Maybe it is because I work for an automotive supplier on ESP systems that I am so picky about the terminology used and how it actually works. I really dislike some of Chrysler's design requreiments and terminology used.

You cannot fully disable ESP according to the owner's manual. Brake applied TCS is always availible for all three modes. Over 35mph, ESP is always enabled. ESP Off is usefull for 10-35mph speeds on sand and snow where you want to oversteer/4-wheel drift. If ESP were enabled, it would determine that the steering angle relative to how much lateral acceleration and yaw rate (how much the car is spinning) the vehicle has is not safe and apply brakes to "help" the driver along the intended (biased by steering angle) path. This has more to do with lateral grip than wheel spin. For low speed rock climing or 2/3-wheels teetering where you need help because of our open differentials, Partial ESP is probably enough. It seems Chrysler thinks no one should drift over 35mph. Probably a good speed to limit for most drivers, but I wish off were off!

Just because ESP is fully disabled you would not be left with 1 wheel violently spinning robbing power from the other. I know this first hand.

Which just proves ESP is not truely disabled, ever. The owners manual implies that all three ESP modes would apply brakes to try to get all 4 wheels spinning, not just ESP Off mode. In ESP normal mode, it may also cut engine torque (by retading spark and limiting the electronic throttle plate).

My own experiementing has questioned the accuracy of the owner's manual descriptions to implementation. I need more experience, though.

Homac, I don't mean to offend you. Just wanted to make sure we are reading and interpreting the same thing. It seemed quite clear how it is written that brake applie TCS is never disabled for any of the 3 ESP modes and that's how we get anything more than 1 wheel driven per axle.

 

Which just proves ESP is not truely disabled, ever. The owners manual implies that all three ESP modes would apply brakes to try to get all 4 wheels spinning, not just ESP Off mode. In ESP normal mode, it may also cut engine torque (by retading spark and limiting the electronic throttle plate).

You're confusing TCS with ESP. Brake traction control system is another layered module. ESP can be fully disabled, TCS cannot.

 

maybe some useful info for those with problems..... went to the dealer today, printed this whole thread, the service manager read every post..... was amazed it was such an issue. talked with chrysler and worked on the pat all day, may have determined the ABS module is malfunctioning..... the module controls the ABS and ESP. the esp portion of it is messed up..... or so they say. they ordered a new modlue and should have it installed next week. i'll popst results then.

 

I hate to add my questions to the already somewhat confusing thread but here is my question.

I've messed around in deep snow and mud since getting my pat, now the esp modes all work as stated in the manual BUT:

Leaving the gear shift it D with 4x4 locked on with the esp full off allows the wheels to spin freely.

Putting it into L with 4x4 locked with esp full off seems to still spin all the wheels but I get that grinding sound like the esp system is working, so what is the deal with that???

I"m totally happy with my pat i just can't seem to figure out why I here the esp system when its in low mode 4x4 vs just being 4x4 in the drive position.

 

I"m totally happy with my pat i just can't seem to figure out why I here the esp system when its in low mode 4x4 vs just being 4x4 in the drive position.

Possible in low mode, it's much easier to spin the tires up to 35mph where ESP re-engages?

 

What i mean is that the wheels still spin freely, as in lose traction on the muddy surface but it sounds like the esp is doing something, even though it is in full off.....i'll try to grab a friend and go out to this one spot I always go and do some tests.

 

I work for a supplier on ABS/TCS/ESP systems. It's all the same module. Same inputs used, different algorithms for each system, and the same outputs are controlled, brake (apply and isolate) and engine torque reduction. The only difference is the ECC for 4wd MK's can also be used to assist in traction by another module instead of just engine torque reduction and applying brakes to any given wheel. Brake traction control (and BLD for FDII) is part of the same module.

 

So would the sound i'm refering to be the BLD or does that happen without any sound so to speak?

 

The traction control system is applying the brakes. It's quite loud in our MK's comapred to my employer's system. :doh: There may or may not be a specific "brake lock differential" algorithm over the standard "electronic limited slip differential", but it is still ABS/TCS/ESP module building hydraulic pressure on the brake line(s).

 

the ESP/ABS module is what the dealer said was wrong with my pat..... the part came in today, will be installed monday

 

Keep us posted how things turn out jeepin1995. Interested to confirm if that ESP/ABS module was in fact the culprit.

 

took it in yesterday..... they replaced the module...... still no go....... they are clueless, the service manager is contacting chrysler to try to figure it out.

 

Here is the response I got from Chrysler Canada.....sounds like they have no clue to me.
How would someone confirm the difference between partial off and full off to verify this is true?

Dear Mr. Hitzy:

Thank you for your email of May 28th, 2008.

We have reviewed your file with our Technical Services Support Group.
According to our resources, if you press and hold the ESP button in your
2008 Jeep Patriot for 5 seconds, the ESP will disable as intended and
the "car with squiggly lines" lamp will be lit solid, but the words "ESP
DISABLED" will not appear in the odometer. Regrettably, your vehicle
model was not equipped with the emblem "ESP DISABLED" as indicated in
your vehicle's owner's manual.

We have mailed you a $50.00 Mopar coupon that can be used towards the
purchase of Mopar accessories that are specifically designed to fit your
vehicle. To view a list of available accessories, please visit the
Parts department of Ottawa Chrysler Jeep during your next maintenance
visit.

May we take this opportunity to thank you for your Chrysler purchase.
We certainly hope you enjoy your vehicle for many years to come.

 

The only real difference between partial off and all the way off is that the traction control system (TCS) woorks differently.

It isn't turning the ESP on and off you want so much as you want the TCS to allow more wheel spin. In some situaions it is desireable to have wheel spin allowed.

With full ESP on, the systems can actually cut throttle to avoid excessive skidding.

With partial ESP it doesn't mess with the throttle but still applies full traction control.

With ESP all the way off it don't mess with anything at all (at least not very much) and you can spin, slide, and skid all you want.

 

I was curious, so I lifted my Patriot off the ground today. I assumed the rear wheels would stay still when not in 4x4 mode. Not so. I assumed if I steered the wheel left or right the ESP would activate and stop the rear wheel on the side towards the turn. Not so. That being the case I had to set it back down learning nothing I wanted to know.

 

About the only thing I can think of that would help determine if ESP is partial off or full off, is to try and do donuts in the snow. I think the roll over prevention part of ESP (which is on in Partial Off) would try and keep you from spinning sideways......but I could be way off here?

 

ESP only helps with understeer/oversteer. In order to test if ESP is truely off, you'll have to drive fast enough to get the vehicle to over/understeer, but slower than the 35mph nanny comes back to reenable it.

I can get ESP to apply brakes (when enabled ) on a gravel road quite easily. I just treat the road like a slolam. Do you have any near you?

 

ESP only helps with understeer/oversteer. In order to test if ESP is truely off, you'll have to drive fast enough to get the vehicle to over/understeer, but slower than the 35mph nanny comes reenables it.

I can get ESP to apply brakes (when enabled ) on a gravel road quite easily. I just trat the road like a slolam. Do you have any near you?

That could be fun. I'll have to try that.

 

PatriotPierre, you can try a reflash although I would simply put the onus on the Dealer to get this fixed.

If the dealer gives you a rough time show them the manual (all 4WD/4x4 models need to be able to turn off ESP). Keep us posted on how things go.

 

In addition to leaning on the dealer, write or call Chrysler directly. The more they hear from all of us the more likely we will be to get this resolved.

 

Partial off disables the limiting of engine torque, which allows for wheel spin. I almost always drive in Partial Off mode. I don't need some expansion joint or pothole reducing power when I'm pulling into traffic (yes, it has happened). With AWD and 172hp @ the crank, the MK does not have anough power for all 4 wheels to slip until snow/ice/mud. Even gravel roads have minimal wheel slip. The Brake LSD is fine, which we can never disable anyway.

 

That is a good idea APT. I am going to try that on the drive home today.

 

got a call from the service manager monday..... chrysler finally called him back..... or so he says..... they say they discovered it needs an "update" and will take a month or 2 to get it "approved" so they can do it..... what the heck..... this sucks.....

 

Mine is a Limited 4X4 FD1 seems to have the same problem as everyone elses, calling the dealer now

 

Well it appears they have a fix pending. Keep us posted.

If you cannot fully turn off ESP on a 4x4 you may as well be driving FWD only. I am surprised it has taken this long to admit there is an issue. Keep taking them to the dealer folks.

 

If you cannot fully turn off ESP on a 4x4 you may as well be driving FWD only.

I still do not understand your logic. What does ESP have to do with the electronic center coupler? With ESP never disabled problem that some people have, the vehcile will just not understeer/oversteer much before the ESP system kicks in. Every ESP mode always have 4WD lock availlible and AWD/automatic ECC all the time as well as brake applied electronic limited slip.

Does your vehicle allow ESP Off? Have you ever experienced the difference between the three modes?

Do not misunderstand me, though. I would not be happy if I could not disable ESP if my owner's manual said I could. I do not think most people would notice, however. And >35mph, it is on even if the ESP Off mode works.

 

Where do we stand on this issue? I just walked outside to give it a shot as I got my pat 2 weeks ago...and low and behold, it won't go into fully off.

Any updates?

I'm going to the dealer on Saturday for my 1000 mile check.

 

ESP off

There is a fix for the ESP full off problem

TSB 05-004-08
Group brakes
Date 10/30/08

www.

wkjeeps.com/misc/Patriot/TSB/tsb_0500408.pdf

I cannot post a url until I have 5 post, but if you type in the line above after the WWW. you should go to the TSB site

Good luck

ps my deal is aware of this issue

 

That's the fix. Printed the TSB & dropped off at dealer. They did it in about 1/2 hr & ESP full off works now.