Hello all, I have had two alignments but still get that floating feeling when I run accross ice on the highway. It is a very disconcerting feeling of no controle though the AWD system seems to compensate, it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. Anyone else experiencing this? Any ideas? Perhaps the folks aligning the pat didn't know what they were doing?
NoSunshinePatriot
Back end floating on ice
What speed are you going on this ice, as I've said before I've never noticed this but I haven't ripped down a road at 65mph on pure ice either.
We need a little more info, i think. How fast are you going when you notice it? Is it a violent reaction? See any warning lights on the dash?
At first blush, with no personal experience on this, I think what you're experiencing is the traction control system trying to balance the left/right loads by activating the BLDs.
At first blush, with no personal experience on this, I think what you're experiencing is the traction control system trying to balance the left/right loads by activating the BLDs.
The only time the BLD is going to activate is when there is a big wheel speed difference across the axles, indicating you are spinning the tires on ice, at which point its no wonder why you'd have issues as you are spinning your tires on ice.
I've not felt this in my Patriot, but in Wifey's Wrangler, when pulling an unstable trailer the ESP kicked in at about 50MPH on a dry road. The trailer was making the vehicle sway, and that was enough to do it. Frankly, the Wrangler isn't a great highway vehicle, but its the vehicle that has the hitch.
My Patriot is FWD and other than the typical instability you're always going to get on ice, I've never had anything that made me feel the vehicle was unsafe or unstable, so I'd guess your problem in unique to your vehicle and not all Patriots across the board.
My Patriot is FWD and other than the typical instability you're always going to get on ice, I've never had anything that made me feel the vehicle was unsafe or unstable, so I'd guess your problem in unique to your vehicle and not all Patriots across the board.
BLD = Brake Lock Differential
Short Story = tries to mimic a limited slip differential by using the brakes.
Long Story
BLD is part of the TCS/ESP system, and is still active when the system s fully disabled.
It's function is to make sure the wheels on a give axle spin at the same time.
Example, Driver front wheel is spinning a lot, passenger front isn't.
Drivers front wheel ONLY will have brakes applied to it, causing the power to shift over to the passenger front wheel.
BLD is more aggressive on FDII MK's when in the FDII offroad mode, otherwise all MK's have the BLD function.
Video showing it.
Short Story = tries to mimic a limited slip differential by using the brakes.
Long Story
BLD is part of the TCS/ESP system, and is still active when the system s fully disabled.
It's function is to make sure the wheels on a give axle spin at the same time.
Example, Driver front wheel is spinning a lot, passenger front isn't.
Drivers front wheel ONLY will have brakes applied to it, causing the power to shift over to the passenger front wheel.
BLD is more aggressive on FDII MK's when in the FDII offroad mode, otherwise all MK's have the BLD function.
Video showing it.
I just took a 10hr drive downstate during a blizzard passing slow pokes using the unplowed passing lane. No stability issues here and I'm on 15's and mud tires. It kind of sounds like the problem my wife's Saturn had. Her tie rod needed replacement as here car just wandered all over the road.
I'll toss my 2 cents in...
We get a lot of what we call "slain"...because of being right on the ocean we don't get much snow down low but we do get a mix of sleet/ice/rain or slain often enough.
this stuff falls in micro-climates all up and down the roads I use daily and its sometimes difficult to discern when it is going to happen.
You can be running along on a normal wet highway at 80 k (50 mph), round a corner and you are on sheet ice with an inch or more of this wintery mix on top.
My Patriot has never failed to provide a stable, positive feeling ride.
The only folks who mess up always have one or more of the following going on:
-too fast for conditions
-poor tires
-abrupt steering inputs
-inattention to what is going on, little to no situational awareness.
-obvious lack of understanding of basic physics.
We get a lot of what we call "slain"...because of being right on the ocean we don't get much snow down low but we do get a mix of sleet/ice/rain or slain often enough.
this stuff falls in micro-climates all up and down the roads I use daily and its sometimes difficult to discern when it is going to happen.
You can be running along on a normal wet highway at 80 k (50 mph), round a corner and you are on sheet ice with an inch or more of this wintery mix on top.
My Patriot has never failed to provide a stable, positive feeling ride.
The only folks who mess up always have one or more of the following going on:
-too fast for conditions
-poor tires
-abrupt steering inputs
-inattention to what is going on, little to no situational awareness.
-obvious lack of understanding of basic physics.
if the rear end is kind of floating around, try engaging 4x4, so it's a 50/50 split. Since I've taken out the fuse for my 4x4 computer (due to rear diff issues) I noticed on the highway last night that my rear end was much less "Solid" feeling than it was before. on the plus side, the Jeep is much peppier in true 2wd lol.
4x4 lock may help, but the thing is at highway speeds (or anything above 15 or something mph) the amount of torque going to the rear wheels is going to be quite minimal.
Now being only in 2wd, and trying to maintain speed on very slick surfaces or a slight incline I could absolutely see where letting the computer transfer torque needed to the rear end may help stability.
At highway speeds the MK awd system is far better and more stable than having a part time 4x4 system in 4-high.
I've watched vehicles on the highway go into a 4 wheel drift and lose control while driving in 4 high.
Now being only in 2wd, and trying to maintain speed on very slick surfaces or a slight incline I could absolutely see where letting the computer transfer torque needed to the rear end may help stability.
At highway speeds the MK awd system is far better and more stable than having a part time 4x4 system in 4-high.
I've watched vehicles on the highway go into a 4 wheel drift and lose control while driving in 4 high.
A few weeks ago I was on my way to Montana to get the Blizzaks that I ordered online. I had to drive over a 30 mile stretch of glare ice about 1/4" thick because of freezing rain the day before. I could keep the Patriot going down the road pretty much in a straight line but almost crashed when I tried to stop with those worn out Michelin X-Ice tires. I found out that the Patriot handled worse with 4X4 Lock than without. The side to side sway is especially noticeable when the tires slip sideways even though forward momentum is still possible. The return trip home was without drama on the new studded winter tires and the (in stock) Blizzaks showed up a week later so someone else could buy them.
Floating Down The Road
Well, sounds like it is time to go looking for a new vehicle. If you've done 90% of your suspension, I don't see what the sense of dumping more money into this thing is going to get me. And I wanted to hang onto it for a long time since I've got the lifetime warranty.
Lately, I've noticed that when not driving on snow/ice covered roads it will wander from side to side anymore. I know my new tires will follow the grooves on the highways and that will end with time, but it feels like I'm fighting 50 mph winds from each side. My speeds on snow/ice covered roads is minimal due to the vehicle swaying from side to side. I notice it from 20 mph to 45 mph but don't drive this vehicle any faster when anything warrants slippery roads.
I've tried the 4X4 lock, ESP off and the function when you hold the ESP down for 5 seconds that disengages the entire system. I don't ever feel TC engaging and never get the readout on the dash that says I have slipping or sliding tires. I wrote Jeep and asked them. I provided the threads on this topic and told them they need to figure things out since no other mechanic is able to.
If someone out there with tie rod knowledge thinks a lose, but not very lose tie rod would cause my Jeep to do this, let me know and I'll gladly look into fixing it, but if not.... time to move on. I loved this Jeep up until this point in its life.
Well, sounds like it is time to go looking for a new vehicle. If you've done 90% of your suspension, I don't see what the sense of dumping more money into this thing is going to get me. And I wanted to hang onto it for a long time since I've got the lifetime warranty.
Lately, I've noticed that when not driving on snow/ice covered roads it will wander from side to side anymore. I know my new tires will follow the grooves on the highways and that will end with time, but it feels like I'm fighting 50 mph winds from each side. My speeds on snow/ice covered roads is minimal due to the vehicle swaying from side to side. I notice it from 20 mph to 45 mph but don't drive this vehicle any faster when anything warrants slippery roads.
I've tried the 4X4 lock, ESP off and the function when you hold the ESP down for 5 seconds that disengages the entire system. I don't ever feel TC engaging and never get the readout on the dash that says I have slipping or sliding tires. I wrote Jeep and asked them. I provided the threads on this topic and told them they need to figure things out since no other mechanic is able to.
If someone out there with tie rod knowledge thinks a lose, but not very lose tie rod would cause my Jeep to do this, let me know and I'll gladly look into fixing it, but if not.... time to move on. I loved this Jeep up until this point in its life.
My patriot has all the symptoms you describe. Wandering around, back end slides around on slippery roads and there just isnt a fix for it that i can find. Both my inner and outer tierods have been replaced. Still doesnt fix it.
I wouldn't think struts would be the issue that they told me to replace either. I would guess tie rod before struts. What is comforting is that there is more than just me that have experienced this problem. I always feel half crazy going to places and telling them this story.
Shouldn't Jeep do a recall, or what is the process of getting problems addressed? Obviously the whole front end of the Patriot is lousy. I've seen more ball joint repair videos and complaints than I've ever seen, but when it comes to a safety issue and this many people have concerns about it and nothing seems to help, something needs to get done.
Shouldn't Jeep do a recall, or what is the process of getting problems addressed? Obviously the whole front end of the Patriot is lousy. I've seen more ball joint repair videos and complaints than I've ever seen, but when it comes to a safety issue and this many people have concerns about it and nothing seems to help, something needs to get done.
Rakapaul- I did an experiment last night with my patriot. I picked up 3 (70lb) tubular sand bags from lowes and put them in the rear cargo area of my patriot. The handling seemed to improve quite a bit. The vehicle really felt like it was hugging the road very well. I havent tried it in snow yet, but we should be getting snow soon. For just a few bucks, get some type of weight to throw in the cargo area and try it out. Get at least 200lbs. I may just leave the weight in all year round since it rides and handles quite well. The only downside is, that youll feel the brakes working harder a tiny bit and some weight has been lifted from the front end but its no big deal. MPG loss is negligible and not noticeable. Its worth a try IMO.
I guess I've got 62 lb spare and the rest of the area crammed with recovery gear. So I've probably got 150 extra pounds in the rear.
My buddy is gonna let me borrow 2 100lb tractor weights. They are flat and may fit in a floorboard nicely. One in the front pass side and one in the rear pass side. That should even out my fat 300lb body mass in the drivers side
Bcom, I didn't notice in earlier posts on this thread, but have you had the rear toe links checked. I put new Dunlops on my '08 last December, having to have several road trips to Erie Pa on rt 86 thru the mountains. I can't tell you how stabil it felt, passing most everybody on roads that were hard packed snow at 60mph or so, felt like I could just point my Pat and it would go where I wanted, no problem. This fall, I put on Stu's coils, having carried way too much weight (200-500lbs) for the past 5 yrs due to work, and I couldn't keep it on the road 1st slushy road was on. If I wasn't headed for the ditch, I was headed for the other side of the road. Turns out I should have replaced all my wearable suspension parts that I have never replaced when I put on the new springs. My rear toe links are so bad on the drivers side, that you can actually see the toe out, looking at it from behind. Never knew they were bad before, always figuered odd tire wear due to heavy loads carried. Always drove a solid rear axle vehicle, until the Pat. (Sorry for the never ending post)
You can disable the traction control system entirely below 56kms/h its ESP full off, the only thing active in that case is the Brake Lock differential, which on FDI's isn't going to activate unless there is a large difference in wheel speed across each axle.
2 iron weights wont take up much room they are flat and can lay in the floorpan. Also will give extra weight for the winter. Come spring i may remove them or keep them
I never had the feeling of this "floating" but I do know the Patriot is light, and you can feel the wind push you. On ice, I've felt that.
I carry sand bags in the back of the pick-up all winter, for weight and if needed, traction. Kitty litter is good to have too, but sand adds more weight.
I carry sand bags in the back of the pick-up all winter, for weight and if needed, traction. Kitty litter is good to have too, but sand adds more weight.
bcom - I think I'm going to give the inner tie rods a whirl. My floating seems to be coming from the front vs. the rear. I appreciate everyone commenting on what possible solutions may be and when I get the tie rod replaced, I'll comment back if it was a solution or not.
I will have to say that sandbags and weights aren't going to satisfy me as a solution since they weren't need to begin with.
I find it mind blowing that the Patriot started out as such a good vehicle for many people and then goes to hell for quite a few, whether it is the suspension, drain tubes for sun roof or transmission, those three seem to be the biggest issues. I can't believe Jeep hasn't done anything to take care of their customers based on all of the comments on this site, Edmonds, KBB, etc.
Thanks all!
I will have to say that sandbags and weights aren't going to satisfy me as a solution since they weren't need to begin with.
I find it mind blowing that the Patriot started out as such a good vehicle for many people and then goes to hell for quite a few, whether it is the suspension, drain tubes for sun roof or transmission, those three seem to be the biggest issues. I can't believe Jeep hasn't done anything to take care of their customers based on all of the comments on this site, Edmonds, KBB, etc.
Thanks all!
I will state that bcom's choice of replacement struts aren't going to be his issue, you. Know why because I have ordered the same ones. I also have zero problems on ice. Those struts could fit a 2007-2010 fdii without issues and they are supposedly the same as the 2011+ springs.
My struts were replaced a few months ago. This wandering around on my vehcile has been going on for over 2 years so no aftermarket part can be to blame. The patriot just has poor quality suspension imo. To many parts have been replaced over the years to remedy this "floating around" but yet nothing has fixed it. This doesnt seem to be a widespread problembt i didnt start this thread and many others have added to it. Some that even have the same problem too so i know im not the only one with the problem.
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