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6 Speed Pat with "Granny Gear" option

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Jeephigh_11

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Any Transmission guys out there know if it's possible to add and/or modify the current gear ratios to maybe slip in an ultra low gear in the #1 spot and leave everything else the same? I was just talking to my brother about this after my serious off-road experience in my 5 speed Pat loaded with 930 lbs. of people and cargo and stalling it nearly 3 times heading up how nice it would have been to crawl up in a "granny gear" going 5 MPH at 4000 RPM's and not even getting close to stalling.

Mr bro has a 1976 F-150 with a 4 Speed Manual, and his first gear is essentially useless, unless your heading up a very steep grade with lot's of boulders teasing the oil pan and drivetrain thus making you crawl up the hill so as to not cause tooooooo much damage to the undercarriage. If they can put a crawl gear in a 1976 F-150 I'm sure they can put it in a 2007 Jeep..........Right. Now, is it possible to modify the transmission and it's gears AFTER you've bought the five speed to make it a 6 speed, and/or is it possible to swap 1st for an ultra low 1st gear and maybe drop 2nd slightly lower to make it easier to start off in? Sounds like a dream in my head, but don't you think Jeep might be able to catch on to this Granny Gear concept and make a 6 Speed Manual Trail Rated 4x4 Diesel that kicks !!! :smiley_thumbs_up:

Or am I going to have to do it myself :)
 
#2 ·
Yes, it IS possible, given enough time and money.

No, it is not practical nor would it be an easy modification.

To "slip" in another gear, the transmission would have to be redesigned from the ground up.

If you were to modify the five speed transmission in the car, to keep the vehicle practical, you would need to modify the gear ratios for 1st, 2nd, and possibly 3rd. There will also be limitations on how "low" you can make these gear since it is a FWD transmission due to space restrictions. FWD transmissions tend to be very compact and light -- hence tight on space.

Another possibility would be a transmission swap with the six speed from the promised Caliber SRT4. I haven't seen any updates recently, but this is not being offered with an AWD option. It's a question of the AWD drivetrain holding up or an interference with the drivetrain.

This mod certainly wouldn't be easy or cheap at this point in time.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I guess I knew it wasn't practical to do this right now, nor is it going to be even close to a budget, but in your opinion isn't this something that just maybe is practical for Jeep to pursue for the manual transmission? There's not need to add a transfer case, nor is it a HUGE modification. This isn't impossible to do, and maybe I'm the only guy who thinks this type of transmission has any place in a vehicle line that's backbone has been the ablity to go off-road. Am I the only one. :confused:
 
#4 ·
6-speed manual is available in Europe, with the VW diesel engine

I'm with ya on the 6-speed for this kind of Jeep (awaiting mine eagerly, 5-speed North, Canada).

And if not, one should be able to get a new gearset for at least the first 3 gears (would be nice if someone made those...).

We'll keep asking, and hopefully it will become available for retrofit at some point.

BTW, I compared my old YJs low-range gear ratios with the Patriot's 5-speed first gear and, the (Pat's) first gear ratio (15.5:1) is somewhere between the YJ's 2nd and 3rd gear low, which I think is not too bad. The "Trail Rated" Pat's ratio is the same as the YJ's 2nd gear low range (19:1).

For those who are "drivers" (pick your off-road line and work it carefully) instead of stompers ("gas l' get you there!"), I think we will manage just fine with the 5-speed (or CVT) in moderate off-road situations.
 
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#5 · (Edited)
Maybe in the evolution of the Patriot

You are right. For some reason CRX has pushed the CVTL2 as the preffered option for off road since it is the only thing available with the "Trail Rated" package. For some reason they have over looked this option. Optimistically you could maybe use size and weight and the fact that the transfer case is built into the main transmission as a justification. However, I think it is more cynical than that. Very few people want or even are capable of driving a manual transmission anymore.

Even given a manual's myriad of mechanical, engineering and economical benefits, it seems destined for the dust bin for passanger cars. Drivers today seem more interested in talking on their phones, playing with their GPS, or sipping their $4 latte while they complain about the price of gas than driving in a sane, reasonable, efficient manner. They have their phone in the left hand, they are alternately sipping coffee, adjusting things, pushing buttons on the stereo, GPS and EVIC and steering with their right. Who has time to shift gears? To hell with actually driving, I live here. The manual transmission is a true wonder of simplicity and functionality and I am happy that I could even get one in the Patriot.

If they would have had the 6 spd available for the Patriot, I certainly would have ordered it, but this also re-enforces my long held belief that even though they slapped the "Trail Rated" badge on it, I don't think they were really serious about it. I think it shows in the design and engineering. The Patriot was built to compete with the CR-V, RAV-4 and Outback among others. I think it is certainly the toughest/best contender within it's class, but still in that class alone. If you want "TRUE" 4wd capability you have to go up a class in my opinion to something like a Liberty.

Chrysler certainly (with the exception of the "Trail Rated" option) hasn't said anything to the contrary, but the "Jeep" brand in itself gives the consumer the impression that it is somehow in the same class as a Liberty, GC, or a Wrangler. Don't get me wrong, I like the Patriot. I bought one. I just think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about this vehicle based on the "Jeep" brand. In my experiences, "misconceptions" can give a vehicle a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve. In my opinion so far, this vehicle deserves better than that. It is designed well and tops in it's class. You can't ask for better than that.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I'm with you on this

I'm with you on the people in the driving world not really knowing anything about driving at all. Don't get me wrong "Mrsensible" the Patriot is everything I expected to get when I dropped 20K on this baby. Mr first trip after getting it I took it out in freezing rain for 20 miles, sunny with a high of 10 ferh, and the end included pushing through 6-8 in of fresh powder then topping if off with a muddy frozen slosh of a road for my final destination. Talk about putting my faith in the Jeep brand, especially after the first jeep I ever drove was a 99' Wrangler, and comparatively the Pat handled better on both the dry pavement and a lot better in the snow. This car has earned a firm spot in my vehicle lineup for many years to come. I guess it's more of a pipe-dream to get a low gear so I can take it places it normally wouldn't go, and I already have. Read my thread

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2563

and you'll know why I think a "granny" gear is a fabulous option for the general off-roader, sure it's not a practical option for the everyday driver sipping their $4 Coffee with chocolate flavor bought from a place that seems more outrageous then an oil company asking $3.50 for a gallon of fuel. Jeep knows there aren't enough real drivers out there for something like this thus it's not going to be profitable for them to build it, but hey, what happened to the real drivers out there looking for a company to do something like this, come on Jeep, Make a new Trail.
 
#7 · (Edited)
If they would have had the 6 spd available for the Patriot said:
If you want "TRUE" 4wd capability you have to go up a class in my opinion to something like a Liberty.[/B]


Chrysler certainly (with the exception of the "Trail Rated" option) hasn't said anything to the contrary, but the "Jeep" brand in itself gives the consumer the impression that it is somehow in the same class as a Liberty, GC, or a Wrangler. Don't get me wrong, I like the Patriot. I bought one. I just think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about this vehicle based on the "Jeep" brand. In my experiences, "misconceptions" can give a vehicle a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve. In my opinion so far, this vehicle deserves better than that. It is designed well and tops in it's class. You can't ask for better than that.
Click to expand...
I agree with what you said.! Also I felt in the Trap about the misconceptions. Thus way I turned down my order, just yesterday:(

I had to do it, I felt the Patriot can not make it at Poison MT. in BC Canada.
the angle of the hill is 38 degree aproxi 400 Mt high ( 1300Ft +/- ). I have a Nissan Frontier crew cab 4x4, w/3.3Lt engine 179 Horse power with 180 torque pound, 2" higher than the stock & 30" tires vs 255 and realized the Patriot wont make it going up hill, I will post some pics, so you guys will have some ideas how looks a hill of 38 degree. to go up hill I had to use 4low gear in first gear at 2100rpm, some times I had to push to 2800rpm ! with 3 people including my self plus my tool box and 3/4 full of gas in my truck tank (75 Litres ) (21 gallons +/- ), the rest of the gears I lefted at the bottom hill, to avoid weight.


I like the Patriot, too Mrsensible, but after 28 years driving on off road, Jeep Patriot need some improvement, if would be use for medium to hard road, need more payload extra 300 pounds?, more torque 180 ~ 190 may be, and little bit higher 1" ~ 2" ,I think the 2.4 Lt engine is good
enough. :smiley_thumbs_up: I asking too much??


PS: I ordered CVTL2, with an off road pack.. Cost: 25K Canadian $ + tax, too much money to find out the car would not make it in certain condition. I got the phone call yesterday from the dealer and I turned down :(, today I will get my deposit back.

Meanwhile I will still driving my white elephant Nissan truck.
 
#8 ·
Ex-FRONTIER said:
I agree with what you said.! Also I felt in the Trap about the misconceptions. Thus way I turned down my order, just yesterday:(

I had to do it, I felt the Patriot can not make it at Poison MT. in BC Canada.
the angle of the hill is 38 degree aproxi 400 Mt high ( 1300Ft +/- ). I have a Nissan Frontier crew cab 4x4, w/3.3Lt engine 179 Horse power with 180 torque pound, 2" higher than the stock & 30" tires vs 255 and realized the Patriot wont make it going up hill, .
Click to expand...

Havent seen too any frontiers on the trails by me, so dont know how capable they are, take you word for it, see you have had your fun in it,

here in US 4x4 frontier crew cab starts at $25K
and may have been a while since your frontier,
i now think base engine in frontier is like 250 hp
at $25K there are other 4x4 i would consider,
whether its a liberty, X, or something else,

equivelant patriot with FDII is about $20K,
different price point to begin with,
for $20K not many 4x4's in that category,

as for the type of off roading you intend to do,
agree patriot may not be the best choice,

for the type of offroading i intend to do,
should suit me fine,
 
#9 ·
Terasec, My Nissan frontier is from year 2000, with out the turbo, thus way is 179 horse power.

Cost me in that time 28K canadian$ + Tax, no electric windows, fabric seats, tape player and no gizmos, as you see is not the full edition, I want it simple just for off roading, I'm a rock hunter ( minerals ) so I'm not looking troubles on the road, but sometimes you get conditions on the road that you expect the truck will respond whit out any problems, What I can see in the Patriot is you have to study the road before you venture deeple and with some company ( other truck ) just in case.


You are right about the price, how some people say : you get what you pay.
For the price of the Patriot not bad at all. But has those small downside.


Cheers.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
So the have a 5 spped version in the Euro but not here. Why couldn't they drop a 5 speed with a granny gear here in the Americas? Looks like I need to head East for the 6 speed and modify it myself.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Wish I knew that answer, I don't know much about messin with the tranny, but I can get you 34 MPG is a 5 Spd Patriot, if your willing to put a fogger on it, I did, and if I can get this car to run a little hotter, maybe up to 193 degrees I might be able to gt it up to 38 MPG.
 
#13 ·
Jeephigh_11 said:
Wish I knew that answer, I don't know much about messin with the tranny, but I can get you 34 MPG is a 5 Spd Patriot, if your willing to put a fogger on it, I did, and if I can get this car to run a little hotter, maybe up to 193 degrees I might be able to gt it up to 38 MPG.
Click to expand...
A Fogger ???? wazzatt?
 
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#15 ·
But still the programed ratios are limited by the overall sizes of the two CVT pulleys.

The rear gear in the patroit looks tiny - I'd imagine getting new gear sets for that would be really, really hard.
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
A fogger is attached to your radiator hose, well actually it's put into a splice that you make in the hose and radiator coolant is sent into the device then back out into the original hose. The kicker is the device takes your fuel line into the top and sent into the fogger or cylinder through a brass tube inside the fogger heating your fuel to the temp of your coolant. With the PAT that ranges from 182 degrees on the highway to 200 degrees in traffic and stop and go. When the fuel is heated to this temperature it turns almost into a "fog" and thus when sent into the injectors the computer senses it doesn't need as much because your getting the same power with less fuel.

To put it very simply, the combustion inside that cylinder is not only cleaner and much more complete, but smoother and much more efficient because the fuel is completely used. I'll take a few pics of mine, but man do I want a Diesel Patriot 6 speed with a low low low gear, top speed for the gear maybe 5 MPH
 
#17 ·
I am going to show my ignorance about foggers, but here goes anyway...
is it a fire hazzard?
is it hard to install?
how much?
oh yeah, everyone asks this one, your opinion on the warranty of the engine?
thanks
 
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#18 ·
Jeephigh_11 said:
A fogger is attached to your radiator hose, well actually it's put into a splice that you make in the hose and radiator coolant is sent into the device then back out into the original hose. The kicker is the device takes your fuel line into the top and sent into the fogger or cylinder through a brass tube inside the fogger heating your fuel to the temp of your coolant. With the PAT that ranges from 182 degrees on the highway to 200 degrees in traffic and stop and go. When the fuel is heated to this temperature it turns almost into a "fog" and thus when sent into the injectors the computer senses it doesn't need as much because your getting the same power with less fuel.

To put it very simply, the combustion inside that cylinder is not only cleaner and much more complete, but smoother and much more efficient because the fuel is completely used. I'll take a few pics of mine.
Click to expand...
Cannot wait to see pics of your fogger. :smiley_thumbs_up:
Where did you get your fogger? Sounds like you know your stuff!
 
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#19 ·
Jeephigh_11 said:
A fogger is attached to your radiator hose, well actually it's put into a splice that you make in the hose and radiator coolant is sent into the device then back out into the original hose. The kicker is the device takes your fuel line into the top and sent into the fogger or cylinder through a brass tube inside the fogger heating your fuel to the temp of your coolant. With the PAT that ranges from 182 degrees on the highway to 200 degrees in traffic and stop and go. When the fuel is heated to this temperature it turns almost into a "fog" and thus when sent into the injectors the computer senses it doesn't need as much because your getting the same power with less fuel.

To put it very simply, the combustion inside that cylinder is not only cleaner and much more complete, but smoother and much more efficient because the fuel is completely used. I'll take a few pics of mine, but man do I want a Diesel Patriot 6 speed with a low low low gear, top speed for the gear maybe 5 MPH
Click to expand...
This sounds like a "Pogue" carburetor. Gasoline doesn't boil until it approaches 450 degrees F. Also, if you vaporizing it, you reduce its density through a phase change - thereby reducing the BTUs per a volume basis. Thus, with a volumetric device (like a fuel injector) you would need more pulses to deliver the same amount of usable fuel.

I call shenanigans.

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/fish3.htm

The second seminar-taught error is the method of using exhaust heat or radiator water to heat the fuel to the "vapor" point to extend the mileage. Warming or preheating fuel does have some value, but it’s limited.

Consider using hot water from the radiator to vaporize the fuel first.

Today’s gasolines do not completely vaporize until they reach 450º Fahrenheit heat, while the maximum temperature of the water in today’s pressure radiators reaches only 250º Fahrenheit. You just can’t heat a substance to 450º Fahrenheit using a 250º Fahrenheit heat source.

At least, not on this planet.

Exhaust heat works a bit differently.

It is the function of an internal combustion engine to change chemical energy into heat, and then the heat into mechanical movement. If the heat is not changed into mechanical movement it simply leaves—as heat. Any time you feel heat coming off an engine you are feeling wasted energy. The exhaust ports of an engine that operated at 100% efficiency would be ice-cold to the touch since ALL the heat would have been changed into mechanical movement.

Which means that the more efficient your engine is the less exhaust heat you’re going to have.

For example, if you have 600º Fahrenheit exhaust heat produced by one gallon of gas over a 20-mile trip and you use "exhaust heat" to "vaporize" the fuel and go 60 miles, what produces the 600º Fahrenheit heat for the next 40 miles?

If you answered "two more gallons of fuel," go to the head of the class!

Seriously, there are ways to go several times the distance on a gallon of fuel (none of them involving carburetors); it’s just that the foregoing examples aren’t two of them.

In short, Charles Nelson Pogue was a machinist with no formal training in thermodynamics and may have actually believed that what he was attempting would work.
​

Also, further reading:

http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_energy_suppression

Now, this guy's six stroke might have something, but I'm sure that by lowering the cylinder temperatures it's going to screw up emissions.

And this is NOT water injection like most people think of.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke
 
#20 ·
Terasec said:
Havent seen too any frontiers on the trails by me, so dont know how capable they are, take you word for it, see you have had your fun in it,

here in US 4x4 frontier crew cab starts at $25K
and may have been a while since your frontier,
i now think base engine in frontier is like 250 hp
at $25K there are other 4x4 i would consider,
whether its a liberty, X, or something else,

equivelant patriot with FDII is about $20K,
different price point to begin with,
for $20K not many 4x4's in that category,

as for the type of off roading you intend to do,
agree patriot may not be the best choice,

for the type of offroading i intend to do,
should suit me fine,
Click to expand...
You can get a 2008 Liberty 4x4 Sport with Selec-Trac and nicely equipped for $24,500 if the Patriot isn't enuff for ya'
 
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