Looks like you've done your homework pretty well and are aware of all the downsides of each possibility. Well done! :smiley_thumbs_up:

I'm afraid I don't have any answers to you - you seem to know at least as much about these things as I do. But I thought I'd write down a few thoughts I've had while thinking about the same issues.

Which size Hi-Lift did you have in mind? A shorter model would be easier to store inside the vehicle, but that would limit your winching distance even more... (And what about winching uphill? The idea of only being able to move the vehicle a few feet before repositioning sounds tedious and tricky.) A couple of possible storage places would be behind the rear seats (if diagonally you'd have a little more room there), in the rear seat leg room (against the rear seat - the center console would make placing the jack on the floor problematic), underneath front passenger seat extending to both the front passenger and rear passenger leg room. Any of these places might work better if you take the jack apart and store the whachamacallit, you know, the long part, separately. As you can see, any of these locations has its downsides especially if you often have passengers in the Jeep, and all of them are kind of a tight fit for a Hi-Lift... Definitely measure before buying! (Actually, it would be better to test fit with a piece of 2x4 or similar that is the same length as the jack you intend to buy - that way you can make sure you can actually maneuver the darn thing out of the Jeep. ) And properly securing that big, heavy lump of steel is most definitely recommended - safety first, right?

I keep having poor experiences with bottle jacks even when simply trying to change tires. I couldn't imagine using one as recovery gear when off-roading. But perhaps you have access to better quality bottle jacks than I do, with more lifting range? The ones I've tried have been awfully picky on being positioned just right so it has barely enough range to lift a tire while still fitting underneath the Jeep. On uneven terrain this sounds like a losing proposition. The narrow base of a bottle jack would likely be an issue on softer terrain. Does anyone make a wide base for a bottle jack? (Or you could of course just place a length of 2x4 underneath the jack to spread the load, but it's not as safe as something specifically designed to be used with the jack.)

I'd imagine synthetic rope would be much easier to handle especially if working solo, not just safer. Synthetic winch rope is, well, rope. Light and pliable. Cable on the other hand is a whole lot stiffer and heavier. So if your budget permits and you decide to go with the come-along, I personally would most definitely choose synthetic rope. Seems like the perfect fit for this kind of use.

Oh yeah: AFAIK a come-along handle can smack you in the face just as well as a Hi-Lifts handle. So there is that safety concern, still.

 

Have you considered a winch? There are portable ones you can use without being mounted to the vehicle. much easier to use on your own.

A good farm jack is good to have along too, as for mounting, it all depends on how much you are going to carry it around. If it's just for an occasional jaunt, you can lay it on the floor of the back seats. Keeps it from being thrown around inside.

I've not needed any kind of a tow or pull yet myself, but I have used a shovel a lot.

 

If you're worried about it being safe... i would steer clear of the Hi-Lift Jack... its old farm equipment, and often times its reguarded as a last resort. I may get one eventually, but I dont plan on using it much... if ever.

One of the basic rules to offroading is never go alone. Another rig with a tow strap is usually the best option, and worse case, you have someone to drive you back if you bust. I dont go off roading unless i have a friend around.

You could also get a trailer hitch, a hitch mounted removable plate, and buy a regular winch. Say an 8k XRC8 winch... could get one as cheap as 300 bux, and would be a great option. I personally wouldnt get a LB lighter then the 8k... theres alot more forces at work when winching, then simply the weight of your rig. If I was to go alone, you bet your bacon I wouldnt go without a winch...

http://www.quadratec.com/products/12014_93.htm
http://www.harborfreight.com/9000-lb-capacity-hitch-receiver-for-winch-66409.html
http://www.quadratec.com/products/92122_1000_07.htm

I would also pick up a CB... off road groups are always on them, and if there is one in the area, you can always call for help... Im getting this for the patriot, Its removable, you can use an onboard antenna, or the mobile one... same with power, Car or Batt.
EDIT: (my bad wrong link... Fixed)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000K2YR/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00005Q4ZV&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0Z6STK2XGX2T56B3VKT3

 

You could also get a trailer hitch, a hitch mounted removable plate, and buy a regular winch.

What happens if the fellow has to pull his Jeep backwards to get unstuck? Sideways to get the rubber side down after a roll-over? How about pulling a fallen tree or a boulder off the trail?

It seems to me that while a bumper or hitch mounted winch is a great thing to have especially if you're going to be doing serious off-roading, it is somewhat limited in its uses. The existence of a labor-reducing device like an electric winch might not remove the need of a portable device, especially during more expedition-type travel, and especially in solo travel where you can't maneuver a separate recovery vehicle into place.

i dont think a 10k synthetic line will brake with my uses. Depending on how long the line is, a blanket may not be long enough.

Remember that synthetic lines are not as abrasion resistant as steel cable.

The idea of a dampener is not to cover the entire line, but rather just to stop a snapped cable from whipping out and striking someone.

And really, a CB? Something with Single Sideband (SSB) might be something to consider, but since I plan on being remote and alone, I've suspected that a mobile Ham (car-mounted style as oppsed to handheld, for higher broadcast power) is the only way to go... gotta be able to get a signal thorough some rough california terrain. I've never hammed, just figured I'd need to go that route. Thoughts?

Well now, how much range you can get out of a CB depends on a lot of things, like how much attention you're willing to give to your antenna installation and selection. Remember that if you're in a situation where you're stuck and calling for help, you do not need to be limited to a mobile antenna - you could quite well assemble a base station antenna and hook up your radio to that. There are all kinds of travel antennas and such you can either build yourself or buy ready-made. A simple low budget version would be simply to make a half-wavelength dipole antenna out of some wire and string that up into a tree or use a fishing rod to lift it up. Or if you know that you're likely only going to reach someone in a certain direction, a directional antenna would again increase your range. (And while technically illegal, a little extra power can help boost your signal once everything else is in order. )

Here's one example of what I was talking about: the cheapest 8 meter fishing rod I could find, some wire, a little soldering and some hot glue. The whole thing is mounted to my wheel by some paracord. Granted, I never did get that damn thing working very well, but the idea is sound.

Using SSB is definitely going to give you a big boost in range. A ham radio would give you a whole lot more options and power, especially if you're worried about staying legal. But in the end, if nobody else uses the communication equipment you do, you're not going to reach anyone regardless of how good your gear is. That's really one big pro of CB - being license-free, it is rather popular.

So, choose your communications gear to fit your needs. Of course, nobody is saying you need to stick to only one type of radio...

And just to show how cautious I'd be if alone, I wouldn't just damper a winch cable or rope in several places, I would (rightly or wrongly) run a bunch on paracord tying off the cable/rope to trees, at different points on the cable, etc.

Paracord, assuming the proper mil-spec one and not a cheap civilian imitation, only has a test strength of 550 pounds. I think a snapping winch cable will generate a lot more force than that... And you'd have the cable or rope rubbing against the paracord.

I dunno, maybe that could work. I certainly haven't tried that, ever. Just sounds like a fussy and unreliable method. But I certainly could be wrong, too. Probably has a vastly bigger chance of working with synthetic rope than steel cable.

 

I may not be a smart man, Jenny, but I think TJ99er's suggestions sound pretty awesome. A 2" hitch/winch plate seems like the easiest solution (although I've never seen it done, so I'd wonder how it would hold up to the forces... seems like a lot of pressure on that pin holding the hitch in... and the reciever itself).

You guys got me wanting to get all that stuff and just disappear off the grid for about a month, LOL.

Theres also THIS ... provided $ is not a problem and you like the looks of it. I think these would look SWEET on my black Pat, but I can't afford that... maybe when she's 10 years old and I'm ready to beat her up a little.

 

The harbor freight one is rated for 9k, and the winch is for 8k. I would imagin they hold up... if anything the winch would crap out before the holder did.

Either way, I dont think you would need the full 8k of the winch... alot of heavy trail rigs use 8k winchs. The patriot isnt as heavy as alot of others. I believe in Overkill when it comes to being safe... Which is why im going to get (for my TJ) an XRC10 Comp winch 10k capacity with synthetic line... (around $550)

 

I would think you might still want to throw a dampener (like a rug, blanket, etc) over the line in case it breaks, even with synthetic line???

 

i dont think a 10k synthetic line will brake with my uses. Depending on how long the line is, a blanket may not be long enough.

 

You don't need to cover the whole line, just throw something over the middle to keep it from snapping back the whole way. I've seen a lot of cables snap, which is why I don't like the steel myself, as they can rust inside and you don't always notice it.

 

Thats a good idea. I will deff have to do that.

 

high lifts are frightening. I don't use mine to lift the jeep.

Anyone want to buy a highlift? $50 Vancouver, BC. It'll fit in the back horizontally if you don't have the subwoofer in the right side.

 

Phineas, I agree with all your concerns about the Hi-Lift and Tony's points are spot on. I've owned and used a Hi-Lift for over ten years now. It's never been fully satisfactory. I think I only really bought it because my Mum was Canadian; she was a great gal and a total Canadian patriot. That said, I've regretted buying it since the first time I've used it. Every single time you winch something heavy you get the feeling that any second something's going to go "booooiiinnnggg" and a chunk of schrapnel is going to come zinging (hopefully) past your ear.
Also, Hi-Lifts do not really like being used in anything but a vertical position, which rather makes them a dodgy employee for most winching situations. I was using one once on my LR Discovery and could I as hell get it to click after one particular pump on the handle. Like Phineas I was on my own and I was despairing of what to do short of diving clear as if a mortar bomb had come down a couple of yards away. Fortunately it finally clicked in. I'm certain that this was due to it being used in a horizontal position.
With a Hi-Lift having such a short travel there are also problems with letting the strain off in order to get a second "bite". When winching out of a muddy hole for example, you might get the Patriot halfway out but be unable to chock the car or hold the gains you've made; when you try to take the strain off, the cable just stays under tension as the car settles back.
In short, I'm not happy with mine; sorry, Valerie, I know you're upset to hear me say this, and think "What a useless kid I produced", but the truth must be told.

Rocal

 

Wow, that's alot more response that I thought I'd get in less than 24 hours. thanks all.

Tony1911, I had the great pleasure of visiting the lovely Helsinki once, and the displeasure of visiting in winter! Only place I've been in Europe. And, on behalf of the rest of humanity, thanks for the saunas! Anyway, I know nothing of bottle jacks except that the Powerbuilt 3 ton all-in-one bottlejack/jack stand looks perfect but has terrible reviews re: leaking fluid.

Yeah, a piece of thick wood would be a necessary base under certain conditions, and I have yet to find in my research a reliable offroad recovery-quality bottle jack... which is why an exhaust jack sounds like a better idea to me... if the Titan turns out to be reliable... the standard-bearer is apparently ARBs $250 exhaust jack... too rich for my blood unless i determine its absolutely necessary to guarantee I make it home every time I go out alone. And yeah, I'm really glad the synth rope exists, and am leaning in that directing after reading the responses. And I'll definitely watch out for the come-along lever! :wow: Thanks

Dixiedawg, I've assumed portable electric winches are outside my price range, I assume we are talking $600+ to $1200. I considered a portable briefly after seeing how much it would cost to mount a winch on bullbars or that fancy Pat aftermarket steel bumper (the wincher, etc). I don't plan on putting myself in a situation--which seems to be the premise of power winches. I just want to minimize the risk associated with going solo into the backcountry (without breaking the bank). And yeah, the very first bit of gear I got was a shovel!

Going solo, as TJ99er notes, is a violation of the golden rule, but is kinda the point of my getting the Pat: to go remote solo camping (including during the rainy season) and increase the likelihood I always make it home. If I want to actually challenge myself on more difficult trails, I will try to save that for when another vehicle comes along. But, then again, I don't know exactly what I am going to be getting into, and I know I'm gonna get stuck someday, cuz that's the kinda luck I have.

TJ99er, I assume you are talking $600+ too, including the hitch and its cost to mount and wire (i'm not that handy) again, too rich for my blood... at least at this point, and in this economy... But I found your links something to think about. I don't think I've previously seen a $300 power winch at that 8k rating. Anyone want to make a convincing argument for power winch, including a reasonable price tag from soup to nuts? I don't see it being a better route for me than the More Power Puller (which already seems too expensive)... but a seed has now been planted in my mind... both portable and mounted definitely have given me something to think about...

And really, a CB? Something with Single Sideband (SSB) might be something to consider, but since I plan on being remote and alone, I've suspected that a mobile Ham (car-mounted style as oppsed to handheld, for higher broadcast power) is the only way to go... gotta be able to get a signal thorough some rough california terrain. I've never hammed, just figured I'd need to go that route. Thoughts?

RaRa, I know, just thinking about this gear has been doin' something for me, too. I annoyed my hosts at dinner last night, recovery gear was about 50% of what I was fixated on talking about, never mind that they have no interest!

And just to show how cautious I'd be if alone, I wouldn't just damper a winch cable or rope in several places, I would (rightly or wrongly) run a bunch on paracord tying off the cable/rope to trees, at different points on the cable, etc.

And Heckler, what can I say?! Your youtube vids probably did more to convince me to get the pat than anything else, even reading volumes on this site. Yer like a celebrity to me! Hilarous to hear you're dumping the hi lift!

looks like I'm just gonna put the Hi Lift option at the back of the list, have been reading more lately exactly what has been said here, that its not a good winch

Anyone ever use an exhaust jack?

And offroad, what are you folks jacking with anyway, if not the hi lift?

lastly, not to further muddy the waters, but hadn't seen this posted anywhere else, best looking traction pad I've seen : Smittybilt Element Ramp.

Thanks all, very much, very useful and insightful, wow, what a community! Looking further to seeing if this thread continues to blossom

 

And offroad, what are you folks jacking with anyway, if not the hi lift?

I bought tires that don't get flats. (touches wood)

Hated the SR/As because I got 3 flats on gravel roads over two summer months. No flats since putting on the Grabber AT2s

 

I am also thinking of getting a portable winch to put on the rear hitch. I figure that a 6000-8000 lb would be good. Already have a 60 in Hi Lift but it is way to big to store in the Patriot.I always feel that scouting the path first before proceeding will keep you from getting in over your head and having a good shovel and saw/axe will get used more often.But it is always better to be overpreparedthan not.
Phineas Phreak, is your moniker from The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic.Fat Freddies Cat always cracked me up because I knew a cat just like that. Mike

 

for the hitch you can find them from $111, $150 not including shipping. I use my hitch for recovery and it took like 10minutes to install in my driveway. no drilling just some nuts n bolts. etrailer.com, curt hitches

hi-lift- they are dangerous but if you use them safely you will be ok. (I can show you how to use it as a winch and some tricks)


come-along great idea, currently looking at an 8k and as for the cable snapping back an old farm trip. lay a heavy towel or old jacket somewhere in the middle and if it snaps the weight will take more then enough of the snap to prevent injury. Don't know how close you are to Travis afb but send me a pm im mostly free on the weekends. and a buddy with a Tacoma is always heading out with me haha.

 

lol also, depending on where and how remote you plan to go... id bring a trusty rifle/shotgun!

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I love my hi lift jack. I have the full size one in the back end with the hi lift come along kit. I have not used it as a jack, but I have used it many times as a come along to get my John Deere 2305 out of the mud. Last spring I burried my pat in mud and I was able to get it out fine.

 

Phineas, you can use a Hi-Lift if it's for jacking only. My gripe is with its shortcomings as a winch, even though they say it can be used. To spread the load on soft ground they do a spread-plate, or, you could easily make your own with a chunky bit of square steel plate. Place it under your Hi-Lift's foot and drill a hole big enough to take a bit of peg, to go through both the plate and the foot (the jack's, that is, not yours). This'll help prevent slippage.
Now, I've never used the Hi-lift on the Patriot, only on my Land Rover Discovery, because a) it's too long to fit in safely without grinding seven or eight inches off (which I'm reluctant to do 'cos then it's too short for the Landy) and b), you'll need to fabricate a little stub to make a secure fit under the sills of the Patriot.
I've done a bit of a search for you around e-bay for electric winches and, wow, once you get over 4500 lbs limit (and that's your best low end safety margin for a steep sloped pull) they really start to look expensive. I've been mainly steered to UK sites and I reckon US vendors will be cheaper, but all the stuff I've found has been around five hundred quid new (that's about eight hundred dollars plus) and, don't forget it's not just a Saturday afternoon bolt-on job. You have to sort out the front-end fixings too and that'll cost.
Here's a cheapy tip; it won't always work, but it'll be OK in most muddy situations, if you've checked the trail and it isn't too extreme: sling a couple of bags of builders hardcore in the back before you go. A couple of shovelsful under the driving wheels will usually get you going after a bit of "rock'n'rolling". It drives my wife nuts though, 'cos there's always one bag in the back all the time and the stuff finds its way everywhere!

Rocal

 

Tony, I know what your saying, but I think your thinking a bit far into it. A winch is a very good general purpose "anti-stupid device" as i like to call it... There are many situations where yes, it probubly wouldnt help. But I can say with confidence, that it is probubly the biggest "catch all" when it comes to self recovery. A come along can be great, but its limited, with a winch, you can be in the driver seat, hitting the gas, while holding the controller that pulls you forward. With a manual device, and you being alone, you have no help from the vehicle.

All the other items are great to have, and the more bases you cover, the better you will be. For driving off road solo, you deffinatly want to have every possible option covered, but the OP cant buy all these recovery parts, so I offered up the winch, as IMO is the best bang for the buck, probubly the safest, and covers a wide range of "oh crap" situations.

This simply brings me back to why you dont off road alone. You have 3 situation this brings up...

1-You off road with friends as its safer, and theres less chance you get stuck
2-You off road alone, spend lots of money to cover your butt incase crap happens
3-You off road alone, take a gamble, by the best "all round" device, and run on hope

I personally would get bored if I went alone, but thats just me. I also wouldnt feel safe.

In the end, I wouldnt go alone unless I at least had a winch. And even then I still probubly wouldnt do it. (and i have a wrangler)

 

Tony, I've seen something in an old copy of LRO (LandRover Owner International) which I can no longer find ( Lynne thinks I've chucked them all out so I daren't leave a bunch of them lying around; so, not really a thorough search). It was a respectable make of winch, Warn or Superwinch, something like that and it attached to the towball, like they used to do years and years ago. What this guy had done was to fit a tow-bar attachment facing frontways (I don't know how legal this is in all countries or states) so that you could unclip the winch and fit it front or back, thus saving buying two winches. Have you seen anything like that up in Finland? You obviously need a wiring-loom in position for front or rear attachment and I also have a feeling that this thing was twenty-four volt, so we're talking auxiliary in-series battery-in-a-basket too, aren't we? I also think there's probably an issue with stability with a tow-bar mounted winch, you'd need a very small feed-gate. I wish I could find this bloody thing

Rocal

 

Yes, such things exist, although the new laws regarding front bumpers increase the difficulty of making one. Strictly a custom proposition so the cost won't be cheap, but it can be done - here are a few example pictures from a Finnish off-road shops website:

 

The issues with hitch mounted winches, and I've looked at those for myself for sure, is the hitch usually is not rated for a high enough weight, you need to be able to pull a vehicle, which is usually more weight than the hitch can handle.

Here's an article you might want to read:
http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/Accessories-winch.html

 

Lots of good info here. Some random thoughts.

Wyeth's "blue synthetic rope" is Samson Amsteel. A core of Dyneema, with a protective cover. Dyneema is used on sailboats where light weight, low stretch, superstrong lines are desired. It is expensive and is used primarily by racers. Low stretch means less energy stored.

https://www.wyeth-scott.com/amsteelfaq.asp

https://www.wyeth-scott.com/orders.asp

With synthetic ropes, breaking and snap back is still an issue. Nylon is worst. Think big rubberband with a lot of stored energy when it lets go. Overkill on breaking point may be the best/only real safety.

The attachement points, be they tow hooks, receiver hitch, fence posts, or trees can come loose and be launched down the line of the connecting rubber band. So using overstrong everything increases safety.

To use a comealong, one has to be inline with the connecting line.

You can cut some brush to put underneath the wheels or jack base. Do you have some long handled clippers in your off-road gear?

I once was jacking up a car with a flat tire on the shoulder of a road. Initially, the base pad of the jack just went down into the soft material. I had a cardboard box which I broke down and laid several pieces out flat below the jack, after moving the car a couple of feet. It worked. Basic lesson: anything which will spread out the force of the base pad on the ground will help in a pinch. A 2x4 may be too thick to fit underneath the jack foot. A one foot square piece of 3/4 inch plywood is easy to store. A piece eighteen inches square has over double the square inches of a one foot square. A one foot square 1/2 inch on top of an eighteen inch square 1/2 inch gives you some flexibility.

Polyester (Dacron) rope will stretch less than nylon. Pound for pound, polyester rope has better strength than nylon and braided polyester has better strength than three strand. Braided is generally easier to work with than three strand. An eye splice with a thimble will degrade the strength of the line less than any knot. Knots generally reduce the breaking strength by 40% or so. A splice generally reduces the breaking strength by 10% or so.

You can look for a sale at West Marine or some such for the braided polyester.

Tow straps may be stronger than a similar poundage of braided polyester.

 

Exhaust jack versus Botle Jack and stock jack

If you study the jacking points on the Patriot, it is hard to see how the exhaust jack would not push on things on the underside which are not jack points. My 2008 service manual specific says that lifting the Pat by a force midway on a side will likely cause damage.

At home, I use a floor jack with a 2X4 wood block to spread out the force on the jack points on the subframe. On the road, I use the factory jack at the specified points. It may help to check them out in your dry garage or carport before using them away from home.

I also have a bottle jack with about a four inch range with a screw adjustment with a four inch range. But if you need to lift more than four inches, or can't get the bottle jack under a partially sunk into the ground vehicle, a bottle jack is little help.

Something I try do is to stop and get somehelp before spinning the tires so that I've dug a big hole. Brush under the tires helps in mud.

Dropping the tire pressures to 20-25 psi puts more tire on the ground. Of course, you need a pump, preferably a 12 volt one, to bring pressure back up before going back on road and speeds higher than 30 mph or so. The cheap, light duty tire pumps don't have a very long life.

Suggestions on air pump models, anyone? I haven't had good experience with something that plugs into the cigarrette lighter. Heavier cables directly to alligator clips on the battery seem better. Also, a longer duty cycle is better for trying to pump four tires from 20 to 35 psi.

 

TJ, if the choices are rot at home or go camping by yourself, well...

Suggestions on air pump models, anyone?

And if you guys know of a good compressor from a place that sells abroad, do let me know. The cheapest ViAir one sold locally is 200€ and is way overkill for the tiny tires of my Jeep. (Of course, the 31" mudders under my Ford are a different matter... But still, I'd rather the Jeep had its own compressor, if I can get a decent one without breaking the bank.) Personally, I don't mind the ones that clamp onto the battery at all - sounds better to me than using the 12V plug and hoping its fuse holds.

 

And this all brings me back to... dont wheel alone...

 

If you go alone, like I do a lot, just make sure you don't get onto situations where you will need help. That's what I do, the places I go alone I know well, and are not tough off road trails, just ways to get to where I want to be for camping, fishing, or hunting.

If I went on off road trails, I would want to go as part of a group.

I have had to get unstuck when by myself, but those were nothing I couldn't just dig myself out of. Just takes a lot more time and effort.