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#41 · (Edited)
homac said:
n:

  • Which weights are sold in the UK, that are not sold in North America? (I know 5w20 is sold here, however not anywhere else)
  • "Every motor oil has to be approved by the EPA..." (Any links or info would be great)
The Ford article is helpful, although it also does not indicate anywhere 5w20 protects more than 5w30, in fact 5w30 is not even mentioned in the article. Everything found on the net indicates otherwise.
Click to expand...
From Ford -

"Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life."


How much more clear do you want it? Lack of oil volume from thicker oil = decrease in lubrication and cooling = wear. Since they are talking about 5w20 VS thicker oil, then logically they are talking about any oil thicker than 5w20.

Check out Mobil 1 UK and valvoline Europe. The links are to long to post here.

Note that Mobil has special oils for MB and GM which are not sold in the US.

Valvoline Europe also has special oils for BMW and MB that are not available in the US.

The EPA must approve all new oils because they are considered hazardous waste - http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/usedoil/

How bout this from Wikipedia -
"Many new vehicles are marked to use 5W-20 oil (Honda, Ford, and more recently Toyota) which is not much thinner than a 30 weight oil. Nay-sayers of 20 weight oil's ability to protect engines should note that typically, 30 weight oils shear down into the 20 weight range anyway. Most engine wear is during start-up and warm-up period, where the thinner 20 weight oil's flow is desirable. Overall, lab test results of the wear metals contained in used oil samples show low or lower wear with 20 weight than 30 in applications it is specified for. Some ultra fuel efficient and hybrid vehicles are marked to use 0W-20 oil. For some selective mechanical problems with engines, using a more viscous oil can ameliorate the symptoms, i.e. changing from 5W-20 to 20W-50 may eliminate a knocking noise from the engine but doesn't solve the problem, just "masks" it."

Please show me anything the contradicts what Ford states about loss of oil pressure in a modern engine with tighter clearances do to use of an oil thicker than 5w20.. anything...
 
#42 · (Edited)
I think we are going in circles. Let me clarify:

  • Which weights are sold in the UK, that are not sold in North America? (I know 5w20 is sold here, however not anywhere else)
I posted the link to the Mobil 1 UK website for all to read - still do not see any weights sold in the UK that you cannot puchase in North America. They do not sell 5w20 which is what many are concerned about.
Mobil1 UK Motor Oil

  • "Every motor oil has to be approved by the EPA..." (Any links or info would be great)
I read your link and cannot find 'every' motor oil needs to be approved by the EPA. I know the EPA approved 5w20 for use by North American automakers for CAFE, but do they approve all motor oils as you suggested? (You may be right, just have not seen that anywhere)

The "Ford" article has some value, however 5w-30 is not mentioned. Their quote: "Thinner oils such as 5w20..." is very vague because 5w-30 is also quite thin. In addition there is no data and no direct comparison to 5w-30 which is where the debate of this thread lies.

Do appreciate your posts and not trying to beat up on you. Hoping to find more facts, documentation or anything that supports 5w20 providing more protection than 5w30. Everything keeps pointing the other way.


roberttroll said:
From Ford -

"Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life."


How much more clear do you want it? Lack of oil volume from thicker oil = decrease in lubrication and cooling = wear. Since they are talking about 5w20 VS thicker oil, then logically they are talking about any oil thicker than 5w20.

Check out Mobil 1 UK and valvoline Europe. The links are to long to post here.

Note that Mobil has special oils for MB and GM which are not sold in the US.

Valvoline Europe also has special oils for BMW and MB that are not available in the US.

The EPA must approve all new oils because they are considered hazardous waste - http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/usedoil/

How bout this from Wikipedia -
"Many new vehicles are marked to use 5W-20 oil (Honda, Ford, and more recently Toyota) which is not much thinner than a 30 weight oil. Nay-sayers of 20 weight oil's ability to protect engines should note that typically, 30 weight oils shear down into the 20 weight range anyway. Most engine wear is during start-up and warm-up period, where the thinner 20 weight oil's flow is desirable. Overall, lab test results of the wear metals contained in used oil samples show low or lower wear with 20 weight than 30 in applications it is specified for. Some ultra fuel efficient and hybrid vehicles are marked to use 0W-20 oil. For some selective mechanical problems with engines, using a more viscous oil can ameliorate the symptoms, i.e. changing from 5W-20 to 20W-50 may eliminate a knocking noise from the engine but doesn't solve the problem, just "masks" it."

Please show me anything the contradicts what Ford states about loss of oil pressure in a modern engine with tighter clearances do to use of an oil thicker than 5w20.. anything...
Click to expand...
 
#43 ·
Do not think you are beating up on me at all. Your refusal to accept hard evidence from an automobile manufacturer because you feel "thinner" or "thicker" is vague is quite laudable. Your right, Bob the "Oil Guy" is a much better source of information. Enjoy your Jeep.
 
#45 ·
Too funny.....

Homac has posted some good links. Something is damn fishy about the whole 5w20 thing. :confused:

The Europeans and Japanise make a heck of alot of vehicles, you would think if 5w20 is better they would be using it over there too.

Thinking about those burgers is making me hungry.


CanJeep said:
I wonder if this same discusion was being held at BoB's Burger Pit in the 80's about the virtues of using 5W30 vs 10W30 when 5W30 was first introduced???
Click to expand...
 
#46 ·
I realize this will be an apples vs oranges...

but I want to play devils advocate to even my own post.

I just checked the requirements of a UK car- our Mini Cooper. It recommends 5w30 (can use 0w30 too) with the first oil change at 10K, and thereafter at 15K. (yes, they warranty the darned thing for 5 yrs)
That's what they did on our oil changes and gave me a quart of 5w30 "just in case", when I first bought the car.
British built (BMW motor)...American numbers on the oil for us on this side of the pond. :D
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
I think we've covered all the bases here. There has been a lot of good information brought forth on both sides.

I don't think there is a definitive answer here. I think it all boils down to one question...

Will 5W20 protect at least as well as 5W30?

A - It should flow easier and faster because it is thinner therefore getting to where it needs to go and protecting better.

OR... B - Because it is thinner it affords less protection.

Take your pick.:dead_horse:
 
#48 ·
This post cracked me up a bit.

Do not knock BobistheOilGuy.com There are several Blackstone OUA reports that include real data. That site is the bible when it comes to any oil.


Prior to logging off this thread for good, lets summarize the data:


Mobil 1 Recommendation (What Mobil1/Exxon Suggests we should use)

Mobil1 UK Motor Oil (No 5w20 here, all the other weights are available in North America)

EPA Letter - CAFE (Shows North American car companies are up to something with the EPA when it comes to 5w20 - you decide what that is)

TSB Patriot Europe (5w30 is OK for Europe)

Jeep Patriot Parts Manual (Export and North American Engine/Emissions components are the same)

Machinery Lubrication Article (They hate 5w20)

BobistheOilGuy.com (Pretty big fish when it comes to oil info)

GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance) (The World Engine used in the Patriot was developed outside North America)

American Petroleum Institute (Both 5w30 and 5w20 are approved lubricants, not sure Chrysler can void any warranties but you be the judge because Chrysler wont say)

Society of Automotive Engineers (Same as above)

VS

Car Craft Website (5w20 tested against oils other than 5w30)

Ford Fleet Rental Website (Ford likes 5w20)


And neither for or against that I can see:


EPA Used Oil Website (They created that 5w20 letter and do something with used oil)





roberttroll said:
Do not think you are beating up on me at all. Your refusal to accept hard evidence from an automobile manufacturer because you feel "thinner" or "thicker" is vague is quite laudable. Your right, Bob the "Oil Guy" is a much better source of information. Enjoy your Jeep.
Click to expand...
 
#49 ·
been reading all this and here's one way to boil it down to an answer:

its the same motor here as in europe. in europe they dont use 5w20. if it is perfectly ok to use in their engines (which are exactly the same as ours) then it is ok to use in ours.


also in one of the articles it stated that 30 weight oil will sheer down to 20 weight, then it is should be safe to assume that 20 weight will sheer down too.
 
#53 ·
Jeep changed the oil recommendation from 2006 to 2007 for the 3.7L Liberty from 5w30 to 5w20, without changing the engine or design. (you can download both owners manuals from Jeep's web site to verify).

So in this case I really think it had more to do with CAFE. They probably did testing to make sure it was acceptable, but 5w30 / 5w20 should be interchangeable.
 
#54 ·
Lubrication pressure and flow, as well as geometry are more important in a fluid bearing than viscosity. These are the types of bearings use on gasoline engine crankshafts.

These bearings wear/fail from:
1) Running them dry (on startup or oil pump failure)
2) Dirt preventing lubrication flow
3) Heat (most likely from inadequate flow)
4) Misalignment (we can't help this on a new car)

That's why you prime an engine oil pump when it's been rebuilt or been sitting for a long time without being started. You fill all of the oil passages so that the necessary bearings are lubricated almost immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_bearing

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar797.htm

SAE Abstract Summary: Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3413
(I'm not purchasing the article for sake of discussion.)

http://www.carwashmag.com/pdf/sept_2005/thicker.cfm
From the article in reference to 5W-20 compared to a 10W-30:
The lighter-viscosity-grade oil also improves wear protection by being able to pump faster within an engine. This means that it will reach the necessary lubrication areas quicker than thicker oils and protect during the critical period of startup.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Grades

In other words:

1) The low temperature viscosity of 5W-20 and 5W-30 both cover the issue of cold/warm starts. Both these oils have identical viscosity ratings at low temperatures.

2) The viscosity of 5W-30 is higher than 5W-20 above 100°C, but this is not critical in terms of engine wear as long as there is sufficient pressure and flow. The film thickness in the bearings will never get thin enough for metal to metal contact as long as you have the previous listed conditions, regardless of viscosity.

3) There is no harm from putting 5W-30 in your engine. You may or may not have a measurable (1%) decrease in fuel economy. If this makes you feel better, I'd say go to town!
 
#55 ·
Excellent well supported post.

I think the consensus is 5w20 produces slighly better fuel economy at the expense of slightly less protection.

I agree the difference between 5w20 and 5w30 is small, especially when comparing two synthetic brands such as Mobil1.

The questions raised earlier (like the orginal post) take us on a slightly different path:

  • Why is 5w20 not recommended for use anywhere outside of North America on any vehicle?
  • There are thousands of North American cars exported to other countries why can't you buy 5w20 anywhere outside North America?
  • Is there any documentation showing 5w20 protects better for any engine then 5w30? (i.e. an oil analysis, review or anything)
  • Environmental laws in Europe are more strict, why is their equivalent to the EPA not insisting 5w20 be used?

I think we drove roberttroll away because we kept circling back to these. :(




Brett said:
Lubrication pressure and flow, as well as geometry are more important in a fluid bearing than viscosity. These are the types of bearings use on gasoline engine crankshafts.

These bearings wear/fail from:
1) Running them dry (on startup or oil pump failure)
2) Dirt preventing lubrication flow
3) Heat (most likely from inadequate flow)
4) Misalignment (we can't help this on a new car)

That's why you prime an engine oil pump when it's been rebuilt or been sitting for a long time without being started. You fill all of the oil passages so that the necessary bearings are lubricated almost immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_bearing

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar797.htm

SAE Abstract Summary: Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3413
(I'm not purchasing the article for sake of discussion.)

http://www.carwashmag.com/pdf/sept_2005/thicker.cfm
From the article in reference to 5W-20 compared to a 10W-30:
The lighter-viscosity-grade oil also improves wear protection by being able to pump faster within an engine. This means that it will reach the necessary lubrication areas quicker than thicker oils and protect during the critical period of startup.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Grades

In other words:

1) The low temperature viscosity of 5W-20 and 5W-30 both cover the issue of cold/warm starts. Both these oils have identical viscosity ratings at low temperatures.

2) The viscosity of 5W-30 is higher than 5W-20 above 100°C, but this is not critical in terms of engine wear as long as there is sufficient pressure and flow. The film thickness in the bearings will never get thin enough for metal to metal contact as long as you have the previous listed conditions, regardless of viscosity.

3) There is no harm from putting 5W-30 in your engine. You may or may not have a measurable (1%) decrease in fuel economy. If this makes you feel better, I'd say go to town!
Click to expand...
 
#56 ·
homac said:
Excellent well supported post.

I think the consensus is 5w20 produces slighly better fuel economy at the expense of slightly less protection(
Click to expand...
I don't think 5w-20 will have less protection for normal, average driving conditions...there is no magic bullet (or formula). But again I pose the situation of +100 F august day, fully loaded mountain drive without an oilcooler (not exceeding the max load capacity, but for sure a higher demand on the motor), the oil is at a much higher temperature than normal, so viscosity is lower than normal. Which oil would you rather have at this point?

Maybe your vehicle never reaches these temps, maybe it does...do you know for sure that you won't encounter harsh conditions 1500 miles after changing your oil?

Given that a too high viscosity oil might sacrifice top end lubrication due to reduced flow, at what point is 5W-30 more damaging to the engine than 5w-20? At start up when the oil is cold? ...but both oils have identical cold flow performance (by definition of the 5 in their rating).

I'd like to hear how 5w-30 could have a negative effect in lubrication over 5w-20, other than the acknowledged decrease in millage. I'm all ears.
 
#57 · (Edited)
homac said:
Excellent well supported post.

I think the consensus is 5w20 produces slighly better fuel economy at the expense of slightly less protection.

I agree the difference between 5w20 and 5w30 is small, especially when comparing two synthetic brands such as Mobil1.

The questions raised earlier (like the orginal post) take us on a slightly different path:

  • Why is 5w20 not recommended for use anywhere outside of North America on any vehicle?
  • There are thousands of North American cars exported to other countries why can't you buy 5w20 anywhere outside North America?
  • Is there any documentation showing 5w20 protects better for any engine then 5w30? (i.e. an oil analysis, review or anything)
  • Environmental laws in Europe are more strict, why is their equivalent to the EPA not insisting 5w20 be used?

I think we drove roberttroll away because we kept circling back to these. :(
Click to expand...
The fact that 5w20 is harder (redline UK sells it) to find outside NA , means nothing to me. There are oils in Europe that are not available in NA. Mobil LL Special G 5W-30 for GM vehicles, and Mobil SHC Formula MB 5W-30 for Mercedes Benz are only in Europe. Why would GM and MB require a special oil in Europe that is not available in NA? Heck i cannot find 10w30 on the Mobil1 UK web site. Why would 10w30 not be available? And i can find no regular 5w30, just the "special" GM blend.

Check out the specs for 5w30 in the uk:

Typical Properties

Mobil LL Special G 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 69.1
cSt @ 100º C 11.8
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.4
Phosphorous, wt%, ASTM D4951 0.09
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 226
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.86
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -36

Now check out 5w30 in NA

Typical Properties

Mobil 1 5W-30
SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 64.8
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 169
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 3.09
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 5949 -48
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 230
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.80

They dont match - I am betting that the difference lies solely with standards set by the ACEA (European Auto manufacturers association).

I accept the fact that a modern engine with tighter tolerances requires something a little thinner in order to sufficiently lubricate the top end. Loss of lubrication = more wear.

I also accept the fact that just because a different oil is recommended outside of NA, that does not necessate a CAFE conspiracy theory. Europe seems to have a different standard, and i bet it costs $$$ to certify oils. So a US car company tells it's overseas customers to go with the next best most available thing 5w30. Which coincidentally does not match the US spec for 5w30.

If environmental lawn in Europe are MORE strict then how come none of their Diesels meet California Emissions?

No you didnt drive me away - the questions you keep asking i feel have been answered quite sufficiently. This horse has long since gone to the glue factory. You either accept what the manufacturer tells you or you dont.
 
#58 ·
roberttroll said:
Check out the specs for 5w30 in the uk:

Typical Properties

Mobil LL Special G 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 69.1
cSt @ 100º C 11.8
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.4
Phosphorous, wt%, ASTM D4951 0.09
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 226
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.86
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -36

Now check out 5w30 in NA

Typical Properties

Mobil 1 5W-30
SAE Grade 5W-30
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40º C 64.8
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 169
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.0
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 3.09
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 5949 -48
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 230
Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.80

They dont match - I am betting that the difference lies solely with standards set by the ACEA (European Auto manufacturers association).

I accept the fact that a modern engine with tighter tolerances requires something a little thinner in order to sufficiently lubricate the top end. Loss of lubrication = more wear.
Click to expand...
So in Europe, they are knowingly recommending an oil that gives more wear?

The info you provided, in which I conveniently bold and italicized the important points, shows that Euro 5w-30 is indeed different than US 5w-30...it is even higher viscosity.

So, what your saying is the Europeans using the recommended 5w-30 oil will be getting super worn out engines prematurely, the people in the US using 5w-30 will be getting somewhat worn out engines, and the people who use 5w-20 will be getting super long lasting engines due to superior lubrication?

Again, I ask, at what point in the engines operation is 5w-30 going to give less lubrication than 5w-20...give me even a hypothetical example ...
 
#59 · (Edited)
I think we should set up a POLL as to what the few reasons of this TSB could be motivated. Then when we find out, the individuals on the correct ballot will receive an AWARD from the one who are not. Sound fair??????????? Ones who cannot make up their mind will simply have to observe.(and keep quiet !).

I'll start off a list to help separate the committed from the heckling.



The reason Jeep changed oil spec's in Europe was that;


A) Powertrain use is more demanding in Europe

B) Fuel efficiency standards (are are not as a concern) in Europe

C) Oil specifications & availability for ASE/5w-20 is either low or the standard may be unequal.



BTW, I would like a sweatshirt with the JEEPPATRIOT.COM embroidered on the left breast.

hvac59

PS. anyone who would like to modify or add to the reasons, please feel free and let's have a little fun.
 
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