Jeep warns European Customers against 5W-20

ohiobuckintx · Mar 6, 2008

pdx_pat said:
5 quarts of Chevron 5W 20 @ $2.50 a pop is $12.50, plus $6.99 for the filter, comes out to $19.49, plus 30-60 minutes of labor.

I think the Patriot is one of the easiest vehicles I've ever had to change the oil on.

Definately not hard to change the oil, but all of my dodges have been relatively pain free to change.

I am still trying to figure out why it would take an hour to change the oil (it did the first time I did mine but that was because i couldnt get the filter off) Now I am done in 20 minutes)

jp-ajdayt · Mar 8, 2008

Maybe you could add 2 quarts of 5w-20 and then add 2 quarts of 5w-30 and get an oil mixture of intermediate qualities. But I don't know if this would work or if there is some good reason not to do it?

homac · Mar 8, 2008

MrSensible, unfortunately further digging apart from the manual is needed.

5w-20 was specified to improve CAFE numbers and EPA emissions performance (see link below):

EPA Letter

The change is 'extremely' small, however across thousands of automobiles the EPA is allowing North American automakers to improve their CAFE numbers if they specificy 5w-20 and nothing else.

Thankfully the European car makers will not have any of it and simply specify the oil that best protects the vehicle.

MrSensible said:
You know, I have an 08 and I checked the entire manual and there was no insert or anything else for that matter other than the book. There is a third book for updates and corrections, but nothing in there about oil. The 08 manual still says 5w-20.

By the way, engineers will not spec oil to improve CAFE mileage or EPA emissions performance. I personally can't even begin to think how a change in viscosity would even begin to improve those numbers unless you went to the extremes. I still say that the oil type is spec'd by the engineer factors of the design. Oil needs to flow freely through the engine or more specifically the oil ports in the block and head. It needs to be thick enough that the pump can pump it up to the head. It needs to be thin enough to penetrate the bearings, guides and bushings effectively, provide ample "splash" during operation of the crank to lube the cylinder walls, yet thick enough to be an effective lubricant for those parts and not leak through seals.

jepstr67 · Mar 23, 2008

Isn't government supposed to act in our best interests.:doh:

I think I'll be using 5w30.

Engineeringtech · Jan 12, 2009

metalhead said:
Thats what the lifetime powertrain warranty is for. If the owners manual says 5w-20 thats what I'm going to use. If the engine blows up or whatever they can give me a new one. I did think it was kind of odd that the patriot uses 5w-20 when most vehicles today use 5w-30. In winter 5w-20 is fine but in summer though I would think you would want the 5w-30.

I bought my Patriot a couple months before they offered the lifetime powertrain warranty. I was later told I could buy the lifetime warranty for $900 - $1500 depending on deductible! This is the only dealer nearby, and since they have never fixed any of the complaints I have had with my '07 Patriot, I consider that a waste of money.

So I'm going to use the oil I think is going to protect my engine the best, not the oil that Jeep wants me to use so their fleet average MPG is high enough to avoid federal sanctions.

One more thing. Another writer claimed 5W20 flows better in winter than 5W30. It's my understanding that the multi-weight oil acts like single viscosity 5 weight in the winter, but in summer temperatures, protects like a 30 weight oil. So I don't think 5W20 was selected to protect the engine during the winter. It was selected to increase fuel efficiency.

flattop · Jan 12, 2009

I swiched to 5w30 at my first oil change & am averaging 24.5 mpg. That's fine with me & I like the idea of better engine protection. I plan to keep my pat for a long time.

Engineeringtech · Jun 19, 2009

flattop said:
I swiched to 5w30 at my first oil change & am averaging 24.5 mpg. That's fine with me & I like the idea of better engine protection. I plan to keep my pat for a long time.

I think you are making a wise move..

As one of the earliest buyers of a Patriot, I missed out on the "lifetime powertrain warranty" by only a couple months. I was really steamed. They later offered it to me for $1500. What a laugh....

I don't think Jeep's motivation in pushing 5W20 in the US had anything to do with good engineering practices. I think it was to eke out a tiny bit more MPG, raising their "fleet average" and thus avoiding EPA fines. They don't care about people like me who don't have the benefit of the lifetime warranty.

Engineeringtech · Jun 19, 2009

Reason for the higher charge

Terasec said:
asked the dealer about the oil
all they stated is until they have instructions to do otherwise they have to use what is listed and for the pat thats 5w20,
also this dealer is now charging $50 for oil changes using the 5w20,
other oil they are just charging the $30,
first time i have come across that in 15K miles,
wondering if others are seeing higher prices for oil changes using 5w20

Why do you think they are charging more for 5W20? It's not that it's more expensive. It's because they are funding their future warranty repairs!

Engineeringtech · Jun 19, 2009

MrSensible said:
...engineers will not spec oil to improve CAFE mileage or EPA emissions performance. I personally can't even begin to think how a change in viscosity would even begin to improve those numbers unless you went to the extremes.

It's very simple. Lighter oil creates less drag, requiring less horsepower (and fuel) to turn engines over. As for the need to go extremely thin to ensure that tightly fitting engine components are properly lubed... I have worked in engineering for over 25 years. I don't believe Patriot engines use tighter running tolerances than any other modern engine.

homac · Jun 19, 2009

I agree completely.

5w-20 and 5w-30 are the same when cold "5w". The tolerence/clearance rumour goes right out the window.

Once the engine is warm 5w-20 does have less resistance on the motor as mentioned hence very slightly increase in fuel economy in the short term. After several years one would see slightly more wear and subsequently slightly poorer fuel economy.

Real world the differences are quite small. The fact that Europe and Asia do not recommend or sell 5w-20 sends a warning bell. Reading this and other groups many are going to 5w-30 or 5w-30 synthetics to play it safe.

Engineeringtech said:
It's very simple. Lighter oil creates less drag, requiring less horsepower (and fuel) to turn engines over. As for the need to go extremely thin to ensure that tightly fitting engine components are properly lubed... I have worked in engineering for over 25 years. I don't believe Patriot engines use tighter running tolerances than any other modern engine.

Boy George · Jun 19, 2009

I had my first oil change done just last week at 6k kms. Went to a Chrysler/Jeep dealer to do it, to make sure my warranty is not threatened in any way (cost 65 Euro/90USD :wow

. I asked what kind of oil they use and they said - the type prescribed for your vehicle and supplied to us by Chrysler - Mopar 5W20!!! This oil is also clearly stated on the invoice. So it aparently isn`t true that european dealers have instructions to use 5W30. They didn`t even know if it`s synthetic or not! I was surprised, because I usualy used Castrol 5W40 in my other cars. And today I stumble across this thread and am really frustrated as to which type of oil is correct for the Pat and serves the engine best

. Is it such a big deal to get a straight answer from Chrysler on this issue?

I would appreciate all european Pats reading this to inform here regarding what type of oil their dealerships/services use (not the oil owners use by their choice). If it shows up that the oil type isn`t the same at all Chryslers around Europe (Mopar 5W20), I`m writing an inquiry about this to Chrysler HQ

Also I found something on this subject on the Net - undoubtedly a marketing inspired move by Amsoil, but informative non the less.

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

tiptronic · Jun 19, 2009

If this TSB is real ??Then it must be just a Euro thing not UK. My 2 litre gas Caliber always used 5W-20 as supplied by dealer.I still have my old Caliber Hand/Service book( I had 2 for some reason , the other one went with the Cali. when I swapped it) No Addendum in It & clearly states 5W-20 oil to be used. In fact these oils are so similar , its hardly worth worrying about!!!!

Boy George · Jun 19, 2009

Tippy, you don`t consider UK to be a part of Europe?

tiptronic · Jun 19, 2009

Yep Part of Europe!!--However being an offshore Island we always seem a little Isolated over here!!

I am a Stong believer in the " Common Market" for commerce , trade & industry--But the quicker we can get out of the " European Union" the better.

I think the British are now a bit fed up uncontrolled cross border Immigration & having 70% of our Laws , which affect our every day lives , being decided by faceless beaurocrats hundreds of miles away in Brussels. People who have very little understanding Or knowledge of the British way of life & what is best for them.

Bring on the refferendum so we can vote on getting out--Nobody ever asked us if we wanted to go in--!!!!!

Boy George · Jun 19, 2009

Well, it`s all about democracy ... I hope ... do you have a political party that`s against the EU beaurocratism? Next time vote them! The Czech Rep. is the only EU country beside Ireland kicking against the Brussels dominance, but it`s too small and insignificant to change things ... :doh:

wpeck2 · Jun 20, 2009

I believe that at higher speed, the engine oil will spend less time in the crankcase (oil pan) where it cools, so it will run hotter. This is why race cars have oil coolers. Tow vehicles work harder and run hotter and also need oil coolers. Too much heat is bad for engines (and oil). I run 5w30 in the Summer because if I'm doing 75mph on the freeway with the AC on and a load of people and gear, that engine can use whatever break it gets.

UPKEV · Jun 20, 2009

wpeck2 said:
I believe that at higher speed, the engine oil will spend less time in the crankcase (oil pan) where it cools, so it will run hotter. This is why race cars have oil coolers. Tow vehicles work harder and run hotter and also need oil coolers. Too much heat is bad for engines (and oil). I run 5w30 in the Summer because if I'm doing 75mph on the freeway with the AC on and a load of people and gear, that engine can use whatever break it gets.

Sounds like a full synthetic 5w20 would provide more insurance than conventional 5w30.

homac · Jun 20, 2009

No doubt it is real. Can you now purchase 5w-20 in stores in Europe? Last year when I was there you could not find it and only 5w-30 could be found. No wonder Chrysler went bankrupt playing games like this.

TSB 26-001-07 5w-30

Here are some other links previously posted:

Chrysler Letter 5w-30

US EPA and CAFE

tiptronic said:
If this TSB is real ??Then it must be just a Euro thing not UK. My 2 litre gas Caliber always used 5W-20 as supplied by dealer.I still have my old Caliber Hand/Service book( I had 2 for some reason , the other one went with the Cali. when I swapped it) No Addendum in It & clearly states 5W-20 oil to be used. In fact these oils are so similar , its hardly worth worrying about!!!!

Boy George · Jun 21, 2009

I searched around to find out that none of the leading oil manuf. (Shell, Mobil, Castrol, etc.) DO NOT offer any 5W20 oils in this country. You can get it ONLY from the local MOPAR parts/oil supplier for 13$ per litre :doh:

homac · Jun 21, 2009

Glad you confirmed this. I did not see 5w-20 in Germany either.

I believe the focus for European and Asian automakers is to build more fuel efficent engines rather than fool around with thinner oils. Use a synthetic 5w-30 next time you change your oil and you will have nothing to worry about.

Boy George said:
I searched around to find out that none of the leading oil manuf. (Shell, Mobil, Castrol, etc.) DO NOT offer any 5W20 oils in this country. You can get it ONLY from the local MOPAR parts/oil supplier for 13$ per litre :doh:

Jeep warns European Customers against 5W-20

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homac

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Engineeringtech

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Engineeringtech

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homac

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tiptronic

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wpeck2

UPKEV

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