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More 5W20 info...

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#141 ·
Well put ! Thank-you for beating me to the punch.


homac said:
This thread is packed with evidence such as:

  • How and why 5w-20 was initially introduced
  • EPA involvement and CAFE targets/penalties
  • EPA approval of requests to use 5w-20 to acheive CAFE targets
  • Documentation linking 5w-20 to short term fuel economy
  • Use of 5w-20 in North America but not elsewhere in the world
  • Same engines with different motor oil recommendations (i.e. GEMA World Engine)
  • SAE, ILSAC, API and ACEA specifications (not from the car companies)
  • Documentation recommending against the use of 5w-20 in harsh conditions

Now, you do not have to agree with this information, but "opinion based" ??
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#142 ·
homac said:
Sorry you are incorrect. Here, let me provide some insight:
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Once again you fail to do any reasearch. Let me give you some insight on how the EPA approves all automotive fluids. Here are the certification guidelines and approval for 5w20, 5w30, 10w30 gf-4 spec oils. Note "emissions and fuel economy testing". The EPA most approve all engine fluids.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/cert/dearmfr/ccd0407.pdf

Yes lets keep our eye on the ball. I am going to boil this all down. I have posted several used oil analysis for 5w-20 that show no increased wear. Please post an used oil analysis for 5w-20 that shows above average wear. You are the one who keeps making this claim, not me. So back it up.

The bottom line is you have still yet to provide anything that shows 5w-20 increases engine wear which is what you claim.
 
#143 ·
I think we can say there is an agreement to disagree. No need to say we have failed to do any research as much information/links have been provided on both sides of the debate.

Regarding the EPA, you are confirming what the previous post indicated. The EPA performs the "emissions and fuel economy testing" used for CAFE purposes.

I am confident all things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear.

The evidence supports that claim.


roberttroll said:
Once again you fail to do any reasearch. Let me give you some insight on how the EPA approves all automotive fluids. Here are the certification guidelines and approval for 5w20, 5w30, 10w30 gf-4 spec oils. Note "emissions and fuel economy testing". The EPA most approve all engine fluids.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/cert/dearmfr/ccd0407.pdf

Yes lets keep our eye on the ball. I am going to boil this all down. I have posted several used oil analysis for 5w-20 that show no increased wear. Please post an used oil analysis for 5w-20 that shows above average wear. You are the one who keeps making this claim, not me. So back it up.

The bottom line is you have still yet to provide anything that shows 5w-20 increases engine wear which is what you claim.
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#145 · (Edited)
homac said:
I am confident all things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear.

The evidence supports that claim.
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Yes you and others are personally confident of that. Thats fine.

The core of the matter has always been, and always will be evidence that 5w20 increases engine wear. However in the almost SEVEN years that 5w20 has been in service on hundreds of thousands of cars in every possible environment, there is ZERO used oil analysis or scientific study that indicates it increased engine wear. Those are the facts, there is no scientific evidence. And you know this because if there was one it would be posted all over the place by the 5w20 skeptics. There is alot of gut feelings, and opinions but that is it. Not a single posted bad analysis after SEVEN YEARS of use!

Hunter I 100% agree that any conventional or better 5w20 that meets the Ford spec (which is adopted by Honda) is better than conventional 5w30. Which so far is every 5w20 that i can find.

Now if you really want to argue about motor oils get an AMSOIL guy to join the conversation..

Over and OUT....
 
#146 ·
roberttroll said:
The core of the matter has always been, and always will be evidence that 5w20 increases engine wear.
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Sorry to butt in guys, but the core of the matter has always been, and always will be evidence that 5w-20 protects as good or better than 5w-30 all things being equal. However even if we go with 5w-20 increasing engine wear, that evidence exists throughout this thread.



roberttroll said:
However in the almost SEVEN years that 5w20 has been in service on hundreds of thousands of cars in every possible environment, there is ZERO used oil analysis or scientific study that indicates it increased engine wear. Those are the facts, there is no scientific evidence. And you know this because if there was one it would be posted all over the place by the 5w20 skeptics. There is alot of gut feelings, and opinions but that is it. Not a single posted bad analysis after SEVEN YEARS of use!
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Thank-you for mentioning this. After SEVEN years of 5w-20 use in North America the rest of the world has still not adopted it! If 5w-20 protects the same and saves fuel why is it not being used worldwide?

The answer like the man said: "all things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear."



roberttroll said:
Hunter I 100% agree that any conventional or better 5w20 that meets the Ford spec (which is adopted by Honda) is better than conventional 5w30. Which so far is every 5w20 that i can find.
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I think we may agree on this point. Synthetic offers better protection then conventional dinosaur oil. Therefore, no sense comparing a synthetic 5w-20 to a conventional 5w-30, or a conventional 5w-20 to a synthetic 5w-30. Start a new thread for that discussion. Oh yea, invite that Amsoil guy.
 
#147 ·
timeburgler said:
Sorry to butt in guys, but the core of the matter has always been, and always will be evidence that 5w-20 protects as good or better than 5w-30 all things being equal. However even if we go with 5w-20 increasing engine wear, that evidence exists throughout this thread.
Click to expand...
Then by all means please post a used oil analysis or scientific study that shows 5w20 increases engine wear.
 
#148 ·
I work as a mechanic and noticed this HUGE thread and had to finally post a note to it. Nothing wrong with 5w-20, however there is no doubt a similar brand of 5w-30 will protect better.

The differences are very small, especially under normal driving conditions but if you drive in very warm, highway driving or trailer towing conditions 5w-20 is not worth the risk.
 
#150 ·
timeburgler said:
Thank-you for mentioning this. After SEVEN years of 5w-20 use in North America the rest of the world has still not adopted it! If 5w-20 protects the same and saves fuel why is it not being used worldwide?
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Because the rest of the world favors diesel engines that use different oil weights. Honestly, they don't care about eeking out 0.5mpg for petrol engines.
 
#153 ·
timeburgler said:
We have provided the links already earlier in this thread. Please proceed with your donation.

Thank-you from everyone in the forum for supporting the site !
Click to expand...

BLA BLA BLA BLA You have not provided Squat.

Please provide us with a link to a used oil analysis or scientific study that shows 5w20 increases engine wear.

If it exists already it should take you a few seconds to call it up.
 
#154 ·
This takes things to an entirely new level. Seriously, if you have the $50 to donate you really should do that anyway. JeepPatriot.com is an excellent resource.

Do not rely on the information already posted in this thread if it does not meet your $50 requirement. Provide evidence showing 5w20 protects as good or better than 5w30 everything else being equal. Then you can spend that $50 on your Patriot.



roberttroll said:
I will donate $50 to the owners of jeeppatriot.com if someone can post a link to any used oil analysis or scientific study that shows 5w20 increases engine wear.
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#155 ·
$50 Donation on the way......

Here are the links. I just checked and if you become a "Site Supporter" your donation can be any amount so $50 would be fine.

"All things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear."

  • Why is 5w20 not recommended for use anywhere outside of North America on any vehicle?
  • Why are manufacturers recommending 5w20 in North America, however recommend 5w30 everywhere else?
  • Why can't you puchase 5w20 outside North America?
  • Is there any documentation showing 5w20 protects better on any engine then 5w30? (i.e. an oil analysis, review or anything)

Mobil 1 Recommendation (5w30 of course)

Mobil1 UK Motor Oil (No 5w20 here)

EPA Letter - CAFE (North American auto retailers, CAFE and 5w20)

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (All about CAFE)

TSB Patriot Europe (5w30 is OK for Jeep Patriot)

Jeep Patriot Parts Manual (Export and North American Engine/Emissions components are the same)

Machinery Lubrication Article (They hate 5w20)

BobistheOilGuy.com (Pretty big fish when it comes to oil info)

GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance) (The World Engine)

GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance) (More on the GEMA World Engine)

American Petroleum Institute (Both 5w30 and 5w20 are approved lubricants)

Society of Automotive Engineers (Same as above)

International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (Same as above)
 
#156 ·
homac said:
This takes things to an entirely new level. Seriously, if you have the $50 to donate you really should do that anyway. JeepPatriot.com is an excellent resource.

Do not rely on the information already posted in this thread if it does not meet your $50 requirement. Provide evidence showing 5w20 protects as good or better than 5w30 everything else being equal. Then you can spend that $50 on your Patriot.
Click to expand...
It is a fantastic resource, on that we agree.

I am simply looking for any UOA or scientific study that shows 5W20 increases wear like you guys claim. I have posted UOA that show no above average wear. I am simply asking for a UOA that backs up your claim that 5w20 increases wear.

It's called putting your money where your mouth is. My Offer still stands.
 
#158 ·
I know I am kinda new here but I have to agree with timeburgler and friends.

$50 to JeepPatriot.com I say ! :smiley_thumbs_up:


roberttroll said:
It is a fantastic resource, on that we agree.

I am simply looking for any UOA or scientific study that shows 5W20 increases wear like you guys claim. I have posted UOA that show no above average wear. I am simply asking for a UOA that backs up your claim that 5w20 increases wear.

It's called putting your money where your mouth is. My Offer still stands.
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#160 ·
If you do not believe the overwelming information provided not much more I can do.

O.K. how about this:

  • I start a new thread with a poll attached
  • Provide your links/evidence in one post below the poll
  • Question: Which viscosity of motor oil protects better all things being equal, 5w20 or 5w30?
  • Answers: 5w20 or 5w30
  • Poll to last 14 days

Provide your $50 donation to a forum admin with a promise not to charge until the poll is over.


roberttroll said:
What land do you people live in?

NONE of those links go to a UOA or scientific study that shows 5W20 increasing engine wear. NOT A SINGLE ONE!
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