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#41 ·
APT said:
Our Jeeps have 2 open differentials. If we did not have ESP/TCS, we would have at best, 1 front and 1 rear wheel drive with the tire with the least amount of friction spinning forever. The only way it can grind away spinning all 4 wheels is by the brake applied electronic LSD "feature" of the TCS system. For deep sand and snow, the manual clearly says partial off should be used.
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You are right, 'Partial ESP Off' should be used in deep sand and snow if that is all you have. Take a look at the headings in the manual, both the 2WD and 4WD have the 'Partial ESP Off' mode. Only the 4WD(4x4) can fully disable ESP which further enhances the ability to navigate offroad situations, including deep snow and sand. There are several offroad websites that cover this so do not take my word for it.

Keep in mind ESP by design is meant to control oversteer and understeer.


APT said:
I know you copy and pasted from the manual, but did you read what you copied?
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Was this necessary? Irregardless of the comment we are all sharing views and providing info right?


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#42 ·
Incorrect.

Are you saying this would occur if you fully disabled ESP??

Just because ESP is fully disabled you would not be left with 1 wheel violently spinning robbing power from the other. I know this first hand.

Read the Service Manual as to how the system works. Fully disabling ESP defanately further enhances navigation of offroad conditions. "Partial ESP Off" is highlighted as you can do that across all Jeep Patriot models even the 2WD.


APT said:
Our Jeeps have 2 open differentials. If we did not have ESP/TCS, we would have at best, 1 front and 1 rear wheel drive with the tire with the least amount of friction spinning forever. The only way it can grind away spinning all 4 wheels is by the brake applied electronic LSD "feature" of the TCS system. For deep sand and snow, the manual clearly says partial off should be used. I know you copy and pasted from the manual, but did you read what you copied?
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#43 ·
Maybe it is because I work for an automotive supplier on ESP systems that I am so picky about the terminology used and how it actually works. I really dislike some of Chrysler's design requreiments and terminology used.

You cannot fully disable ESP according to the owner's manual. Brake applied TCS is always availible for all three modes. Over 35mph, ESP is always enabled. ESP Off is usefull for 10-35mph speeds on sand and snow where you want to oversteer/4-wheel drift. If ESP were enabled, it would determine that the steering angle relative to how much lateral acceleration and yaw rate (how much the car is spinning) the vehicle has is not safe and apply brakes to "help" the driver along the intended (biased by steering angle) path. This has more to do with lateral grip than wheel spin. For low speed rock climing or 2/3-wheels teetering where you need help because of our open differentials, Partial ESP is probably enough. It seems Chrysler thinks no one should drift over 35mph. Probably a good speed to limit for most drivers, but I wish off were off!

Just because ESP is fully disabled you would not be left with 1 wheel violently spinning robbing power from the other. I know this first hand.
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Which just proves ESP is not truely disabled, ever. The owners manual implies that all three ESP modes would apply brakes to try to get all 4 wheels spinning, not just ESP Off mode. In ESP normal mode, it may also cut engine torque (by retading spark and limiting the electronic throttle plate).

My own experiementing has questioned the accuracy of the owner's manual descriptions to implementation. I need more experience, though.

Homac, I don't mean to offend you. Just wanted to make sure we are reading and interpreting the same thing. It seemed quite clear how it is written that brake applie TCS is never disabled for any of the 3 ESP modes and that's how we get anything more than 1 wheel driven per axle.
 
#44 ·
maybe some useful info for those with problems..... went to the dealer today, printed this whole thread, the service manager read every post..... was amazed it was such an issue. talked with chrysler and worked on the pat all day, may have determined the ABS module is malfunctioning..... the module controls the ABS and ESP. the esp portion of it is messed up..... or so they say. they ordered a new modlue and should have it installed next week. i'll popst results then.
 
#45 ·
I hate to add my questions to the already somewhat confusing thread but here is my question.

I've messed around in deep snow and mud since getting my pat, now the esp modes all work as stated in the manual BUT:

Leaving the gear shift it D with 4x4 locked on with the esp full off allows the wheels to spin freely.

Putting it into L with 4x4 locked with esp full off seems to still spin all the wheels but I get that grinding sound like the esp system is working, so what is the deal with that???

I"m totally happy with my pat i just can't seem to figure out why I here the esp system when its in low mode 4x4 vs just being 4x4 in the drive position.
 
#46 ·
Tyler-98-W68 said:
I"m totally happy with my pat i just can't seem to figure out why I here the esp system when its in low mode 4x4 vs just being 4x4 in the drive position.
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Possible in low mode, it's much easier to spin the tires up to 35mph where ESP re-engages?
 
#47 ·
What i mean is that the wheels still spin freely, as in lose traction on the muddy surface but it sounds like the esp is doing something, even though it is in full off.....i'll try to grab a friend and go out to this one spot I always go and do some tests.
 
#48 ·
APT said:
Which just proves ESP is not truely disabled, ever. The owners manual implies that all three ESP modes would apply brakes to try to get all 4 wheels spinning, not just ESP Off mode. In ESP normal mode, it may also cut engine torque (by retading spark and limiting the electronic throttle plate).
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You're confusing TCS with ESP. Brake traction control system is another layered module. ESP can be fully disabled, TCS cannot.
 
#49 ·
I work for a supplier on ABS/TCS/ESP systems. It's all the same module. Same inputs used, different algorithms for each system, and the same outputs are controlled, brake (apply and isolate) and engine torque reduction. The only difference is the ECC for 4wd MK's can also be used to assist in traction by another module instead of just engine torque reduction and applying brakes to any given wheel. Brake traction control (and BLD for FDII) is part of the same module.
 
#50 ·
APT said:
I work for a supplier on ABS/TCS/ESP systems. It's all the same module. Same inputs used, different algorithms for each system, and the same outputs are controlled, brake (apply and isolate) and engine torque reduction. The only difference is the ECC for 4wd MK's can also be used to assist in traction by another module instead of just engine torque reduction and applying brakes to any given wheel. Brake traction control (and BLD for FDII) is part of the same module.
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So would the sound i'm refering to be the BLD or does that happen without any sound so to speak?
 
#51 · (Edited)
The traction control system is applying the brakes. It's quite loud in our MK's comapred to my employer's system. :doh: There may or may not be a specific "brake lock differential" algorithm over the standard "electronic limited slip differential", but it is still ABS/TCS/ESP module building hydraulic pressure on the brake line(s).
 
#55 ·
Here is the response I got from Chrysler Canada.....sounds like they have no clue to me.
How would someone confirm the difference between partial off and full off to verify this is true?
Dear Mr. Hitzy:

Thank you for your email of May 28th, 2008.

We have reviewed your file with our Technical Services Support Group.
According to our resources, if you press and hold the ESP button in your
2008 Jeep Patriot for 5 seconds, the ESP will disable as intended and
the "car with squiggly lines" lamp will be lit solid, but the words "ESP
DISABLED" will not appear in the odometer. Regrettably, your vehicle
model was not equipped with the emblem "ESP DISABLED" as indicated in
your vehicle's owner's manual.

We have mailed you a $50.00 Mopar coupon that can be used towards the
purchase of Mopar accessories that are specifically designed to fit your
vehicle. To view a list of available accessories, please visit the
Parts department of Ottawa Chrysler Jeep during your next maintenance
visit.

May we take this opportunity to thank you for your Chrysler purchase.
We certainly hope you enjoy your vehicle for many years to come.
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#56 ·
I was curious, so I lifted my Patriot off the ground today. I assumed the rear wheels would stay still when not in 4x4 mode. Not so. I assumed if I steered the wheel left or right the ESP would activate and stop the rear wheel on the side towards the turn. Not so. That being the case I had to set it back down learning nothing I wanted to know.
 
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#57 ·
jepstr67 said:
I was curious, so I lifted my Patriot off the ground today. I assumed the rear wheels would stay still when not in 4x4 mode. Not so. I assumed if I steered the wheel left or right the ESP would activate and stop the rear wheel on the side towards the turn. Not so. That being the case I had to set it back down learning nothing I wanted to know.
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About the only thing I can think of that would help determine if ESP is partial off or full off, is to try and do donuts in the snow. I think the roll over prevention part of ESP (which is on in Partial Off) would try and keep you from spinning sideways......but I could be way off here?
 
#58 ·
Hitzy said:
About the only thing I can think of that would help determine if ESP is partial off or full off, is to try and do donuts in the snow. I think the roll over prevention part of ESP (which is on in Partial Off) would try and keep you from spinning sideways......but I could be way off here?
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Oh GREAT Hitzy.....Now you tell me. Like a guy can find snow this time of year. On the summer solstice no less. ;) :):D
 
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#60 ·
Hitzy said:
You could wet your front lawn down and do donuts on the grass.....:smiley_thumbs_up:
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I'd have to make a video of my neighbors reacting. I bet I could win on funniest home videos.

I have been driving places where I think the car might get stuck around my property. So far no "luck". I figure if I can get it stuck, then I can add 4x4, then turn ESP off, then Full OFF, if none of that works, go get the J-10 and the tow strap.
 
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