't we just get a Patriot in here the other day with the same problem?"

Mechanic #2 to Mechanic #1: "No, we had *two* Patriots in here with the same problem."

:(

I wound up just letting it sit and cool down for a while, but when I started it up to finish my drive, I decided to experiment and just use the manual/stick and drove it in 5th gear on the freeway. Worked fantastic - somewhat less whining, and no limp mode. Has anyone else discovered this "hack"?
Click to expand...
No, I never discovered the hack but I never had your problem either. I frequently used autostick for downshifting or in winter climbing hills in snow (with FWD it helps me feel slippage).

I chuckled at your conversation. I overheard one some years ago. I'd walked in to a gas station and was waiting to schedule some repair with the manager when the mechanic walks into the customer area holding up a thin shaft maybe 8" long with a fitting or gear on one end of it.
"Hey, boss, what's this thing?"
"I don't know. Where'd you get it?"
"I dropped the pan on that Ford out there and this dropped out."

I pretended I'd come in to ask directions . . .
 
#35 · (Edited)
mr.twofish said:
Thanks Sandstone. Would there be any risk of a shop doing the refill with the valvoline CVTF+4 when the trans currently still has the factory fluid in it? I think I read in an earlier thread that the trans doesn't really totally drain out on its own. Seems like people are saying that it's important to remove all the old fluid (and the filter) completely to ensure that there aren't any ground up bearing bits floating around afterwards in the fresh fluid. Is that true?
Click to expand...
Ideally, yes.

But most of the metal (hopefully) has collected on the magnets and in the filter, so when the magnets are cleaned and the fluid and filters are changed that "should" be the bulk of it. What's left circulating will again begin to collect on the magnets and in the new filter.

Rather than have a shop do a flush, I changed fluid/filter/cleaned magnets, pan, etc., drove 10K miles, then changed fluid again. I found only a tiny bit of metal fuzz on the magnets, so IMO the fluid/filter change and magnet cleaning works pretty good, and the second change has gotten pretty much all the old fluid out of the system.

One thing that scares me away from having a shop do a flush (unless they're up to snuff on CVT's) is the potential for contamination from the flush machine having been used with other fluid types.

mr.twofish said:
@ Sandstone. I'm also in the Denver area. Where do you take your Patty for service? Or do you just work on it yourself?
Click to expand...
I try to do most of it myself, unless it's something major, don't have the time, or flat out just don't want to.

What side of town are you on?
 
#36 ·
I'm out near Golden, and I've had hit or miss experiences with the mechanics on the west side of town. There are one or two that I really like, but they are really picky about what kinds of work they'll do and on what vehicles and the wait time isn't just days or weeks but *months* for some kinds of jobs.

And after reading your explanation, I suppose I should also be slightly suspicious of flush machines. Especially since these transmissions seem to be really sensitive to fluid types and levels. It's a shame that you can't just trust people who get paid and certified to do this work to do it thoroughly.

Also didn't quite put together earlier what the magnets were all about. So I guess I should request the dirty filter and a chance to see the magnets when they remove the pan to get a sense of how much has already been ground down from the bearings? It doesn't seem like there is an easy way to judge what is a normal vs. dangerous amount of "shedding," but it would be great to have some kind of baseline to judge system wear between this fluid/filter change and the next one after that.
 
#38 ·
Fantastic photos, thanks Sandstone! This is a great resource for visual users. Did you also replace your pan with one that has a drainplug? I see something that kind of looks like a plug next to the magnet, but hard to tell if that is a drainplug screw or something else.
 
#39 ·
mr.twofish said:
Fantastic photos, thanks Sandstone!
Click to expand...
You're welcome

mr.twofish said:
Did you also replace your pan with one that has a drainplug? I see something that kind of looks like a plug next to the magnet, but hard to tell if that is a drainplug screw or something else.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's a Dorman pan with a drain plug
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
About this Discussion
41 Replies
18 Participants
Last post:
Guitarjeff50
Jeep Patriot Forums
posts
678K
members
55K
Since
2006
Join our community to discuss the Jeep Patriot & Jeep Compass. Find answers to all your Jeep Patriot technical questions.
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Jeep Patriot General Discussion Engine and Drivetrain Newbie Check-In Suspension and Tires Electrical and Audio