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Kev

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I could write a book here about what happened the other day. Instead I'll try to be concise and will answer questions to provide more info if required.

3 year old, european pat, 41k miles, manual transmission, diesel. Doing 60mph and have been for about 60 miles when the steering goes funny and I've got no gears. Dashboard still lit up as normal without any warning lights. Coasted to a halt and attempted to restart twice. Making the right noises but engine doesn't kick in. Called for assistance at 14.10. In such a panic that I cant honestly say if the engine was still turning over when I coasyed to a halt but I think it had cut out. The electrics all seemed fine.

Three hours waiting at the side of the road, it's now dark and the car is dangerously close to fast moving traffic. Bad time for the battery to give in and cut the hazards. Without a battery the central locking doesn't work. Use key which opens doors but not the boot/trunk (which is where the tow hook is stored under the flap with the spare wheel). Emptied the contents of the boot via the back passenger door with seat folded but still couldn't raise the floor flap as the door furniture and pull out speakers are in the way.

The mechanic finds his own towhook which he wants to screw in to the front bumper tow point. Problem: It's badly rusted and the hook will only go in a couple of turns.

Eventualy he uses a strap to tow me to a safe point. He connects the battery to a charger. He turns the starter with his foot on the clutch whilst pumping the accelarator and it starts. No faults on the computer or lights on the dash. I drive 60 miles home at full speeds without a hiccup and have made several short trips since.

Questions: Why did it cut out?
Why cant the boot be opened from the outside (if it can how)?
How long should the battery last in such a situation?
Why isn't the tow point protected from the elements?
If you haven't done so check your tow point and either grease it to prevent rust or, if its too late, spend hours cleaning rust out of the grooves.

I want to love this car but can't because it keeps letting me down.
 
I'd try some basic maintenance first. I hear a lot of CRD owners talk about changing the diesel fuel filter, as it can cause some issues when it gets dirty. Perhaps this is what happened to you and the long waiting interval allowed the fuel to flow again. I'd also do an air filter and check all of the turbo air inlet piping connections are tight and not leaking boost. As for the battery, the factory battery is not going to be a great battery, more then likely just good enough to get through the 3 yr warranty period.
 
check fuel pump may be going bad and /or a bad groung or positive .also check the return fuel line may have a small hole for it to suck air witch would cause you to suddenly cut the engine. had a deisel pickup and the fuel pump went on me and it would run great and then stop . start and run for 3-4 days then stop.
 
The Standard battery on UK Pats & all C J D products should be the Ultima Red Top. The retail on these batts. is about ÂŁ199 so they should be pretty damn good!!The ones on my Caliber, Patriot & Avenger all gave /gives brilliant service so cant understand that.

As for the engine fail??? cannot understand that. As stated could have been fuel filter/pump. Still cant understand why you couldn't select a gear??
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Thanks guys. The fuel and air filters should be getting changed at the regular 9k service and I do get cgarged for that but that was back about June. I think that that may be something I can check myself so I'll check on here to see if I can find any guidance. Not sure I would know what I'm looking for with the the air intake or return fuel lines though. I am clueless about anything under the bonnet.

As to the battery, it does indeed have a red top although I don't know if that's also the brand and the mechanic did say that it was a heavy duty piece of kit. When he put his meter on it it was outputting about 13 volts and he said that it should have been nearer 14 however it's worth remembering that it had run totally flat. It should have had sufficient driving now to have a full charge so I can also get that checked.

The weather here in the uk has been heavy heavy snow followed by a thaw with loads of slush. Could the fact that it's been running for a month on filthy roads and covered in filth be a contributing factor?

Wont even get a chance to get under the bonnet till the weekend so I'll be delighted to recieve any hints or tips between now and then.

In case you're wondering I'm avoiding have the dealer run tests because they probably wont be able to replicate the fault so will probably tell me everything is normal. I don't have any confidence in my dealer at all. The only thing they seem to do well is itemising charges. Their mechanics were clueless about some TSBs when I mentioned them. This from the experienced Jeep dealer!!

Provided I keep motoring I'll stick by the pat but there's been an awfull lot of issues for a three year old, supposedly heavy duty, car. Landrovers are beginning to look more and more attractive by the day.
 
check the fuel pump!

Had similar incident with my previous Renault Scenic Rx4 1.9 dci :

Stopped for a coffee and wouldn't start.
Ttowed to garage,when on elevator started with no problem.
Lowered,stopped again.
When attempting to start while someone was knocking on the pump (it was situated under front right fender) it would start.
Replaced it and no problem since (sold it to a friend so he keeps me posted)
I don't see anything else explaining your incident.
 
as for the other questions:

most electrical operated boots will open only with battery.

battery will wear out quite quick if you try to start many times,even if new.

tow hole: there you are right. i got a plastic into mine for protection. hope it does the job.
 
I forgot you guys are seeing a deep freeze (for the UK). It could be possible you had water in the fuel and the line froze on you or something. Sitting for three hours may have let the pressure off the frozen ice ball that blocked a fuel line or something. It's a common enough thing in the states that they sell fuel anti-freeze additives in the northern states.
 
Does sound like water in the fuel. Is diesel fuel heavier or lighter than water? I have no experience with diesels. With a petrol engine, if you get a slug of water, from condensation build up on the inner tank walls, it gets sucked into the pickup and causes misfiring or stalling. Trying to start it moves the slug through the system and gets rid of it, or it sinks to the bottom of the filter after setting. The diagram I checked of the diesel fuel filter shows it as a top inlet/outlet, this would cause the behavior you have described.
 
Why did it cut out?
I'm no mechanical expert, but the guesses others have written about fuel system issues do sound right to me. Doesn't explain your problems with gears though, but it does sound like you were experiencing a high level of stress - could be operator error in that case? In Finland a lot of diesel vehicle owners have been in trouble this winter due to having summer mix diesel fuel in their tanks - that stuff changes viscosity in cold temperatures and can cause blockages in the fuel system, especially the fuel filter. I don't know what the temperatures have been over there, what kind of fuel mixes do you guys use and how low temperatures are taken into consideration during routine maintenance of a diesel Patriot, but it might be one possibility?

Why cant the boot be opened from the outside (if it can how)?
No it can't, and that's because the manufacturer neglected to take such a situation into account. You have to crawl in there and release the rear hatch from the inside if you need it open, it is locked and your battery is dead. Yay.

How long should the battery last in such a situation?
Are you asking how long a good battery should last, or the one that comes stock? Because the stock battery has failed to impress many, and has left some stuck unexpectedly. I would recommend every Patriot and Compass owner to have their battery checked out every autumn and to get a better quality replacement if the test shows indications that the battery capacitance is lower than it should be. The battery that I had didn't give any indications that it might be having trouble until one day it was just plain dead.

An alternate light source or marker might also be a good idea. I keep glow sticks in my Jeep for a source of non-battery reliant light sources, as well as neon yellow reflective vests. Cheap, effective, and unlikely to fail methods of increasing visibility of either persons or the vehicle.

Why isn't the tow point protected from the elements?
It should be. Mine had a transparent plastic plug covering the thread from the elements.
 
Discussion starter · #11 · (Edited)
I love this place. No jeep dealer in the world could provide your level of expertise.

The 'water in fuel' idea makes sense given that we've been down to -14 degrees on a few occasions. Can I just point out though that we dont mix diesel any different for winter or summer and the book clearly states that you should not put any kind of mixture in the tank or you risk doing serious damage.

If I get any recurrance of the power loss then I think I'll just bring the next service forward a little and make sure the fuel filter gets replaced. There were two days at Christmas when I was running on low fuel as deisel wasn't getting delivered to the filling stations so it's possible I've dredged dirt into the filter.

As to high stress and operator error. Absolutely. I can't actually swear whether the engine was running or not when I stopped.

As to the boot, I cant find any interior latch that I could pull or push to over ride the central locking when there is no electric. Heres what it says in the book: 'NOTE: Although the liftgate has no inside release
mechanism, the liftgate trim panel includes an opening
with a snap-in cap that provides access to release the
latch in the event of an electrical system malfunction'

So does anyone know what a 'Snap-in cap' might look like?

The book also does mention that the hazard lights will drain the battery. High Vis vests in the boot is definitely the way to go.

Thanks guys
 
Kev ...I just got the PDF of the Handbook up. It looks to me that if you have access to the boot/trunk , there is a snap off aperture cover, this will open up a hole & you no doubt stick your finger or a screwdriver in & actuate the hatch release mechanism...

I'm afraid that's guesswork as the Handbook isnt any more specific......
 
The 'water in fuel' idea makes sense given that we've been down to -14 degrees on a few occasions. Can I just point out though that we dont mix diesel any different for winter or summer and the book clearly states that you should not put any kind of mixture in the tank or you risk doing serious damage.

Thanks guys
The mix is from the fuel manufacturer itself. In the colder climates, diesel fuel not prepped for the cold can thicken. Here's a little blurb I found about it.

Cold weather starting problems, sluggish diesel fuel, the necessity to use anti-gel additives . . . You’ve probably heard that the biggest problem with running diesels in cold weather is the tendency of the fuel to gel. No. 2 diesel (the grade recommended for most passenger vehicles) contains some naturally occurring paraffin (wax) and as the temperature drops, this paraffin crystallizes and affects the fluidity of the fuel and may cause hard starting and eventually lead to filter plugging. Unfortunately, this problem is exacerbated when biodiesel enters the equation—biodiesel tends to gel at a slightly higher temperature than diesel.

Luckily these problems are fairly easily solved. Regular diesel fuel is “winterized” or seasonally adjusted at the distributor before it’s delivered to the pumps. Winterizing is done by mixing pump No. 2 diesel with No. 1 diesel, its more refined cousin. Winterizing diesel fuel is done to maintain the cold weather flow characteristics, and the ratios vary depending upon regional distribution. To effectively use biodiesel in cold climates, it must be mixed with winterized diesel in varying percentages, which, once again, are regionally dependent.
Most auto places sell diesel fuel additive to prevent the gelling. You might want to see if you can pick up a bottle just in case as these products will also help prevent moisture freezing as well.

As for the no gear select, is it possible that the 6-speed trans has a lockout function that prevents you from changing gears if the engine stalls and you're moving? Perhaps they don't want you trying to pop-start the engine?
 
if your fuel "gelled" the motor would still run but you would have no rpm of any sort. my pick-up did this a few year back and i still drove it to the service station (at 15km/h and 1300rpm) with my foot to the floor. put the diesel additive in and waited 15 mins. and all was good to go. if there was water in the fuel then it should have missed and sputtered like crazy on you.a deisel additive is a good thing anyways because it lubs the fuel pump. i farm and all of the tractors get diesel addivitive all winter long and i also put 1 liter of tranny fliud in the main fuel tank on my farm to help lub the fuel systems in the tractor all winter long
 
if your fuel "gelled" the motor would still run but you would have no rpm of any sort.
Still not an expert, but I feel that one can't make such a categorical statement. Wouldn't the symptoms depend on how high the fuel viscosity goes, how badly the fuel filter becomes clogged...?
 
Still not an expert, but I feel that one can't make such a categorical statement. Wouldn't the symptoms depend on how high the fuel viscosity goes, how badly the fuel filter becomes clogged...?
if the filter is clogged then it should not start on the side of the road without being changed. common sense 3hrs later into the night the temp usually goes down (colder) gelled fuel will not fix it's self untillit warms up no expert just common sense. forms are to help not nitpick and try to 1 up the next
 
My eldest stepdaughter lives in Switzerland . She has a Diesel Vauxhall Vectra out there & says they have winter grade diesel in the pumps!!
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Didn't want to start a 'riot' guys. Well I sort of wanted to start my riot, but you know what I mean.

Initialy when the fuel mix was mentioned I thought it was in relation to mixing diesel with petrol which is a no no. I buy fuel at the pump. It doesn't say wheteher the mix is different for summer and winter. The Uk doesn't usualy drop much below -5 for long so it was unusual circumstances.

The good news is that I've used the car for two weeks since and down to -12 and no issues. I'm now worried that the problem is either time or heat based as the car is running fine. I wont be confident till I get a chance to do more than 50 miles but that wont be till the end of the month. wish me luck.
 
forms are to help not nitpick and try to 1 up the next
I couldn't quite understand all you were trying to say but good grief man. Just because someone posts something that may not be in perfect agreement with you doesn't mean you should get your panties in a knot.

I'm not sure what your problem is (aside from atrocious grammar) but please, do try to relax a little. There really is no reason you should take a strictly technical discussion that personally.
 
I couldn't quite understand all you were trying to say but good grief man. Just because someone posts something that may not be in perfect agreement with you doesn't mean you should get your panties in a knot.

I'm not sure what your problem is (aside from atrocious grammar) but please, do try to relax a little. There really is no reason you should take a strictly technical discussion that personally.
sorry. you must be 1 of thoese women who thinks that they are always right. you keep on posting all of your right answers and i (we) will just read and not post. the end
 
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