More 5W20 info...

homac · Mar 24, 2008

I think you meant to say "higher viscosity oils will protect parts better......"

In any case take a look at the oil analysis results posted by users on this site and draw your own conclusions. I was in the same boat as you until recently so I do not blame you for being skeptical.

Bob is The Oil Guy

DC did not design the engine, it was GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance). The engine block itself came more from Hyundai then from DC. The engine was not designed with 5w-20 oil in mind.

GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance)

Again, I was in the same boat as many, however there is just too much evidence out there and no proof to suggest otherwise. Until then sticking with 5w-30.

roberttroll said:
"Again, please show me the evidence that lower viscosity oils do not give better millage, and that higher viscosity oils will not protect parts better than a lower viscosity oil from wearing under stresses (thermal stress and mechanical forces), and then I might change my view."

5w20 gives the mileage that DC designed that engine to give. Show me where DC designed that engine to run on 5w30, and changed it to 5w20 because of CAFE.

UPKEV · Mar 24, 2008

ExxonMobil's response to my question as to why their site recommends 5w30 when the manufacturer recommends 5w20.

"The Mobil website's recommendations are made by utilizing the
Automotive Checkcart catalog, it may be incorrect when it comes to
special and unique requirements or manufacturer's. This is why we state
always check your manufacturer's recommendations in the owner's manual.
If your jeep manufacturer recommends the 5W20 viscosity, stay with it.
Their is no less protection using the Mobil1 5W20 compared to
conventional 5W30 viscosity."

roberttroll · Mar 24, 2008

First off the European engine is different, slightly. You can check out the specs on the UK jeep web site and compare them to the US version. In the UK the 2.4l is rated at 168hp/162 lb ft torque. The us version is listed at 172hp/165lb ft torque. Straight from mother Jeep with no conversion. The weight is also different by about 4lbs. Do not know if that matters at all.

No i do not dispute what you are saying, i think what you are saying might apply to pre 2001 vehicles. 5w20 came out around 2001. There were many engines in 2000 with owners manuals that stated "use 5w30", and in 2001 the manuals stated "use 5w20". In that case, then maybee the manufacturer suggested changing for economy reasons. I say maybee because the reported increase in mileage is 1%. I think this is the core of the "5w20 conspiracy theory". There was no change in CAFÉ requirements in 2000-2001, and the fleet average did not change, so why did this magical oil suddenly appear?

Honda switched in 2001, and I think it is pretty well accepted that Honda makes one hell of a long lasting engine and I have yet to hear of a 2001 honda with a bad engine.

The GEMA engine was designed and built after the advent of 5w20. The goal of the platform was efficiency, so they designed the power train with that in mind. That engine was spec'ed, designed, built, and tested by professional automotive engineers who said use 5w20. They printed it in the owner’s manual, and on the dipstick. A few guys on a bulletin board said "5w20 is for CAFE, I know better than any XYZ automotive engineer". And I do not mean specifically on this board. The whole 5w20 thing is mentioned on many boards with the common theme being "the govt did it".

I know that a manufacturer is not going to possibly recommend something substandard to gain .2 mpg, especially when there was no requirement to do so. What makes more sense is the automotive companies asked the oil companies for a new grade of oil that flows better in modern engines with tighter fitting parts.

I could probably make a case for leaded gasoline using the same logic. It burns better, it has higher octane, and it lubricates "soft" valve seats. Does not matter though because a modern engine has no need for it.

So whatever you want to put in your engine is fine, i really do not care. But i will bet anyone that my quart of Mobil1 5w20 is light years ahead of any conventional 5w30 in terms of protecting my engine.

homac · Mar 24, 2008

The engine and emissions are the same, the rating of hp/torque are not a result of differences in the engine as strange as that may sound. I know it may take a while, but review the PDF posted earlier to confirm.

I am on the same page as you when it comes to a "Government Conspiracy". They simply made a decision towards fuel economy in the short term vs long term. In addition the slight amount of extra engine wear you would sustain by using 5w-20 is small, however does exist.

Also agree with you 100% when a comparison is made between synthetic vs dino oil, however that is a completely different topic.

Comparing synthetic 5w20 (they all are - or at least a blend) and synthetic 5w30 is perhaps where we disagree. That being said a good discussion is what these boards are all about !)

roberttroll said:
First off the European engine is different, slightly. You can check out the specs on the UK jeep web site and compare them to the US version. In the UK the 2.4l is rated at 168hp/162 lb ft torque. The us version is listed at 172hp/165lb ft torque. Straight from mother Jeep with no conversion. The weight is also different by about 4lbs. Do not know if that matters at all.

No i do not dispute what you are saying, i think what you are saying might apply to pre 2001 vehicles. 5w20 came out around 2001. There were many engines in 2000 with owners manuals that stated "use 5w30", and in 2001 the manuals stated "use 5w20". In that case, then maybee the manufacturer suggested changing for economy reasons. I say maybee because the reported increase in mileage is 1%. I think this is the core of the "5w20 conspiracy theory". There was no change in CAFÉ requirements in 2000-2001, and the fleet average did not change, so why did this magical oil suddenly appear?

Honda switched in 2001, and I think it is pretty well accepted that Honda makes one hell of a long lasting engine and I have yet to hear of a 2001 honda with a bad engine.

The GEMA engine was designed and built after the advent of 5w20. The goal of the platform was efficiency, so they designed the power train with that in mind. That engine was spec'ed, designed, built, and tested by professional automotive engineers who said use 5w20. They printed it in the owner’s manual, and on the dipstick. A few guys on a bulletin board said "5w20 is for CAFE, I know better than any XYZ automotive engineer". And I do not mean specifically on this board. The whole 5w20 thing is mentioned on many boards with the common theme being "the govt did it".

I know that a manufacturer is not going to possibly recommend something substandard to gain .2 mpg, especially when there was no requirement to do so. What makes more sense is the automotive companies asked the oil companies for a new grade of oil that flows better in modern engines with tighter fitting parts.

I could probably make a case for leaded gasoline using the same logic. It burns better, it has higher octane, and it lubricates "soft" valve seats. Does not matter though because a modern engine has no need for it.

So whatever you want to put in your engine is fine, i really do not care. But i will bet anyone that my quart of Mobil1 5w20 is light years ahead of any conventional 5w30 in terms of protecting my engine.

roberttroll · Mar 24, 2008

homac said:
I am on the same page as you when it comes to a "Government Conspiracy". They simply made a decision towards fuel economy in the short term vs long term. In addition the slight amount of extra engine wear you would sustain by using 5w-20 is small, however does exist.

The engine has a different HP/TQ rating which means that it is performing differently. If it performs different, even if the engine is the same, then it can have different requirements.

The evidence people are talking about was done on something other than the engine in our Jeeps. Probably using something that was designed to run 5 or 10w30. Circumstantial evidence at BEST. Most likely applies to a Ford engine designed in the early 90's. Not something that would hold up to any court room or scientific study, nor is even remotely related to the GEMA engine.

Then people are jumping to the conclusion that Jeep Europe, not being part of the great CAFE consipracy, issued that bulletin to enlighten Europeans of the great North American Hoax. Could there be a logical reason?

Truth is unless tests are done on this engine, using different oils, nobody can claim X product is better than what DC recommends. And nobody has addressed why Jeep Europe issued that. One poster claims that 5w20 is not available in Europe. Could it be possible that people were using some other weight oil that was really unsuitable for oil chances because 5w20 is not as available? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

It basically comes down to either you beleive Jeep designed that engine to run 5w20, or "bob the oil guy" who claims that 5w20 was created to satisfy CAFE. Seems to me one is a more reliable source especially when you consider there was no CAFE mandate to increase fleet MPG when the stuff came out. It might increase MPG in some old engines, maybee at the increased risk of long term wear, but this engine was designed for it. Dont you think that the engineers knew this and compensated?

If i am wrong, then i might have some slight increased wear and tear. If you are wrong then you are taking the chance that the thicker oil might not get where it needs to be, and possibly burning out oil pumps.

Ollie18 · Mar 24, 2008

I just put Mobil1 5W20 in this weekend fwiiw

homac · Mar 24, 2008

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I am going by the documentation provided earlier in the thread (that is what sold me!). We can let those who wish to learn more, read and decide for themselves. Hate to provide more questions than answers but......

Why is 5w20 not recommended for use anywhere outside of North America on any vehicle?
There are thousands of North American cars exported to other countries why can't you buy 5w20 anywhere outside North America?
Is there any documentation showing 5w20 protects better for any engine then 5w30? (i.e. an oil analysis, review or anything)
Environmental laws in Europe are more strict, why is their equivalent to the EPA not insisting 5w20 be used?

Sorry for all the questions, but someone has to ask them, until then 5w30.

roberttroll said:
The engine has a different HP/TQ rating which means that it is performing differently. If it performs different, even if the engine is the same, then it can have different requirements.

The evidence people are talking about was done on something other than the engine in our Jeeps. Probably using something that was designed to run 5 or 10w30. Circumstantial evidence at BEST. Most likely applies to a Ford engine designed in the early 90's. Not something that would hold up to any court room or scientific study, nor is even remotely related to the GEMA engine.

Then people are jumping to the conclusion that Jeep Europe, not being part of the great CAFE consipracy, issued that bulletin to enlighten Europeans of the great North American Hoax. Could there be a logical reason?

Truth is unless tests are done on this engine, using different oils, nobody can claim X product is better than what DC recommends. And nobody has addressed why Jeep Europe issued that. One poster claims that 5w20 is not available in Europe. Could it be possible that people were using some other weight oil that was really unsuitable for oil chances because 5w20 is not as available? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

It basically comes down to either you beleive Jeep designed that engine to run 5w20, or "bob the oil guy" who claims that 5w20 was created to satisfy CAFE. Seems to me one is a more reliable source especially when you consider there was no CAFE mandate to increase fleet MPG when the stuff came out. It might increase MPG in some old engines, maybee at the increased risk of long term wear, but this engine was designed for it. Dont you think that the engineers knew this and compensated?

If i am wrong, then i might have some slight increased wear and tear. If you are wrong then you are taking the chance that the thicker oil might not get where it needs to be, and possibly burning out oil pumps.

roberttroll · Mar 24, 2008

I have no idea - but do not assume that it has to do with anything other than availability.

Check out those dyno results. Same engine, three different oils. More HP with 5w20. Better flow, less friction, better protection.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/oil_tech/dyno_results.html

Reddart · Mar 24, 2008

roberttroll said:
Better flow, less friction, better protection.

2 more average HP over the highest viscosity oil (for a +500hp engine)? I don't know how you can come to this conclusion from that article? Again, a flow gain (which it probably does flow better) doesn't necessarily correlate to better protection.

JimCno · Mar 25, 2008

Both sides are putting up very good arguments. I'm guessing it is all splitting hairs.

1% better mileage, 1% better horse power, 1% better protection....

Not 1% better gas mileage and 30% more wear.

But who knows... Tell you what, the first person to have serious engine wear problems, let us know what oil you've been using.:smiley_thumbs_up:

homac · Mar 25, 2008

Thank-you for posting, but it does not mention 5w-30.

It says thinner oil "can still deliver protection" and "delivers sufficient protection" however nothing about the same or better protection. Also, no actual wear numbers like what is found on many other sites.

roberttroll said:
I have no idea - but do not assume that it has to do with anything other than availability.

Check out those dyno results. Same engine, three different oils. More HP with 5w20. Better flow, less friction, better protection.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/oil_tech/dyno_results.html

roberttroll · Mar 25, 2008

homac said:
Thank-you for posting, but it does not mention 5w-30.

It says thinner oil "can still deliver protection" and "delivers sufficient protection" however nothing about the same or better protection. Also, no actual wear numbers like what is found on many other sites.

The point of that was to show that it does not break down in a high performance engine under stress.

OK here is the straight dope from Ford - They came up with the 5w20 spec.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/FFH/Rental05_23_06.asp

Why 5W20 Oil?
Some customers are reluctant to follow Ford's recommendation to use 5W-20 oil in their engines based on the incorrect assumption that Ford and other Auto Manufacturers only recommend 5W-20 oil in order to increase fuel economy. Using 5W-20 oil can increase fuel economy by about 6/10ths of a percent compared to 5W-30 and more if you are currently using a higher viscosity oil. This equates to an additional savings of 125 million gallons per year when used in all applicable Ford vehicles. Since its introduction in the 2001 MY, 5W-20 oils have saved up to 640 million gallons of gasoline in the U.S. or an equivalent 5.6 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions.

5W-20 oil is a thinner oil with lighter viscosity that creates less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain. Additionally, the oil pump can pump thinner oil more easily, improving oil circulation. Any increase in fuel economy may not be noticed by the average motorist. Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life.

The lighter viscosity of 5W-20 oil flows faster at start-up compared to higher viscosity oils, which helps reduce engine wear in critical areas by lubricating parts faster. Valvetrain components at the top of the engine require immediate lubrication at start-up.

Oil additives are not recommended as noted in the owners manual. The American Petroleum Institute (API) certifies that oils such as Motorcraft 5W-20 already contain the necessary additives for friction, detergent, etc... The addition of additives may interfere and react with the additives already present in the certified oil.

homac · Mar 25, 2008

Very good information. Good post.

In my mind I still am not sold because they are saying "thinner oil such as 5W-20" with no mention of 5w30. (5w30 is quite thin too)

When they do an oil analysis (can be done for roughly $20) you can see how much metal particles are in the oil and hence the wear. That kind of data speaks volumes.

I am going to do some digging too. It would be nice to see something that shows some data or measurements. Or even some answers to the questions posed earlier. (not really your job though - I have been looking but cannot find anything)

roberttroll said:
The point of that was to show that it does not break down in a high performance engine under stress.

OK here is the straight dope from Ford - They came up with the 5w20 spec.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/FFH/Rental05_23_06.asp

Why 5W20 Oil?
Some customers are reluctant to follow Ford's recommendation to use 5W-20 oil in their engines based on the incorrect assumption that Ford and other Auto Manufacturers only recommend 5W-20 oil in order to increase fuel economy. Using 5W-20 oil can increase fuel economy by about 6/10ths of a percent compared to 5W-30 and more if you are currently using a higher viscosity oil. This equates to an additional savings of 125 million gallons per year when used in all applicable Ford vehicles. Since its introduction in the 2001 MY, 5W-20 oils have saved up to 640 million gallons of gasoline in the U.S. or an equivalent 5.6 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions.

5W-20 oil is a thinner oil with lighter viscosity that creates less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain. Additionally, the oil pump can pump thinner oil more easily, improving oil circulation. Any increase in fuel economy may not be noticed by the average motorist. Machined internal engine parts are more precise than the parts of 20 years ago. This means that clearances between moving parts are smaller and more exact. Thinner oil such as 5W-20 can flow more freely through the engine while still filling the spaces. Thicker oil is harder to push through the spaces between the parts. This causes the oil pump to work harder, which in turn increases oil pressure while simultaneously decreasing oil volume. A lack of oil volume results in a decrease of lubrication and cooling, which may decrease engine part life.

The lighter viscosity of 5W-20 oil flows faster at start-up compared to higher viscosity oils, which helps reduce engine wear in critical areas by lubricating parts faster. Valvetrain components at the top of the engine require immediate lubrication at start-up.

Oil additives are not recommended as noted in the owners manual. The American Petroleum Institute (API) certifies that oils such as Motorcraft 5W-20 already contain the necessary additives for friction, detergent, etc... The addition of additives may interfere and react with the additives already present in the certified oil.

Reddart · Mar 25, 2008

JimCno said:
Both sides are putting up very good arguments. I'm guessing it is all splitting hairs.

1% better mileage, 1% better horse power, 1% better protection....

Not 1% better gas mileage and 30% more wear.

But who knows... Tell you what, the first person to have serious engine wear problems, let us know what oil you've been using.:smiley_thumbs_up:

Uh, no. 0.4% better horsepower (compared to 20W-50!) and no mention either way about protection.

The only thing mentioned up till now about protection is the Ford reference above...again, which does not directly call out 5W-30 (other than mentioning the .6 % increase in millage).

Reddart · Mar 25, 2008

homac said:
When they do an oil analysis (can be done for roughly $20) you can see how much metal particles are in the oil and hence the wear. That kind of data speaks volumes.

This is a good point...perhaps I'll need to do my own experiment, alternating oil types and taking samples.

UPKEV · Mar 25, 2008

Response from Chrysler regarding if 5w30 would void the warrnaty.

"Thank you for contacting the Chrysler Customer Assistance Center
regarding your 2008 Jeep Patriot.

In response to your email regarding the Lifetime Warranty, we would like
to inform you that using the 5w30 oil in your vehicle may void the
Lifetime Warranty on your vehicle.

However, for more information on using the 5w30 oil, we suggest you to
contact your local authorized Jeep dealer since they are the best
resource for such information."

As usual the response is clear as mud.

roberttroll · Mar 25, 2008

It means if you did your own maintenance and your engine blows up, and they suspect you did something stupid, they are going to test your oil. If it does not meet the 5w20 spec you are screwed.

However, if they have records from a local Jeep dealer, and that dealer had done all the service using something other than 5w20, then they will honor it because it is the dealers liability. Basically it is not your fault if an authorised dealer puts something into your Jeep that is not recommended by the factory. You just went in for an oil change and the assumption (and weight of the law) is that a dealer knows what the factory recommends.

roberttroll · Mar 25, 2008

I did some checking too. 5W20 is unavailable in Europe. At least not through normal means. Matter of fact if you look at the Mobil 1 web site in the UK you will find that they sell a whole slew of different oils that are not found in the US. So it is really a case of different spec oils are sold overseas, and that TSB from Jeep UK is simply telling people to use the next best available thing which is 5w30.

Also found out that every motor oil sold in the US must go through EPA approval process. That is all that letter means.

Bob the oil guy and the machine lube mean nothing unless the test is using data from a GEMA engine.

The only real evidence so far comes from Ford and your owners manual. Doesn't that Ford letter explain how it protects better in a modern engine with tighter clearances?

Randoo-N-CJ · Mar 25, 2008

I guess I don't see the arguement with this. I just checked my manual and it states that 5W20 is the oil they recommend. Period. (yes, API approved too)

There may be all kinds of different testing done (from BillyBob to racing engines, etc) but it all boils down to being safe for warranties sake. If they could prove you put in something other than what they said is approved, you might be in jeapardy of having to pay for work out-of-pocket. I can't afford that so (at least speaking for me) I'll stay with 5W20 until Jeep tells me otherwise.

You braver individuals who want to change viscosity or weight of your oils, feel free.

Gotta love choices, don't ya?:smiley_thumbs_up:

jsster · Mar 25, 2008

If it has a life time power train warranty then I'd use the recommended oil.

More 5W20 info...

homac

UPKEV

roberttroll

homac

roberttroll

Ollie18

homac

roberttroll

Reddart

JimCno

homac

roberttroll

homac

Reddart

Reddart

UPKEV

roberttroll

roberttroll

Randoo-N-CJ

jsster

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