Partriot or Liberty: On the Fence

k2qo · Mar 14, 2008

Hi Gang,

After driving both the 08 Pat and 08 Liberty last week, I am having trouble deciding between the two. Maybe some answers will help. Maybe not.

First, I know exactly how much extra the Lib will cost per year in gas. But it is bigger inside for hauling my ham radio junk and it tows a lot more. The latter is not too significant, but a big load of mulch on the garden trailer or a ton of stone a few times per year is a bit of weight. I found both vehichles very nice to drive. Both were smooth and quiet. With the current rebates, a base Lib with E pkg is only a few hundred dollars more than the equivalently equipped Pat. The lib would be 4 spd auto and the Pat CVT FD1. I also wonder how each will be in 7 years with 100K miles on the clock.

OK, questions.

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

That's all for now!

Thanks,
Mark

Wheezy · Mar 14, 2008

I can at least answer #5 for you since I found that out from experience this winter...

The system cannot, under any circumstances, be disabled. It'll chime each time you start the Jeep, and sometimes it'll even magically register readings for tires that don't have the sensors installed on them. After that, the light on the dash blinks around every 10 minutes, and it also chimes once every 10 minutes. It's not annoying to the point that you'd want to drive it into a wall, but it's a bit of a nuisance that you can't somehow disable the system altogether.

That being said, after owning a Patriot for almost a year, I'd probably get a Liberty instead. The Patriot is too small (overall, general storage-wise), doesn't have the greatest ground clearance for an "SUV", and I'm really not a fan of the CVT. I know the CVT is quite remarkable in the sense that it's always at peak horsepower level, but if that's the case, the Patriot could definitely benefit from at least 30+ more horsepower.

Kong · Mar 14, 2008

k2qo said:
Hi Gang,

After driving both the 08 Pat and 08 Liberty last week, I am having trouble deciding between the two. Maybe some answers will help. Maybe not.

First, I know exactly how much extra the Lib will cost per year in gas. But it is bigger inside for hauling my ham radio junk and it tows a lot more. The latter is not too significant, but a big load of mulch on the garden trailer or a ton of stone a few times per year is a bit of weight. I found both vehichles very nice to drive. Both were smooth and quiet. With the current rebates, a base Lib with E pkg is only a few hundred dollars more than the equivalently equipped Pat. The lib would be 4 spd auto and the Pat CVT FD1. I also wonder how each will be in 7 years with 100K miles on the clock.

OK, questions.

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

That's all for now!

Thanks,
Mark

We had to deal with some of your questions before we bought the Patriot. We bought a Limited Trail Rated loaded, so the cost was not different between the Liberty and Patriot.

1. We live at 7800' in the Rockies SW Colorado. The Patriot has performed way beyond what we expected. Just doesn't haul butt off the line, but passes fine.

2. We planned to buy a Liberty at first, but couldn't stand the seat. both of our backs hurt and my wife's back never bothers her. There was no way we could long distance travel with that seat. Also the head rest made her head tip forward. Really junky set up. I don't know who tested this seat. Also gives you the leg twist thing that the old Cherokee caused. That used to kill us on trips greater than 2 hours.

Also the seat was narrow and the edges tipped up firmly. really hard on the rear end. (the old cherokee did this also)

We had 5 different Cherokees and they never solved the seat comfort problem.

3. Don't know. The 110volt outlet is cool for low amp use.

4. Don't know but getting the headliner down doesn't seem difficult. Ask your dealer.

5. We run different tires in the winter, but didn't change out the wheels. Ran Michelin IceX and they surpassed everything we hoped for. Took road trip with about 350 miles in high altitude storm and it handled extremely well.

"A ton of stone"?? Not in the back of the Pat. Check you tow ratings and hitch ratings. You will need to make a few trips.

We almost didn't drive the Patriot because we thought it was too small, but we were very suprised at the comfort when we sat in it and drove it. I'm a BIG guy and no problems at all. We have the leather seats and they are great. Did a 600 mile trip.... came home for one day... then did a 3000 mile trip and drove 800+ miles on one leg some 15 hours. Amazingly comfortable vehicle.

Hope that helps some.

Good luck

Terasec · Mar 14, 2008

Speaking for myself

k2qo said:
Hi Gang,

After driving both the 08 Pat and 08 Liberty last week, I am having trouble deciding between the two. Maybe some answers will help. Maybe not.

First, I know exactly how much extra the Lib will cost per year in gas. But it is bigger inside for hauling my ham radio junk and it tows a lot more. The latter is not too significant, but a big load of mulch on the garden trailer or a ton of stone a few times per year is a bit of weight. I found both vehichles very nice to drive. Both were smooth and quiet. With the current rebates, a base Lib with E pkg is only a few hundred dollars more than the equivalently equipped Pat. The lib would be 4 spd auto and the Pat CVT FD1. I also wonder how each will be in 7 years with 100K miles on the clock.

OK, questions.

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

That's all for now!

Thanks,
Mark

Always difficult to make suggestions to thers,
Can only tell you my opinion and take it as you please

First I have the FDII
When it comes to gearing and MPG way different than others FDI
I also drive and have used my sisters liberty on 1,000 mile trips from NYC to toronto
1) CVT
mine does not apply as my FDII does more like 2500-3000 at 60-65
FDI has different ratio
Smooth as heck though

2)I am slim guy 5'9 about 160 lbs
Liberty didnt bother me on 9 hr drives
both were comfy rides,
only difference Pat was new, liberty had 60K miles on it

3) Have run wires for CB's
same circumstances on both vehicles,
might have a little more room for placement on Pat,
While both are similar size vehicles,
Liberty with bigger engine does seem to have a more cramped dash
Would recomend getting the 140amp Alternator over the basic

4)-5) out of my league

In my opinion
For a 4x4 FDII,
Liberty is a better buy,
Same price as they give larger rebates on liberty
Bigger engine on Liberty
and very similar MPG

for 4x2 and FDI
if MPG is a concern,
pat is a better buy,
with its starting price
and great MPG

In my op

quasimodem51 · Mar 14, 2008

Terasec said:
Always difficult to make suggestions to thers,
Can only tell you my opinion and take it as you please

First I have the FDII
When it comes to gearing and MPG way different than others FDI
I also drive and have used my sisters liberty on 1,000 mile trips from NYC to toronto
1) CVT
mine does not apply as my FDII does more like 2500-3000 at 60-65
FDI has different ratio
Smooth as heck though

2)I am slim guy 5'9 about 160 lbs
Liberty didnt bother me on 9 hr drives
both were comfy rides,
only difference Pat was new, liberty had 60K miles on it

3) Have run wires for CB's
same circumstances on both vehicles,
might have a little more room for placement on Pat,
While both are similar size vehicles,
Liberty with bigger engine does seem to have a more cramped dash
Would recomend getting the 140amp Alternator over the basic

4)-5) out of my league

In my opinion
For a 4x4 FDII,
Liberty is a better buy,
Same price as they give larger rebates on liberty
Bigger engine on Liberty
and very similar MPG

for 4x2 and FDI
if MPG is a concern,
pat is a better buy,
with its starting price
and great MPG

In my op

My feelings exactly

MrSensible · Mar 14, 2008

The tire pressure thing is just a matter of getting the sensors in your new rims. I believe but I am not 100% sure that the sensor is in the tire stem, not the rim itself. It should be a simple matter of just getting the stem replaced. Any tire shop should be able to get them. Maybe you can even get the dealer to throw them in.

Hills and the CVT ratio shuould not be a problem and you shouldn't see wide variations. I have a 5spd so I don't have experience with it, but I can tell you that in the 5spd, under highway conditions I have never had an issue with power on hills. I see the same rpms that you saw at 60mph in 5th gear.

eighteenwheeler · Mar 14, 2008

I may not have all the answers you were looking for, but I had my heart set on the liberty, but ended up getting a loaded FDII pat.

The CVT is always changing and you don't really feel it. Its actually a replacement for an F150. I use a 4x8" trailer to haul around construction materials without any trouble. Not close to the power of the F150 but neither is the lib!

I chose the pat largely because the front of the lib was too small. I'm a tall guy, and just don't fit in the small cockpit of the liberty. The patriots was much better. it has more room in the front AND the back.

The Patriots frequently report getting better than rated gas mileage. my cousin, who builds jeep drivetrains for magna powertrain, has a new liberty and says he gets much lower gas mileage than that which is rated.

Possibly the biggest winner for the patriot is the AWD system (non-4WD lock). The performance on-road is quite impressive. The liberty is more of an SUV. The pat is an extreme & Capable car that can tow and go offroad. From a performance standpoint, you can tell!

Towing between the two really isn't as different as may think! (limit wise!)

I also like some of the small stuff- Easier to access spare tire, locking differential (brake), the fold down front seat lets me carry more than the lib would, the safety (such as side curtain airbag not available on the lib.. both both do have side airbags), and while it took a while to get used to, I am a fan of the CVT.

The pat is only 3 inches shorter than the lib, and most of that is seat space, instead of cargo space. The rebates on the '07 pats also whipe the libs clean- I got 7500 off when it was all said and done, and most places are offering at least 3000-4500 off from what i've seen. Atleast you've seen the engine and transmission out for 2.5 years now, and the pat's having some of the minor kinks worked out in 08. The libs new for 08 so won't have those kinks gone till next year.

But I look forward to talking to you on the boards as a pat owner! haha.

homac · Mar 14, 2008

I am a ham also, here are my thoughts if they help:

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

If you are not going to get the "Trail Rated" version, I favour the FDI manual transmission in the Patriot. Better fuel economy and no worries when it comes to unexpected changes.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

I cannot speak for the Liberty, however many have commented the seating in the Patriot is extremly comfortable (not sure why, perhaps it supports in the right spots?) Even a reviewer on Driving Television mentioned this.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

Read this post:
http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=57914&postcount=27

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

Not a problem, you may have to run the coax down by the front windshield or rear windshield (this takes it well away from the curtain airbags.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

This will be a mute point shortly as all cars will be required to have them, you may not even be able to get your Liberty without them.

k2qo said:
Hi Gang,

After driving both the 08 Pat and 08 Liberty last week, I am having trouble deciding between the two. Maybe some answers will help. Maybe not.

First, I know exactly how much extra the Lib will cost per year in gas. But it is bigger inside for hauling my ham radio junk and it tows a lot more. The latter is not too significant, but a big load of mulch on the garden trailer or a ton of stone a few times per year is a bit of weight. I found both vehichles very nice to drive. Both were smooth and quiet. With the current rebates, a base Lib with E pkg is only a few hundred dollars more than the equivalently equipped Pat. The lib would be 4 spd auto and the Pat CVT FD1. I also wonder how each will be in 7 years with 100K miles on the clock.

OK, questions.

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

That's all for now!

Thanks,
Mark

unclejjg · Mar 14, 2008

k2qo said:
2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

Thanks,
Mark

If you can hold out until '09, I hear the Liberty will be adding a gouche massager in conjunction to extra thigh support. Perhaps that is just the limited model though.....

In all seriousness, I found the Patriot's interior to be superior to the Liberty. I liked the bigger dash, and the seats were far nicer in my opinion. MyGig and extra space aside, I'd say the Pat wins inside.

DarbyWalters · Mar 14, 2008

Which one apeals to you the most...Looks Wise...Driveability/Power...Comfort/Room...Price/Economy...ect. I was looking at the Patriot and the 2008 Liberty (from media/corp postings) to replace my 2002 Jeep Liberty. I guess I was so used to my 1st Gen Liberty I just could not see myself in the 2008 Liberty (or Commander). It boiled down to familiarity with the 1st Gen Liberty and finding a Diesel CRD for mileage (the only thing I did not like about my 2002 Liberty). MPG is so key now to any purchase with rising fuel prices...I don't know if I would pick either? I might have even ended up with a stylish wagon (Audi/ect) for the mileage or a VW Diesel. Probably confusing you more!...if they ever brought the Patriot CRD stateside, it would be a very easy decision...but the Patriot 5-Speed Manual seems like a pretty smart choice.

metalhead · Mar 14, 2008

I was in the same boat liberty or patriot. I chose the patriot more for the gas mileage. I traded in a 2005 dodge dakota with the V8 and the V6 in the liberty will get about the same mpg as the dakota I had. I really liked the liberty and the sales woman at the dealership tried to talk me into one but I needed the better gas mileage. I really like the look of the patriot more also. To me nothing says jeep more than round headlights and the new liberty doesn't have them. The patriot has good power. I have had nothing but V8's for years and I was so impressed with the power the patriot has. You can't go wrong with either one if gas mileage isn't a concern. I am getting 19mpg so far. Most people I know who own the liberty say they get only 16mpg at best.

Belveder · Mar 14, 2008

k2qo said:
Hi Gang,

After driving both the 08 Pat and 08 Liberty last week, I am having trouble deciding between the two. Maybe some answers will help. Maybe not.

First, I know exactly how much extra the Lib will cost per year in gas. But it is bigger inside for hauling my ham radio junk and it tows a lot more. The latter is not too significant, but a big load of mulch on the garden trailer or a ton of stone a few times per year is a bit of weight. I found both vehichles very nice to drive. Both were smooth and quiet. With the current rebates, a base Lib with E pkg is only a few hundred dollars more than the equivalently equipped Pat. The lib would be 4 spd auto and the Pat CVT FD1. I also wonder how each will be in 7 years with 100K miles on the clock.

OK, questions.

1. The CVT FD1 that I drove turned about 2000 RPM at 60MPH on flat highway. This is well below the 2600 that the 5-spd turns. Does the CVT have to change ratios on every interstate uphill? The road I used was typical Buffalo flat-as-a-pancake stuff, so I could not assess this.

2. Did anyone who shopped these two find the drivers seat in the Liberty kinda funky? The seat is maybe a bit short with minimal thigh support. A 15 minute drive was OK, but I wonder about 400+.

3. Any hams in the group? Have you run power cabling from the battery to the cabin for 100W radios? If so, is it straight forward?

4. Any trouble with NMO or PL259 mounts in the roof? Some cars are tough given the curtain air bags. I'd have a local radio shop do the dirty work.

5. Does anyone run an extra set of steel wheels and snow tires? If so, are there any gotchas with the TPMS on the Pat?

That's all for now!

Thanks,
Mark

Well,if you can't decide which Jeep to get, ,that makes the whole affair much easier I'd think.Have you seen the gas prices lately?As foreign banks increasingly keep on dumping the US $ the oil prices will go up and some of the economical forecast for the U.S. looks more than scary.I wouldn't think twice whether to pick Patriot or not,it's a very clear choice to me.And one more piece of advice.the cash you'll be left with after getting your Patriot can be spent on purchase of Gold.Don't forget there are only two true currencies in this chaotic world we live in.One is yellow and the other one is black
[gold and oil] and the rest is just fiat paper money that may not have much juice left in them when you get up in the morning the next time.Just watch.

k2qo · Mar 16, 2008

Great comments from all. Thanks gang!

Yes, the Patriot is the choice for sure. The "sub choice" is whether to go FDI or FDII or 5-speed. As I mentioned, I drove the FDI and it was great. I'd love to have tow hooks and and extra inch of ground clearance along with the 140 amp alternator. In my initial post, I forgot to mention that this might be helpful with running piles of ham radio gear for VHF/UHF/Microwave contesting.

The only other thing is to drive my final model choice with a portable HF radio receiver and make sure that the electrical system is not too noisy. A friend bought a Ford recently and found it to be nearly worthless due to RF interference generated by the car. GM cars are very good in this area FWIW and I don't know any hams with newer Jeeps that are running HF.

unclejjg I checked out the recent posts on Chrysler improvements to their car lines. Yes, it appears that the direct injections along with other improvements are on the way. DI would sure be nice! A bit more power, smoother PLUS another MPG is good. I'm looking to buy in last April to early May, but I could wait longer. Maybe a few more test drives are in order; one per week to try out each possible option configuration prior to the final decision.

metalhead Yes. Going to the EPA site and searching through the user data for these two models does confirm that real folks are getting EPA and better on the Pat and less than EPA on the Lib based on the 2008 mileage tests.

As for the Pat and Lib, the numbers and assumptions I ran were:

16000 mi/year
$4.00 / gallon gas

Liberty 4A at 18 MPG lifetime average
Patriot CVTII, FD1 at 23 MPG lifetime average

Liberty costs: $3,556 / yr
Patriot costs: $2,783 / yr

Run these out to 5 years and the Patriot saves $3865. Wow, that's a nice Caribbean vacation!

FINAL THOUGHT- I usually wear a baseball cap. When I hopped into the nice red Liberty for the test drive, I took off my hat and went to wing it onto the dash, left corner like always. But wait! There IS NO DASH. Nowhere to toss my hat? That is a deal killer.....

Thanks all,
Mark from snowy WNY

HoosierMud · Mar 16, 2008

7 years down the road, I would think the Liberty would be a wiser choice. By no means am I an expert on the CVT or the Pat's engine, but give me a 6 cylinder if you want me to keep the vehicle for 7 or more years and 100,000 plus miles.

98 XJ Cherokee, 4.0L V-6
266,000 + miles

Jeepster55 · Mar 16, 2008

Wheezy said:
.....after owning a Patriot for almost a year, I'd probably get a Liberty instead. The Patriot is too small (overall, general storage-wise), doesn't have the greatest ground clearance for an "SUV", and I'm really not a fan of the CVT. I know the CVT is quite remarkable in the sense that it's always at peak horsepower level, but if that's the case, the Patriot could definitely benefit from at least 30+ more horsepower.

i agree.....although i own a Compass, the Liberty is a better buy right now. yes, the gas mileage sucks, but what it lacks in that department it DOES make up for in others, such as cargo area, towing capacity and the like.

don't get me wrong, i still LOVE my Compass, but i'm going to have to do several mods to it to get it where i want it ("Trail Rated", sort of...) and with that, i could have had the Liberty. unfortunately, i didn't drive the new Liberty until AFTER i had purchased the Compass.

bottom line is that i really like both, for different reasons.......you'll have to decide what your priorities are and choose based on that. GOOD LUCK! :smiley_thumbs_up:

Jeepster55 · Mar 16, 2008

k2qo said:
FINAL THOUGHT- I usually wear a baseball cap. When I hopped into the nice red Liberty for the test drive, I took off my hat and went to wing it onto the dash, left corner like always. But wait! There IS NO DASH. Nowhere to toss my hat? That is a deal killer.....

:doh:i guess those high paid Jeep Engineers didn't think of everything

Rends · Mar 16, 2008

One Question:
Is the on road drive in the Liberty better then with it´s twin the Dodge Nitro?
I´ve read several times that the Nitro could bring you in dangerous situations while accelerating in curves.

Others than that i guess it will be a decission of needs (what else)

For daily driving on road i would go for the Pat because of better MPG
If towing gets importand i would choose a Liberty
For offroad i would prefer the Liberty.
For a smother ride i would choose the Patriot.

k2qo · Mar 16, 2008

OK, in fine political fashion, I hererby change my mind! I'm gonna try out a 6-speed Liberty with the sky slider roof. That would take care of my utility needs AND be fun to drive all at the same time. No need then pester my better half about getting a little convertible some day. Now this is a win-win for sure.

Unless a meteorite crushes my preset ride, I've got time check our more options.......

Mark in WNY.

jimbobb1 · Mar 16, 2008

At $3.50 a gallon I want the mileage. The TPMS sensors seem to be an easy deal. I bought a set with the wheels I put on the Patriot and they worked fine out of the box. My suggestion is figure your annual miles and the difference in fuel costs and see what you want to live with. The Patriot was not my first choice, but turned out to be the best bang for the buck overall in my opinion.

Partriot or Liberty: On the Fence

k2qo

Wheezy

Kong

Terasec

quasimodem51

MrSensible

eighteenwheeler

homac

unclejjg

DarbyWalters

metalhead

Belveder

k2qo

HoosierMud

Jeepster55

Jeepster55

Rends

k2qo

jimbobb1

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