Wyeth Power Puller+exhaust jack OR Hi Lift Jack

shotinthenads · Apr 5, 2011

I know I'm in the minority, but I love my hi lift jack. I have the full size one in the back end with the hi lift come along kit. I have not used it as a jack, but I have used it many times as a come along to get my John Deere 2305 out of the mud. Last spring I burried my pat in mud and I was able to get it out fine.

rocal · Apr 5, 2011

Phineas, you can use a Hi-Lift if it's for jacking only. My gripe is with its shortcomings as a winch, even though they say it can be used. To spread the load on soft ground they do a spread-plate, or, you could easily make your own with a chunky bit of square steel plate. Place it under your Hi-Lift's foot and drill a hole big enough to take a bit of peg, to go through both the plate and the foot (the jack's, that is, not yours). This'll help prevent slippage.
Now, I've never used the Hi-lift on the Patriot, only on my Land Rover Discovery, because a) it's too long to fit in safely without grinding seven or eight inches off (which I'm reluctant to do 'cos then it's too short for the Landy) and b), you'll need to fabricate a little stub to make a secure fit under the sills of the Patriot.
I've done a bit of a search for you around e-bay for electric winches and, wow, once you get over 4500 lbs limit (and that's your best low end safety margin for a steep sloped pull) they really start to look expensive. I've been mainly steered to UK sites and I reckon US vendors will be cheaper, but all the stuff I've found has been around five hundred quid new (that's about eight hundred dollars plus) and, don't forget it's not just a Saturday afternoon bolt-on job. You have to sort out the front-end fixings too and that'll cost.
Here's a cheapy tip; it won't always work, but it'll be OK in most muddy situations, if you've checked the trail and it isn't too extreme: sling a couple of bags of builders hardcore in the back before you go. A couple of shovelsful under the driving wheels will usually get you going after a bit of "rock'n'rolling". It drives my wife nuts though, 'cos there's always one bag in the back all the time and the stuff finds its way everywhere!

Rocal

Tony1911 · Apr 6, 2011

TJ99er said:
Trails are usually 2 directional... meaning if you get stuck, which ever way the winch is facing, you can usually extract yourself.

Hmm. I can think of situations where one might think "Whoopsie, there's no way I can get through this... Now how do I get back?" (Yes, obviously one ought to exercise proper judgment and not get into a situation like that. But sometimes, mistakes do happen. Fatigued, dark, raining, a moment of bad judgment... "Oopsie, this trail was a lot easier five days ago when I was traveling downhill and it was dry.")

TJ99er said:
Pulling a tree or bolder? Get some straps... I dont think a HiLift Jack or Exhaust bubble jack would help much in that situation either.

How will you pull an obstacle sideways with a bumper mounted winch? The idea after all is to get it off the trail so you can continue. Okay, if there is a suitable anchor point I can imagine using that to change the angle of the pull. My point is merely that one may not be always able to trust that such an anchor point is available - and then what?

I don't see something like a come-along or a Hi-Lift as useless in such a situation. Granted, if it's something like a sizable tree, you'd first need to chop it up into manageable chunks, but I figured that went without saying. You don't after all need to move the entire tree - just enough of it to get a Jeep to fit onto the trail.

A chainsaw would saw through a tree trunk in two places pretty quickly. (A non-motorized saw would be quite a bit slower, but a cheaper option.) And a boulder / rock doesn't exactly need to be the size of an apartment building to stop a Patriot.

Obviously, by the time one needs to clear obstacles from the trail the situation is quite unusual, not something anyone ought to be doing all the time. But I can imagine a scenario where you go out camping, a big storm hits and now you can't get back because of fallen trees over the trail... Doesn't really need to be an off-road related situation either - for example, last year a surprisingly large number of smaller communities were cut off after a storm here in Finland until emergency services and volunteers managed to clear the roads.

TJ99er said:
Its all a matter of picking your poisen.

Very true. I was just pointing out a weak point / downside of synthetic rope. I do like the stuff myself quite a lot and would personally choose synthetic over a steel cable in most situations.

TJ99er said:
A winch is probubly the most universal, trustworthy self extraction device on the market, and it has been proven time and time again on many trail rigs. The limitations you state are something to consider, but in the end, the pros far out weigh the cons. There is a reason they are so popular in the 4x4 community.

All very true. But like your last sentence seems to me to suggest, you're perhaps thinking about this stuff from a more common recreational off-roading point of view, where you have a bunch of guys going out to try driving over obstacles for fun. (Or at least that's the feeling I get. I could be wrong of course.) The original poster was thinking about things more from expedition travel point of view, as am I (well, in my case I'm thinking also emergency management). In my opinion this does change some things, especially when you don't have a recovery vehicle that can be maneuvered to a better position from which to use a bumper mounted winch.

The best solution would of course be a fixed winch for when you can use it, and something like a come-along for those instances where the bumper mounted one can't be used for some reason or another. But that costs a wee bit of money... And if one is not going to be doing a lot of winching, perhaps a solution that can be used all the time would make more sense than a solution that can be used some of the time with much less effort? On the other hand, I do freely admit that the effort required to use a manual extraction device like a come-along versus the effort required to use a motorized winch is vastly larger - which is after all one reason the electrical winch is such a popular accessory. I just keep wondering about the "what-ifs".

TJ99er · Apr 6, 2011

Tony, I know what your saying, but I think your thinking a bit far into it. A winch is a very good general purpose "anti-stupid device" as i like to call it... There are many situations where yes, it probubly wouldnt help. But I can say with confidence, that it is probubly the biggest "catch all" when it comes to self recovery. A come along can be great, but its limited, with a winch, you can be in the driver seat, hitting the gas, while holding the controller that pulls you forward. With a manual device, and you being alone, you have no help from the vehicle.

All the other items are great to have, and the more bases you cover, the better you will be. For driving off road solo, you deffinatly want to have every possible option covered, but the OP cant buy all these recovery parts, so I offered up the winch, as IMO is the best bang for the buck, probubly the safest, and covers a wide range of "oh crap" situations.

This simply brings me back to why you dont off road alone. You have 3 situation this brings up...

1-You off road with friends as its safer, and theres less chance you get stuck
2-You off road alone, spend lots of money to cover your butt incase crap happens
3-You off road alone, take a gamble, by the best "all round" device, and run on hope

I personally would get bored if I went alone, but thats just me. I also wouldnt feel safe.

In the end, I wouldnt go alone unless I at least had a winch. And even then I still probubly wouldnt do it. (and i have a wrangler)

rocal · Apr 6, 2011

Tony, I've seen something in an old copy of LRO (LandRover Owner International) which I can no longer find ( Lynne thinks I've chucked them all out so I daren't leave a bunch of them lying around; so, not really a thorough search). It was a respectable make of winch, Warn or Superwinch, something like that and it attached to the towball, like they used to do years and years ago. What this guy had done was to fit a tow-bar attachment facing frontways (I don't know how legal this is in all countries or states) so that you could unclip the winch and fit it front or back, thus saving buying two winches. Have you seen anything like that up in Finland? You obviously need a wiring-loom in position for front or rear attachment and I also have a feeling that this thing was twenty-four volt, so we're talking auxiliary in-series battery-in-a-basket too, aren't we? I also think there's probably an issue with stability with a tow-bar mounted winch, you'd need a very small feed-gate. I wish I could find this bloody thing

Rocal

Tony1911 · Apr 7, 2011

Yes, such things exist, although the new laws regarding front bumpers increase the difficulty of making one. Strictly a custom proposition so the cost won't be cheap, but it can be done - here are a few example pictures from a Finnish off-road shops website:

dixiedawg · Apr 7, 2011

The issues with hitch mounted winches, and I've looked at those for myself for sure, is the hitch usually is not rated for a high enough weight, you need to be able to pull a vehicle, which is usually more weight than the hitch can handle.

Here's an article you might want to read:
http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/Accessories-winch.html

RHill · Apr 7, 2011

Lots of good info here. Some random thoughts.

Wyeth's "blue synthetic rope" is Samson Amsteel. A core of Dyneema, with a protective cover. Dyneema is used on sailboats where light weight, low stretch, superstrong lines are desired. It is expensive and is used primarily by racers. Low stretch means less energy stored.

https://www.wyeth-scott.com/amsteelfaq.asp

https://www.wyeth-scott.com/orders.asp

With synthetic ropes, breaking and snap back is still an issue. Nylon is worst. Think big rubberband with a lot of stored energy when it lets go. Overkill on breaking point may be the best/only real safety.

The attachement points, be they tow hooks, receiver hitch, fence posts, or trees can come loose and be launched down the line of the connecting rubber band. So using overstrong everything increases safety.

To use a comealong, one has to be inline with the connecting line.

You can cut some brush to put underneath the wheels or jack base. Do you have some long handled clippers in your off-road gear?

I once was jacking up a car with a flat tire on the shoulder of a road. Initially, the base pad of the jack just went down into the soft material. I had a cardboard box which I broke down and laid several pieces out flat below the jack, after moving the car a couple of feet. It worked. Basic lesson: anything which will spread out the force of the base pad on the ground will help in a pinch. A 2x4 may be too thick to fit underneath the jack foot. A one foot square piece of 3/4 inch plywood is easy to store. A piece eighteen inches square has over double the square inches of a one foot square. A one foot square 1/2 inch on top of an eighteen inch square 1/2 inch gives you some flexibility.

Polyester (Dacron) rope will stretch less than nylon. Pound for pound, polyester rope has better strength than nylon and braided polyester has better strength than three strand. Braided is generally easier to work with than three strand. An eye splice with a thimble will degrade the strength of the line less than any knot. Knots generally reduce the breaking strength by 40% or so. A splice generally reduces the breaking strength by 10% or so.

You can look for a sale at West Marine or some such for the braided polyester.

Tow straps may be stronger than a similar poundage of braided polyester.

RHill · Apr 7, 2011

Exhaust jack versus Botle Jack and stock jack

If you study the jacking points on the Patriot, it is hard to see how the exhaust jack would not push on things on the underside which are not jack points. My 2008 service manual specific says that lifting the Pat by a force midway on a side will likely cause damage.

At home, I use a floor jack with a 2X4 wood block to spread out the force on the jack points on the subframe. On the road, I use the factory jack at the specified points. It may help to check them out in your dry garage or carport before using them away from home.

I also have a bottle jack with about a four inch range with a screw adjustment with a four inch range. But if you need to lift more than four inches, or can't get the bottle jack under a partially sunk into the ground vehicle, a bottle jack is little help.

Something I try do is to stop and get somehelp before spinning the tires so that I've dug a big hole. Brush under the tires helps in mud.

Dropping the tire pressures to 20-25 psi puts more tire on the ground. Of course, you need a pump, preferably a 12 volt one, to bring pressure back up before going back on road and speeds higher than 30 mph or so. The cheap, light duty tire pumps don't have a very long life.

Suggestions on air pump models, anyone? I haven't had good experience with something that plugs into the cigarrette lighter. Heavier cables directly to alligator clips on the battery seem better. Also, a longer duty cycle is better for trying to pump four tires from 20 to 35 psi.

TJ99er · Apr 7, 2011

And this all brings me back to... dont wheel alone...

Tony1911 · Apr 8, 2011

TJ, if the choices are rot at home or go camping by yourself, well...

RHill said:
Suggestions on air pump models, anyone?

And if you guys know of a good compressor from a place that sells abroad, do let me know. The cheapest ViAir one sold locally is 200€ and is way overkill for the tiny tires of my Jeep. (Of course, the 31" mudders under my Ford are a different matter... But still, I'd rather the Jeep had its own compressor, if I can get a decent one without breaking the bank.) Personally, I don't mind the ones that clamp onto the battery at all - sounds better to me than using the 12V plug and hoping its fuse holds.

TJ99er · Apr 8, 2011

Tony1911 said:
TJ, if the choices are rot at home or go camping by yourself, well...

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk or anything... I just know theres a reason why its one of "those rules"

I have gotten stuck before, and if I didnt have someone there to help me it would have been horrible. Just talking through experiance

Why not find a local 4x4 club? Or if anything, have a friend come along as a passenger. It depends on what you think you may encounter, if you know the trail, then you will be better off.

dixiedawg · Apr 8, 2011

If you go alone, like I do a lot, just make sure you don't get onto situations where you will need help. That's what I do, the places I go alone I know well, and are not tough off road trails, just ways to get to where I want to be for camping, fishing, or hunting.

If I went on off road trails, I would want to go as part of a group.

I have had to get unstuck when by myself, but those were nothing I couldn't just dig myself out of. Just takes a lot more time and effort.

Wyeth Power Puller+exhaust jack OR Hi Lift Jack

shotinthenads

rocal

Tony1911

TJ99er

rocal

Tony1911

dixiedawg

RHill

RHill

TJ99er

Tony1911

TJ99er

dixiedawg

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