[homac]

Sounds like some progress is being made. Keep us posted.

If you cannot fully disable ESP (i.e. the computer jumps in, braking and moving power around) you essentially do not have a 4x4.

They have to fix it, or take the vehicle back as it is not a 4x4.

 

[Hitzy]

I have an email off to Chrysler Canada......we'll see what they have to say.

 

[Schoat333]

hmm so since my patriot has full esp off mode and is an FDI it was programmed wrong? seems odd.

p.s. the AWL package refers to the FDII option

From kelly blue books website.

AWL • Sport 4WD w/QOP-2*E 1,210.00 1,315.00
(N/A 2WD Models) Includes Air Filtration System, 140-Amp Alternator, Badging, Engine Cooling, Brake Lock Differential, Fog Lights, Hill Descent Control, Off-Road Mode, Driver's Ht Seat Adjuster, Fuel Tank & Oil Pan Skid Plates, Conventional Spare Tire, P215/65R17 All Terrain OWL Tires, Tow Hooks & Aluminum Wheels.

 

[APT]

If you cannot fully disable ESP (i.e. the computer jumps in, braking and moving power around) you essentially do not have a 4x4.

I don't agree. The only way we have 4WD is ESP. Otherwise, it is only 2WD, one front an one rear wheel.

I did some experimenting yesterday by getting one wheel off the ground. With ESP Off and 4WD locked, I wasn't moving. With ESP on, I slowly made progress. I had the clutch all the way out in 1st gear both times. It seems like what others have said that brake TC really is disabled with ESP off, not what the owner's manual says where electronic LSD is never disabled. I wish I had given more throttle both times to see if 5-spds have the 1200rpm limiting issue the CVT folks have. I didn't notice how high I got, but my guess is under 1500rpm. Another day. Rear left tire that was in the air spun a little, but not much. Mostly, front right.

ESP off seems only required/useful for snow, gravel, and sand where you want to oversteer/4-wheel drift. It comes back on >35mph anyway.

 

[jepstr67]

I spent several hours at the dealer today. They were very good about the issue, after them spending quite some time on the phone with StartConnect I think they called it (basically Chrysler).

The consensus was... wait for it...

Chrysler did not have an answer.

Credit to the dealer, they took back the 08 Pat that I had and put me in a new 07 (must have been on the lot a while) Limited FDII... woo hoo.

I do agree that this should be fixed, if they turn round and say that the ESPOFF does not apply to the FDI then that is a case of false advertising. The Vehicle manual states that it applies to all 4x4 systems, no where on the jeep.com site does it say different.

I can certainly recommend the dealer that I went to, its a small family business and they do take care of their customers.

Martin

I have not heard back from Chrysler since I wrote and demanded a recall to fix this programming error. I also forbid them to refer me to my dealer until my dealer had a fix in hand from Jeep. Usually thay are back to me in less than a day.

Attention everyone who has a car that will not chime and display "ESP OFF" Please, call, write, or E-mail Jeep and demand a recall. If all of us request this directly from Jeep, it will be better than people going to the dealer a few at a time. Be perfectly clear that you will not waste your time going to the dealer until Jeep has issued instructions to the dealers as to how to repair this problem!

Respectfully, I disagree with anyone who is willing to accept any BS that the car should not do what the manual says. Chime and show "ESP OFF"

 

[APT]

FWIW, I expect my vehciles to behave per the owner's manual. If my ESP did not fully disable when my owner's manual says it can, I'd be pissed. I've probably logged more miles with ESP is partial off than any other mode, but I have used ESP Off for some snow when I first got my Compass. It's just fun!

 

[homac]

Irregardless if you have an FDI or FDII if you have the "4x4" model you need to be able to fully disable ESP. Otherwise you would have a 1x4, 2x4 or 3x4 and only sometimes a 4x4!

There are times you need all four wheels to grind away, even if one of them is slipping. 9/10 times ESP is a good thing, however you still need the option to disable. In addition the manual is quite clear all 4x4 models (FDI and FDII) can disable ESP when required.

<repost of manual>

ESP OFF (4WD Models Only)
This mode is intended for off-highway or off-road use when ESP stability features could inhibit vehicle maneuverability due to trail conditions. This mode is entered by depressing and holding the “ESP Control Switch” for 5 seconds when the vehicle is stopped and the engine is running. After 5 seconds, the “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” will illuminate and the “ESP Off” message will appear in the odometer. Press and release the trip odometer button located on the instrument cluster to clear this message. In this mode, ESP and TCS, except for the “limited slip” feature described in the TCS section, are turned off until the vehicle reaches a speed of 35 mph (56 km/h). At 35 mph (56 km/h) the normal ESP stability function returns with the exception of engine power reduction. TCS remains off. When the vehicle speed drops below 30 mph (48 km/h) the ESP system shuts off. ESP is off at low vehicle speeds so that it will not interfere with off-road driving but ESP function returns to provide the stability feature at speeds above 35 mph (56 km/h). The “ESP/ TCS Indicator Light” will always be illuminated when ESP is off.

 

[APT]

The difference between Partial ESP and ESP off is whether the system uses yaw rate/steering angle/lateral acceleration vs. vehicle speed to apply brake and/or cut engine power. @ low speeds, using Partial ESP is probably good enough for most trails to allow wheel slip. Partial ESP still = 4x4 with brake applied wheel/axle control and ECC locking up.

 

[Hitzy]

I think the "partial off" could be done away with......just on, or full off. I think the majority of Patriot owners would be cool with that. I still haven't heard anything from Chrysler Canada.

 

[APT]

I like Partial Off. With 4WD and our power to weight ratio, I don't need the engine cutting power because one wheel caught a pothole on dry/wet/gravel before ECC splits power to the rear. I almost always drive in ESP Partial mode. That still give me stability control for on-road emergency situations.

 

[Jeeporama]

Partial ESP = partial 4x4. If you want 4x4 by its pure defintion you need to be able to disable ESP.

Otherwise Jeep will need to take that 4x4 logo off.

The difference between Partial ESP and ESP off is whether the system uses yaw rate/steering angle/lateral acceleration vs. vehicle speed to apply brake and/or cut engine power. @ low speeds, using Partial ESP is probably good enough for most trails to allow wheel slip. Partial ESP still = 4x4 with brake applied wheel/axle control and ECC locking up.

 

[jepstr67]

I'm really starting to see the merits of my CJ where you just move the lever to 4x4 and you KNOW it's in 4x4.

There is no position called maybe 4x4 or kind of 4x4.

Low tech is better. KISS

 

[timeburgler]

If your ESP button works (FDI or FDII) you have 4x4. You would only loose 4x4 if you cannot fully disable ESP, then you have a 1x4, 2x4, 3x4 ect.

I'm really starting to see the merits of my CJ where you just move the lever to 4x4 and you KNOW it's in 4x4.

There is no position called maybe 4x4 or kind of 4x4.

Low tech is better. KISS

 

[jeepin1995]

i was having problems with my 08 FD1..... it would ding at me and "esp off" would show up in the odometer area, as well as the skidding car symbol..... but the ESP didn't seem like it was actually off..... i took it to the dealer, they "fixed" it, now i can't turn it fully off at all. they say it's fixed and operating correctly and it only goes off in 4wd..... but i can't get it to go off there either..... i honestly don't think they have a clue.......

 

[jeep_creeper]

It almost sounds as if the dealers still do not have a handle on all the computerized technology. Sadly, it is only going to get worse as the computers take over more and more of the controls of the car.

 

[jepstr67]

It almost sounds as if the dealers still do not have a handle on all the computerized technology. Sadly, it is only going to get worse as the computers take over more and more of the controls of the car.

They will never improve on the lever. :doh:

 

[APT]

How do you people get 1WD, 2WD, 3WD from

This feature remains active even if TCS and ESP are in either the “Partial Off” or “ESP Off” modes. Refer to “Electronic Stability Program (ESP)” in this Section of this manual.

?

There are 3 parts of control since we have open differentials. Beakes to any/multiple wheels, reduce engien torque to less than driver requests, and locking the center coupler to engage the rear axle.

All 2WD MK's are 2WD (both front) with brake applied LSD in both ESP modes (ESP normal and ESP partial).

All 4WD MK's are AWD with 4x4 lock not engaged (Electronic Center COupler engaged as necessary) and 4WD with 4x4 locked (ECC locked for 50/50 torque split between axles)). Both Partial ESP and ESP Off disable engine torque reduction! Still have brakes and 4WD lock control. ESP Off just disables the brake-applied ESC (engine torque reduction is already disabled) for times of understeer/oversteer. You still get the brake applied LSD in both ESP Partial and off.

 

[homac]

I know what you are saying APT.

The point is there are times when you want all 4 wheels to slowly grind away and the computer interaction causes problems. (deep sand and snow are two examples)

In those cases if you cannot fully disable ESP, you essentially do not have a 4x4.

How do you people get 1WD, 2WD, 3WD from ?

 

[APT]

Our Jeeps have 2 open differentials. If we did not have ESP/TCS, we would have at best, 1 front and 1 rear wheel drive with the tire with the least amount of friction spinning forever. The only way it can grind away spinning all 4 wheels is by the brake applied electronic LSD "feature" of the TCS system. For deep sand and snow, the manual clearly says partial off should be used. I know you copy and pasted from the manual, but did you read what you copied?

 

[Schoat333]

Our Jeeps have 2 open differentials. If we did not have ESP/TCS, we would have at best, 1 front and 1 rear wheel drive with the tire with the least amount of friction spinning forever. The only way it can grind away spinning all 4 wheels is by the brake applied electronic LSD "feature" of the TCS system. For deep sand and snow, the manual clearly says partial off should be used. I know you copy and pasted from the manual, but did you what you copied?

Im with APT on this one. the partial off mode disables the engine timing retard. this is really the more important thing to disable as you need the extra torque to overcome the brake lock differentials.