More 5W20 info...

roberttroll · Apr 15, 2008

timeburgler said:
5w-20 is not a "Ford spec". It is a convention used to categorize oil by viscosity. If a motor oil is categorized as 5w-20 in North America it will also be categorized as such in Europe ( IF you can find 5w-20 there )

5W20 is a weight, that is 1 part of the equation. FORD said "we want a thinner oil, but it has to meet a more stringent spec" That is Part 2 of the equation. That spec is outlined in WSS-m2c153-H. FORD was the driving force behind 5w20. Ford Motocraft was the first 5w20 oil. That is not even up for debate. I posted above a link stating that Ford wants it's European dealers to use it.

Here is yet another link that lays it out in clear terms.

http://www.bullittarchive.com/5012.htm

timeburgler said:
5w-20 has been around a while, yet still not being used elsewhere outside North America. That point just ain't going away no matter how much we debate it. The larger question is why?

Thats not a point. It is a false assumption that American Automobiles are the standard by which all others must live up to. Why are you confused that American Engineered Cars represent a MINORITY of the cars on the road in Europe, and that European Manufacturers have their own motor oil standards? I said before the Automotive world does not revolve around Detroit. They are simply not going to market an oil that meets the requirements of a minority of vehicles.

timeburgler said:
Let us be clear, 5w-20 has something to prove, not the other way around. There is a mountain of evidence that shows 5w-20 does nothing to protect an engine better than 5w-30. So why use it? If I want better fuel economy I am going to buy a more fuel efficient car, not screw with 5w-20 oil. I am not going to be hearded like a sheep into purchasing it, especially after reading the posts I see here.

Yes lets be clear. Please show us one piece of this magical mountain of evidence that comes from a non opinion based source? NOTHING has been provided. PLEASE PLEASE post an oil analysis of an engine running 5w20 that shows increased wear.

homac · Apr 15, 2008

You guys are going in circles.

Anyway no sense twisting things up. No one is arguing who created 5w-20. 5w-20 is not used outside North America and the "Ford spec" has nothing to do with that. They drive Ford cars in Europe, in fact the Focus is a popular seller.

roberttroll said:
5W20 is a weight, that is 1 part of the equation. FORD said "we want a thinner oil, but it has to meet a more stringent spec" That is Part 2 of the equation. That spec is outlined in WSS-m2c153-H. FORD was the driving force behind 5w20. Ford Motocraft was the first 5w20 oil. That is not even up for debate. I posted above a link stating that Ford wants it's European dealers to use it.

Here is yet another link that lays it out in clear terms.

http://www.bullittarchive.com/5012.htm

I have to believe if 5w-20 was truly better the Europeans and Japanese would be all over it, however they are not.

roberttroll said:
Thats not a point. It is a false assumption that American Automobiles are the standard by which all others must live up to. Why are you confused that American Engineered Cars represent a MINORITY of the cars on the road in Europe, and that European Manufacturers have their own motor oil standards? I said before the Automotive world does not revolve around Detroit. They are simply not going to market an oil that meets the requirements of a minority of vehicles.

No magical mountain here. 5w-20 provides very slightly better fuel economy, at the expense of slighly more wear over time. Please please post a UOA (used oil analysis) that shows 5w-20 protects better.

roberttroll said:
Yes lets be clear. Please show us one piece of this magical mountain of evidence that comes from a non opinion based source? NOTHING has been provided. PLEASE PLEASE post an oil analysis of an engine running 5w20 that shows increased wear.

timeburgler · Apr 15, 2008

roberttroll said:
5W20 is a weight, that is 1 part of the equation. FORD said "we want a thinner oil, but it has to meet a more stringent spec" That is Part 2 of the equation. That spec is outlined in WSS-m2c153-H. FORD was the driving force behind 5w20. Ford Motocraft was the first 5w20 oil. That is not even up for debate. I posted above a link stating that Ford wants it's European dealers to use it.

I have tied the bows on this one long ago. No one, but no one is going to go and ask for a bottle of WSS-m2c153-H in North America or anywhere else. Just ain't going to happen. You are right about Ford wanting thinner oil. They would do anything they can to avoid development costs in building a better motor and avoid CAFE penalties.

This example Specifications and Approvals grid from Mobil 1 Extended Performance indicates their 5w-20 and 5w-30 meet the same standards:

.

Randoo-N-CJ · Apr 15, 2008

I have to admit, I would have thought this topic would have resulted in a "agree to disagree" finish but it hasn't.
I think this topic has to be one of THE most researched and talked about subjects-bar none- on this forum. I actually have to hand to all who have posted and reposted because I get to get the info that someone else went to a LOT of trouble to research and post.

Kudos to everyone for not really getting flat-out nasty either, like one some posts in these forums.

Nothing to add to the topic, just wanted to say I enjoy the reading and the dialogue.

Please resume

p.s. This would be a great time for our esteemed Jeep representative (that occasionally graces our forums) to jump in here and answer why Jeep recommends one oil over the others. Are you out there Mr. Jeep Rep??

roberttroll · Apr 16, 2008

homac said:
Anyway no sense twisting things up. No one is arguing who created 5w-20. 5w-20 is not used outside North America and the "Ford spec" has nothing to do with that. They drive Ford cars in Europe, in fact the Focus is a popular seller.

You aparently have not read anything that i have posted. I posted documentation that FORD EUROPE is trying to get it's dealers to use 5w20 because they have been using improper grades of motor oil.

Here it is again -
http://books.google.com/books?id=d6...rd+europe+5w-20&source=web&ots=I3hUvJOfGB&sig=4kBBQ79WuxNmgvcvUirY3ejA2_M&hl=en

homac said:
No magical mountain here. 5w-20 provides very slightly better fuel economy, at the expense of slighly more wear over time. Please please post a UOA (used oil analysis) that shows 5w-20 protects better.

I already have posted a link to a blackstone analysis that shows NO SIGNS OF WEAR using 5w20.

Here is Blackstone analysis #1
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/87207-5w20-oil-analysis.html

Here is another
http://www.lxforums.com/wiki/index.php/BlackStone_Oil_Analysis_Reports

And the Society of Automotive Engineers posted their test results using 5w20 and 5w30 in identical vehicles. Their results showed the vehicle running 5w20 had a lower oil temperature than 5w30.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zS..."+test&source=web&ots=O7-DAWp-xk&sig=dEupGEVIsNKM3tj4_ymqGFBhjoU&hl=en#PPA33,M1

Here is 5W20 in Japan from the #1 brand of motor oil in Japan.
http://www.iapdirect.com/product.php?productid=42013

Here is a japanese study of 0w20.
"For concerns in abrasion resistance and oil consumption owing to changed low viscosity, it was proved to effect no problems. (author abst.)"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200003/000020000399A1022691.php

Here is another
"0W-20 engine oil shows a fuel economy improvement of 2.1% compared to conventional 5W-30 gasoline engine oil, and it also shows the good durability performance that might be equal to ILSAC GF-3. (author abst.)"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200103/000020010300A1057796.php

Not a single shread of evidence has been posted that shows 5w20 increases wear. NOTHING.

PLEASE PLEASE post ANYTHING other than a personal opinion that shows 5w20 increases wear.

homac · Apr 16, 2008

I looked at your links (seriously I did). My question is PLEASE PLEASE post anything that shows 5w-20 protects better than 5w-30 all things being equal.

Having read all that has been presented I can still say with confidence "5w-20 provides very slightly better fuel economy at the expense of very slightly more wear."

This would be further accentuated by driving in hot conditions, extended highway driving and towing.

The questions remain unanswered in my mind (cut from a post earlier in the thread):

Why is 5w20 not recommended for use anywhere outside of North America on any vehicle?
Why are manufacturers recommending 5w-20 in North America, however recommend 5w-30 everywhere else?
Why can't you puchase 5w-20 outside North America?
Is there any documentation showing 5w20 protects better on any engine then 5w30? (i.e. an oil analysis, review or anything)
Why is the EPA equivalent in other countries not recommending 5w20 be used?

I have yet to see a single Group IV synthetic 5W-20 UOA that could match the numbers of a similar synthetic 5W-30 in a similar engine.

roberttroll said:
You aparently have not read anything that i have posted. I posted documentation that FORD EUROPE is trying to get it's dealers to use 5w20 because they have been using improper grades of motor oil.

<Big time snip>

PLEASE PLEASE post ANYTHING other than a personal opinion that shows 5w20 increases wear.

roberttroll · Apr 16, 2008

You keep posting the SAME questions that have already been answered. They are unanswered in your mind because you are probably running around with 5w30 in your crankcase trying to convince yourself that by ignoring the manufacturers recommendations you have done the right thing.

homac said:
Having read all that has been presented I can still say with confidence "5w-20 provides very slightly better fuel economy at the expense of very slightly more wear."

This is your 100% unsupported opinion. No link has been provided that shows that. Quite the opposite all of my links show that there is no increased wear using 5w-20.

homac said:

I have yet to see a single Group IV synthetic 5W-20 UOA that could match the numbers of a similar synthetic 5W-30 in a similar engine.

Click to expand...

Nice try on changing the subject. Please provide ANYTHING that supports your wild claims that 5w-20 increases engine wear. Still waiting......

homac · Apr 16, 2008

roberttroll said:
You keep posting the SAME questions that have already been answered. They are unanswered in your mind because you are probably running around with 5w30 in your crankcase trying to convince yourself that by ignoring the manufacturers recommendations you have done the right thing.

Yikes, please keep things constructive, no need for a statement like that. You have no idea what motor oil I am running do you?

I have read all your links and still firmly believe there is no benefit to using 5w-20 except to help North American car companies hit their Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) target. We have just been asking you to provide information that shows 5w-20 protects on par or better which you have not provided.

roberttroll said:
This is your 100% unsupported opinion. No link has been provided that shows that. Quite the opposite all of my links show that there is no increased wear using 5w-20.

Actually they do not. I see no evidence that shows a 5w-20 will protect equally or better, in fact many of the links are from the car companies themselves. I can still say with confidence that 5w-30 would offer slightly better protection all other things being equal.

roberttroll said:
Nice try on changing the subject. Please provide ANYTHING that supports your wild claims that 5w-20 increases engine wear. Still waiting......

No change of subject and no "wild claims" on my side. What would convince me and likely many others is:

Other countries outside North America selling/using 5w-20 (especially if it is better as you claim)
A UOA (Used Oil Analysis) or other comparion between a synthetic 5w-20 vs a synthetic 5w-30 (i.e. Mobil1), then look at the wear numbers all other things being equal. I have yet to see any Group IV synthetic 5W-20 UOA that could match the wear numbers of a similar synthetic 5W-30 in a similar engine.

My point mentioned much earlier in the thread remains the same. All things being equal "5w-20 provides very slightly better fuel economy at the expense of very slightly more wear." So sorry we disagree on this one and appreciate all the info you have been forwarding.

.

timeburgler · Apr 16, 2008

roberttroll said:
You aparently have not read anything that i have posted. I posted documentation that FORD EUROPE is trying to get it's dealers to use 5w20 because they have been using improper grades of motor oil.

Here it is again -
http://books.google.com/books?id=d6...rd+europe+5w-20&source=web&ots=I3hUvJOfGB&sig=4kBBQ79WuxNmgvcvUirY3ejA2_M&hl=en

See no reference to 5w-30 vs 5w-20.

roberttroll said:
I already have posted a link to a blackstone analysis that shows NO SIGNS OF WEAR using 5w20.

Here is Blackstone analysis #1
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/87207-5w20-oil-analysis.html

Here is another
http://www.lxforums.com/wiki/index.php/BlackStone_Oil_Analysis_Reports

No signs of wear? No oil will bring wear down to nil. There is also no comparison to a similar 5w-30 oil.

roberttroll said:
And the Society of Automotive Engineers posted their test results using 5w20 and 5w30 in identical vehicles. Their results showed the vehicle running 5w20 had a lower oil temperature than 5w30.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zS..."+test&source=web&ots=O7-DAWp-xk&sig=dEupGEVIsNKM3tj4_ymqGFBhjoU&hl=en#PPA33,M1

The devil is in the details! Read closely, they are comparing a 5w-20 GF-3 quality oil (5w-20 oil is partially synthetic) with a GF-2 quality 5w-30 conventional dinosaur oil. How about comparing two similar quality oils (i.e. GF-4 5w-20 and GF-4 5w-30 !) What a joke !

roberttroll said:
Here is 5W20 in Japan from the #1 brand of motor oil in Japan.
http://www.iapdirect.com/product.php?productid=42013

Here is a japanese study of 0w20.
"For concerns in abrasion resistance and oil consumption owing to changed low viscosity, it was proved to effect no problems. (author abst.)"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200003/000020000399A1022691.php

"Proved to effect no problems" is hardly the testimonal I was looking for. If 5w-20 is that great why is it not sold and widely used in Japan! :doh:

roberttroll said:
Here is another
"0W-20 engine oil shows a fuel economy improvement of 2.1% compared to conventional 5W-30 gasoline engine oil, and it also shows the good durability performance that might be equal to ILSAC GF-3. (author abst.)"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200103/000020010300A1057796.php

Similar to the above link, why compare a GF-3 synthetic 5w-20 to a conventional dinosaur 5w-30? Who are they trying to kid!

roberttroll said:
Not a single shread of evidence has been posted that shows 5w20 increases wear. NOTHING.

PLEASE PLEASE post ANYTHING other than a personal opinion that shows 5w20 increases wear.

I see zip here to convince me to switch to 5w-20. To an educated eye I would have to say some money is passing hands to promote 5w-20 and fudge the numbers to make things look good.

roberttroll · Apr 16, 2008

timeburgler said:
See no reference to 5w-30 vs 5w-20.

Never said it did - That link is to show that Ford Europe wants people to use it. Page 201. Refutes "not recommended in europe theory"

timeburgler said:
No signs of wear? No oil will bring wear down to nil. There is also no comparison to a similar 5w-30 oil.

No signs of increased wear. Refutes "5W20 increases wear at expense of economy" theory and all those people babbling about Blackstone tests.

timeburgler said:
The devil is in the details! Read closely, they are comparing a 5w-20 GF-3 quality oil (5w-20 oil is partially synthetic) with a GF-2 quality 5w-30 conventional dinosaur oil. How about comparing two similar quality oils (i.e. GF-4 5w-20 and GF-4 5w-30 !) What a joke !

Ahh yes change the rules again. So is your claim now that ONLY SYNTHETIC 5w30 is better than 5w20? Are you admitting that 5w20 is better than dino 5w30? VERRY glad you brought up GF-3 and GF-4.

As you say the devil is in the details, this all brings me back to 5W-20 and Ford. You see if you look more closely at those Mobil 1 specs you will see that 5w30 and 5w20 both meet the same Industry specs and latest standard GF-4. But if you look below that you will see that only 5w20 meets Ford spec WSS- M2C930-A. You will also find that there is no 5w30 that meets that Ford spec. So the question is what is "WSS- M2C930-A"?

http://www.ilma.org/resources/ford_2004_my.pdf

It is this - Ford specifies that in order to meet it's spec it has to pass a double-length ASTM Sequence IIIF test. What is that test?

"The Sequence IIIF test measures oil thickening and piston deposits under high-temperature conditions and provides information about valve train wear. The test simulates high-speed service under relatively high ambient conditions."

http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/IIIFtest/default.htm

5W20 has to meet TWICE the conventional standard. It not only meets the new Sequence IIIG tests used to certify GF-4, but only 5W20 meets DOUBLE the Sequence IIIF test. That is why "thinner" oil does not mean increased wear. 5W20 was tested to a higher standard period. That is the devil in the details.

timeburgler said:
I see zip here to convince me to switch to 5w-20. To an educated eye I would have to say some money is passing hands to promote 5w-20 and fudge the numbers to make things look good.

THE CONSPIRACY LIVES!

P.S. Still waiting for any evidence of increased engine wear from using 5w20 from any credible source.

timeburgler · Apr 16, 2008

roberttroll said:
Never said it did - That link is to show that Ford Europe wants people to use it. Page 201. Refutes "not recommended in europe theory"

Simple response, no one uses or sells the oil there.

roberttroll said:
No signs of increased wear. Refutes "5W20 increases wear at expense of economy" theory and all those people babbling about Blackstone tests.

"No signs of increased wear" in comparison to what?

roberttroll said:
Ahh yes change the rules again. So is your claim now that ONLY SYNTHETIC 5w30 is better than 5w20? Are you admitting that 5w20 is better than dino 5w30? VERRY glad you brought up GF-3 and GF-4.

As you say the devil is in the details, this all brings me back to 5W-20 and Ford. You see if you look more closely at those Mobil 1 specs you will see that 5w30 and 5w20 both meet the same Industry specs and latest standard GF-4. But if you look below that you will see that only 5w20 meets Ford spec WSS- M2C930-A. You will also find that there is no 5w30 that meets that Ford spec. So the question is what is "WSS- M2C930-A"?

Almost every post from the 5w-30 camp has indicated "All other things being equal". Comparing a synthetic 5w-20 to a dinosaur 5w-30 does not add up. Sorry, but we caught them with their hand in the cookie jar.

roberttroll said:
"The Sequence IIIF test measures oil thickening and piston deposits under high-temperature conditions and provides information about valve train wear. The test simulates high-speed service under relatively high ambient conditions."

5W20 has to meet TWICE the conventional standard. It not only meets the new Sequence IIIG tests used to certify GF-4, but only 5W20 meets DOUBLE the Sequence IIIF test. That is why "thinner" oil does not mean increased wear. 5W20 was tested to a higher standard period. That is the devil in the details.

So let us take a GF-4 quality 5w-30 and do the same test. Yes indeed, that devil again.

roberttroll said:
THE CONSPIRACY LIVES!

P.S. Still waiting for any evidence of increased engine wear from using 5w20 from any credible source.

Increase engine wear all things being equal? No doubt in my mind.

roberttroll · Apr 16, 2008

timeburgler said:
Simple response, no one uses or sells the oil there.

Aparently Ford does and wants its European dealers to use it. That link proves that. Blatient denial of evidence.

timeburgler said:
"No signs of increased wear" in comparison to what?

Go back to the original claim - That 5W20 improves mileage at the cost of increased wear. Blackstone test show no signs of above average wear. Go argue with Blackstone on how they conduct their tests. Better yet show us come contrary evidence.

timeburgler said:
Almost every post from the 5w-30 camp has indicated "All other things being equal". Comparing a synthetic 5w-20 to a dinosaur 5w-30 does not add up. Sorry, but we caught them with their hand in the cookie jar.

Great - I am glad you at least acknowledge the fact that oil is more than just an API number. You seemed to deny this just a few posts ago.

Fact is Jeep tells us to put in 5w20. They do not state conventional or synthetic. Probably because they know that there is no conventional 5w20. The claim has always been that "5w20 increases mileage at the cost of increased engine wear".

That has never been backed up with any evidence, and on the contrary has been debuked.

Aparently now you want to change the original premise to "5w20 increases mileage at the cost of increased engine wear in comparison to a full synthetic 5w30". OK great provide us with some EVIDENCE.

timeburgler said:
So let us take a GF-4 quality 5w-30 and do the same test. Yes indeed, that devil again.

If it would have met the Ford standard then that bottle of Mobil 1 5w30 would say so in the specs. Note how Mobil 1 lists both 5w20 and 5w30 as meeting Chrysler MS-6395 spec. But only 5W20 meets the more advanced Ford spec. Poor little devil.

timeburgler said:
Increase engine wear all things being equal? No doubt in my mind.

No doubt in your mind, and no evidence on the table.

timeburgler · Apr 16, 2008

roberttroll said:
Aparently Ford does and wants its European dealers to use it. That link proves that. Blatient denial of evidence.

Nothing to add, nothing to deny. Not used outside North America.

roberttroll said:
Go back to the original claim - That 5W20 improves mileage at the cost of increased wear. Blackstone test show no signs of above average wear. Go argue with Blackstone on how they conduct their tests. Better yet show us come contrary evidence.

Those caveats are where the whole thing falls apart. We are still waiting for a Blackstone (or other UOA) that shows 5w-20 protecting on par or better than 5w-30 all other things being equal. No fudging the numbers or comparing synthetic 5w-20 vs dinosaur 5w-30.

roberttroll said:
Great - I am glad you at least acknowledge the fact that oil is more than just an API number. You seemed to deny this just a few posts ago.

This is not a synthetic vs conventional thread. Compare 5w-20 vs 5w-30, soon as you throw in synthetic vs conventional the shell game and dancing begins to start.
:hammertime:

roberttroll said:
Fact is Jeep tells us to put in 5w20. They do not state conventional or synthetic. Probably because they know that there is no conventional 5w20. The claim has always been that "5w20 increases mileage at the cost of increased engine wear".

That has never been backed up with any evidence, and on the contrary has been debuked.

Jeep also tells drivers outside North America to use 5w-30. That devil again.

roberttroll said:
Aparently now you want to change the original premise to "5w20 increases mileage at the cost of increased engine wear in comparison to a full synthetic 5w30". OK great provide us with some EVIDENCE.

If it would have met the Ford standard then that bottle of Mobil 1 5w30 would say so in the specs. Note how Mobil 1 lists both 5w20 and 5w30 as meeting Chrysler MS-6395 spec. But only 5W20 meets the more advanced Ford spec. Poor little devil.

From what I can see Mobil1 5w-20 and 5w-30 meet the same specification. Now perhaps you have something that shows they tested Mobil1 5w-30 to the "Ford Spec." and it failed. Now that would be something to behold. Poor little devil indeed.

roberttroll said:
No doubt in your mind, and no evidence on the table.

Just like many I cruised the various links and evidence on both sides and made an educated decision. Not sure what else you want me to say.

roberttroll · Apr 17, 2008

timeburgler said:
Just like many I cruised the various links and evidence on both sides and made an educated decision. Not sure what else you want me to say.

I do not want you to say anything - I want you to provide one single pebble from this "mountain of evidence" that backs up your wild claim that "5w20 increases fuel economy at the expense of long term engine wear". One single solitary scientific test or blackstone oil analysis. And you can dance around that till the cows come home.

hunter44102 · Apr 17, 2008

5w20 is fine, but just don't let your engine overheat or your filter become dirty. 5w30 will add more protection - FOR SURE - because the thicker film can push out larger wear particles.

"Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants. "

"If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture. "

From: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518

homac · Apr 17, 2008

Appreciate the links, but these are specifications from the car manufacturers! They are the same ones that want us to use 5w-20 so they can hit their CAFE targets. Impartial organizations classify them the same, the car companies have their own classifications (interesting).....

The fact remains all things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear.

Irregardless of which side of the debate you are on I think we have all gained a fair amount of knowledge about motor oil in general which is a good thing. BTW: I do not like to dance so I will take a raincheck on that one.

roberttroll said:
I do not want you to say anything - I want you to provide one single pebble from this "mountain of evidence" that backs up your wild claim that "5w20 increases fuel economy at the expense of long term engine wear". One single solitary scientific test or blackstone oil analysis. And you can dance around that till the cows come home.

roberttroll · Apr 17, 2008

homac said:
Appreciate the links, but these are specifications from the car manufacturers! They are the same ones that want us to use 5w-20 so they can hit their CAFE targets. Impartial organizations classify them the same, the car companies have their own classifications (interesting).....

The fact remains all things being equal, 5w-20 slightly increases fuel economy in the short term at the expense of slightly increased engine wear.

Irregardless of which side of the debate you are on I think we have all gained a fair amount of knowledge about motor oil in general which is a good thing. BTW: I do not like to dance so I will take a raincheck on that one.

The machine Lube article is an OPINION with no test data. And their opinion is that you use 10w30 or 15w40! The Ford spec completely voids any thinner arguement because it is tested to TWICE the normal standard. So if you really believe them, then use 15w40 in your Pat.

The only fact that remains is that you have yet to provide a single piece of non opinion based evidence to support your claim of "increased engine wear" from using 5w20.

homac · Apr 17, 2008

This thread is packed with evidence such as:

How and why 5w-20 was initially introduced
EPA involvement and CAFE targets/penalties
EPA approval of requests to use 5w-20 to acheive CAFE targets
Documentation linking 5w-20 to short term fuel economy
Use of 5w-20 in North America but not elsewhere in the world
Same engines with different motor oil recommendations (i.e. GEMA World Engine)
SAE, ILSAC, API and ACEA specifications (not from the car companies)
Documentation recommending against the use of 5w-20 in harsh conditions

Now, you do not have to agree with this information, but "opinion based" ??

roberttroll said:
The only fact that remains is that you have yet to provide a single piece of non opinion based evidence to support your claim of "increased engine wear" from using 5w20.

roberttroll · Apr 17, 2008

homac said:
This thread is packed with evidence such as:

How and why 5w-20 was initially introduced

Yes Ford spec oil - For greater fuel economy and top end lubrication.

homac said:

[*]EPA involvement and CAFE targets/penalties

Click to expand...

EPA is involved with all lubricants that go into motor vehicles per the Clean Air Act. I do not see anything about Ford not meeting it's CAFE requirements in the years before they introduced 5w20, or penalties. Please post a link to this.

homac said:

[*]EPA approval of requests to use 5w-20 to acheive CAFE targets

Click to expand...

This letter is not evidence. It has already been shown through my Clean Air Act links that the EPA has regulatory control over all fluids that go into motor vehicles, and a company cannot introduce a fluid that would decrease current EPA standards. The EPA letter does not say "We at Ford are in danger of not meeting our EPA CAFE targets, so we would like to introduce this new oil that will help us meet those." However people are taking it to mean that because they see CAFE and EPA in the same letter. Which is the core of this myth.

homac said:

[*]Documentation linking 5w-20 to short term fuel economy

Click to expand...

All the evidence points to 5w-20 providing slightly better fuel economy. Not debating that. No evidence saying that this is a "short term" effect.

homac said:

[*]Use of 5w-20 in North America but not elsewhere in the world

Click to expand...

So you think Ford Europe wants it's dealers to use 5w20 but does not supply it?
Page 201
http://books.google.com/books?id=d6...rd+europe+5w-20&source=web&ots=I3hUvJOfGB&sig=4kBBQ79WuxNmgvcvUirY3ejA2_M&hl=en

homac said:

[*]Same engines with different motor oil recommendations (i.e. GEMA World Engine)

Click to expand...

Availability - Different standards - Much smaller market share - Cost to certify oils. All the European oils i have found so far are spec'd to run in Diesel and Gasoline engines. Which probably explains why thicker grades are more prevelant.

homac said:

[*]SAE, ILSAC, API and ACEA specifications (not from the car companies)

Click to expand...

What does this prove? There is NO 5w20 sold that does not meet Ford specs.

homac said:

[*]Documentation recommending against the use of 5w-20 in harsh conditions

Click to expand...

Great please provide us with a link.....

homac said:

Now, you do not have to agree with this information, but "opinion based" ??

Click to expand...

No i am simply waiting for documentation that shows that "5w20 provides increased fuel economy at the expense of long term engine wear".

I have no problem with any of your fuel economy arguements. My only problem is with your continued claim of "increased engine wear". None of your list points are evidence of increased engine wear from using 5w20. My Blackstone posts show nothing out of the ordinary, and all the documentation from American Society of Automotive engineers and Ford show the same.

I am simply looking for one single engine test that shows increased engine wear from using 5w20. Please post a link to it.

homac · Apr 17, 2008

roberttroll said:
Yes Ford spec oil - For greater fuel economy and top end lubrication.

Yes "Ford spec" exactly the point we are making. The same company that wants you to use 5w-20 to help them achieve their CAFE targets.

roberttroll said:
EPA is involved with all lubricants that go into motor vehicles per the Clean Air Act. I do not see anything about Ford not meeting it's CAFE requirements in the years before they introduced 5w20, or penalties. Please post a link to this.

Sorry you are incorrect. Here, let me provide some insight:

Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) is the sales weighted average fuel economy. The "measurement" of fuel economy is provided by the EPA. You have not provided any evidence the EPA approves all liquids that go into your Patriot, even if you did that has nothing to do with CAFE. Companies like Ford had to prove 5w-20 would in fact lead to better fuel economy in real life situations. In addition the EPA has no interest in engine wear.

CAFE Overview - National Traffic Safety Adminstration

roberttroll said:
This letter is not evidence. It has already been shown through my Clean Air Act links that the EPA has regulatory control over all fluids that go into motor vehicles, and a company cannot introduce a fluid that would decrease current EPA standards. The EPA letter does not say "We at Ford are in danger of not meeting our EPA CAFE targets, so we would like to introduce this new oil that will help us meet those." However people are taking it to mean that because they see CAFE and EPA in the same letter. Which is the core of this myth.

Again, the EPA provides the measurement of fuel economy used for CAFE purposes. I do not blame anyone for becoming confused, it really is hard to keep ones eye on the ball. This leads us to why 5w-20 is not used anywhere else in the world.

roberttroll said:
All the evidence points to 5w-20 providing slightly better fuel economy. Not debating that. No evidence saying that this is a "short term" effect.

Please see previous links in this thread.

roberttroll said:
So you think Ford Europe wants it's dealers to use 5w20 but does not supply it?
Page 201
http://books.google.com/books?id=d6...rd+europe+5w-20&source=web&ots=I3hUvJOfGB&sig=4kBBQ79WuxNmgvcvUirY3ejA2_M&hl=en

Again, please see previous links/discussion in this thread.

roberttroll said:
Availability - Different standards - Much smaller market share - Cost to certify oils. All the European oils i have found so far are spec'd to run in Diesel and Gasoline engines. Which probably explains why thicker grades are more prevelant.

But if your claim is that 5w-20 protects as well or better is true, would they not start using it eventually? 5w-20 has been out for years, yet they are not adopting it outside North America.

roberttroll said:
What does this prove? There is NO 5w20 sold that does not meet Ford specs.

The world is not going to follow a specification put out by Ford, Ford has to follow the specifications used by the industry.

roberttroll said:
Great please provide us with a link.....

Please see previous posts in this thread.

roberttroll said:
No i am simply waiting for documentation that shows that "5w20 provides increased fuel economy at the expense of long term engine wear".

People kept going on about Blackstone analysis and I posted those. So please post something that shows increased engine wear from using 5w20.

Please post a UOA (used oil analysis) for 5w-20 with a comparison to a similar brand of 5w-30. Then we will have something to review.

More 5W20 info...

roberttroll

homac

timeburgler

Attachments

Randoo-N-CJ

roberttroll

homac

roberttroll

homac

timeburgler

roberttroll

timeburgler

roberttroll

timeburgler

roberttroll

Attachments

hunter44102

homac

roberttroll

homac

roberttroll

homac

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities