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year-round rubber concept

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ijeep

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Ok, so I'm looking at a different angle for driving year round with winter tires.

There are many articles online that suggest that it can be done - but with compromises. All the articles that I've read assume that the cars configuration is with all four wheels running the same rubber.

Now I've seen dropped (FWD) civics driving around with snows in the front and summer rubber in the back [during the winter]. This got me thinking about a more convenient setup for the dreaded seasonal swap.

I'm thinking to drive around in the summer with my winter tires on the back wheels and all season rubber in the front...then swap them front to back in the winter.

With my TPM I should be able to maintain a higher kpa on the winter tires during the summer in order to minimize heat build up due to flex.

Presuming both tires are the same size it should be a doable experiment. If anyone has any thoughts, insight, recommendations or warnings please feel free to add to this thread.

In the meantime, I plan to provide updates on how the tires hold up.
 
#2 ·
Most of us have a Patriot for the solid surefooted behaviour in winter.
Not to emulate a dropped Civic sliding around.

I've seen videos of FWD cars with skis attached where the rears are...doesn't mean I'm gonna do it on the street.

You do what you want to do but don't whine when insurance won't pay out on that rear clip you are going to need next winter.
 
#3 ·
Your info doesn't say, but running different tires front and back on an awd car is a bad idea. If you want to run a tire all year long, get an AT with a mountain snowflake on it. You will probably have to drop your wheel size to get it, to like a 15. But you will be able to get a tire you can run all year long (can, not should)

But even that tire won't do you as good in the winter as a dedicated winter tire... If I lived somewhere where it snows (I live in phoenix, no snow unless i choose to go find it) then I would just reconsile the fact that I have snow tires in the winter and an AT tire in the summer. my wife's, my children's, as well as my own life are worth the couple of hundred bucks to have proper tires installed.
 
#4 ·
All the articles that I've read assume that the cars configuration is with all four wheels running the same rubber.
Click to expand...
And for very good reasons. Everything I've ever read from extremely reliable sources state that you should NEVER mix or mismatch winter tires, let alone mix winter with non winter. You should do a bit more research into the matter, for safety's sake. Good luck with your "experiment" - I hope it doesn't adversely affect anyone else on the road with you.
 
#5 ·
i wouldnt have a problem mixing tires
for years would buy used tires and have mixed tires on various cars
i would be more concerned on putting best tires on wheels that matter
whether front or back, debate in itself, i grew up believing best tires should be placed on your driving wheels, rear for RWD, fronts for FWD, etc,
jeep being part time AWD i consider it FWD for +90% of the driving
there is different point of view that states best tires should go on the rear as those are more prone to lose traction than the fronts,
but thats debateable
 
#6 ·
Depending on your driving, you might not need dedicated winter tires. If you're gonna drive through alot of nasty weather and deeper snow, it's a good idea to have 4 Bridgestone Blizzaks or Firestone Winterforce UV's on your rig. If you're more likely to just do regular driving on plowed roads for the most part in winter, you'll be ok with Firestone Destination LE2's like I have. Good for anything I've put them through for summer, and ok in winter if you're not gonna try to get stuck.
 
#7 ·
If you already have 2 sets of rims with tires on them, go get yourself a 3 ton floor jack(or use your OEM one, soooo slow), a torque wrench and some jack stands. Swap your tires whenever you need to, should take ~30 minutes to do all 4 and cost you ~$150-200 depending if you already have a torque wrench.

Edit: Also try to get the diameters as close to the same on both sets of tires.
 
#8 ·
Running winter tires in front only puts you in a situation where you are more likely to lose the back end while you have a false confidence in the setup. The power may be in the front but if the back doesnt have the grip then it wont matter what tires are on the front when you start spinning. I have had the unfortunate experience of having the backend of a FWD car slide out on black ice and spin me into the ditch on the side of the road. The front tires were trying to grip but it wasn't going to matter at that point. Just get the 2 sets and swap em out. Better safe than sorry.
 
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#9 ·
I also learned the hard way many years ago. I had a FWD Plymouth Reliant station wagon with studded winter tires on the front and half worn All Season tires on the back. I was going to a ski area but after it rained, I literally hydroplaned on the ice. The rear end broke loose and swung back and forth like a pendulum and I ended up in the ditch with several thousand $$ damage to the undercarriage.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Or practice drifting so you can get as good as these guys...:doh:
Just don't do it next to a school bus...or anyone really...:doh:

Edit: found another off a link from that one inside the cars...looks like a good workout, screw gyms I'm going drifting:p

How many Hyundais were harmed during the making of these vids?
 
#12 ·
"year-round rubber concept"

There are several manufacturers that make good all weather (not all season) tires for those that do not want to changeover and don't drive in extreme conditions. Check out your local Fountain Tire or Kal Tire. Cheers.
 
#13 ·
I am not a fan of multi-mile/wild country tires. I had a set on Ignatz and 3 of the 4 were replaced under the (pro-rated) warranty: 2 were defects in manufacture, one was a road-hazard. I wouldn't buy them again.

ijeep, I don't like your idea. Keep your tires similar all around. Its true that the rears on FWD vehicles can break loose rather easily. I didn't wreck, but I scared myself in my Grand Prix. My mechanic suggested in that vehicle I'd do better to keep better tires on the rear for the sake of stability. I keep better tires on the front of my Patriot in winter for climbing traction in the snow, but my rear tires are not junk, either, just a little more worn. Be safe!

Why not just get a second set for winter? Its not a waste of money because you'll only be using one set of tires at a time. The only added cost is mounting the tires at change time. I wish I'd gotten a second set of rims -- at 175,000 its a little late for me to make that investment.
 
#15 ·
The car Q&A guy in the Chicago Tribune posted this in today's paper.

Q: Put new winter tires in the rear on a front-wheel-drive car? You think your readers are happy with no explanation?

—N.D., Chicago

A: We received several messages, including some that stated that we are just plain wrong or even stupid for telling readers to put the two new tires on the back. We are not making this up and have driven cars on a skid pad equipped with the good tires on the front and then on the rear. Here is the explanation, verbatim, from the technical experts at the Tire Rack, where they maintain their own test track:

“Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However, in this case, intuition isn’t right ... and following it can be downright dangerous.

“When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.

“Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire’s ability to resist hydroplaning.

“If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.

“However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to over-steer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.”
 
#16 ·
miscrap said:
The car Q&A guy in the Chicago Tribune posted this in today's paper.

Q: Put new winter tires in the rear on a front-wheel-drive car? You think your readers are happy with no explanation?

—N.D., Chicago

A: We received several messages, including some that stated that we are just plain wrong or even stupid for telling readers to put the two new tires on the back. We are not making this up and have driven cars on a skid pad equipped with the good tires on the front and then on the rear. Here is the explanation, verbatim, from the technical experts at the Tire Rack, where they maintain their own test track:

“Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However, in this case, intuition isn’t right ... and following it can be downright dangerous.

“When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.

“Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire’s ability to resist hydroplaning.

“If the front tires have significantly less tread depth than the rear tires, the front tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the rear tires. While this will cause the vehicle to understeer (the vehicle wants to continue driving straight ahead), understeer is relatively easy to control because releasing the gas pedal will slow the vehicle and help the driver maintain control.

“However, if the front tires have significantly more tread depth than the rear tires, the rear tires will begin to hydroplane and lose traction on wet roads before the fronts. This will cause the vehicle to over-steer (the vehicle will want to spin). Oversteer is far more difficult to control and in addition to the initial distress felt when the rear of the car starts sliding, quickly releasing the gas pedal in an attempt to slow down may actually make it more difficult for the driver to regain control, possibly causing a complete spinout.”
Click to expand...
Completely agree, hence my comment above about needing a rear clip if he did it with snows up front and regular tires in back.

Modern drivers, especially younger ones, don't know what oversteer is as it has been engineered out of most vehicles. deliberately set yourself up for significant oversteer and you will soon enough find out why they spent all the money engineering it out.

Relatively speaking understeer is slow and even forgiving whereas oversteer is quick, deadly and all but impossible to recover from w/o a crash.
 
#17 ·
Couple things:
1)Milspectees, it does look like Michelin recognizes the problem with the current level of 'all' season / 3 season radials. I was interested until I went to the website and read their disclaimer: "occasional snowy conditions." If you're not planning on snow and get caught in a squall, the first inch or so is the worst and a tire with well-compounded rubber and a decent tread is probably going to perform well. That's probably what they're aiming for, and if we still have the MIL's Saturn Ion next time it needs tires I think I'd give those a try. The (Michelin Defender) all seasons I have on there now are pretty helpless in 'real' snow. Its an absolutely excellent highway tire for dry or wet roads, but not for snow -- unstable in every direction. In our driveway it sometimes takes a couple shots even after FWD Ignatz has blazed the trail. (Admittedly, some of that difference could be that the Patriot is better in snow than the Saturn). However, when I'm thinking of snow tires, I'm thinking of snow conditions of 4+" where a good snow depth and deep tread design will provide the bite that is needed to get me up 4 miles of hills before or after I'm on the state road.

2)Miscrap, In principle I agree. I mentioned the same situation with my old (and beloved) Grand Prix -- the rear end just had a knack for floating, more in rain than snow, but in snow I was more conscious and drove appropriately. When it happened in rain it was unexpected since I didn't think I was overdriving the tires or the vehicle . . . but I was. :eek: I still think its best to keep the tires approximately equal and wear them evenly. Nothing was mentioned in the newspaper post about ABS or ESP. As Metaxa said, these inventions have engineered a lot of problems out of vehicles. ABS has helped me avoid at least 1 accident, probably several (and nearly got me into another -- there are trade-offs).
 
#19 ·
Ignatz said:
Couple things:
1)Milspectees, it does look like Michelin recognizes the problem with the current level of 'all' season / 3 season radials. I was interested until I went to the website and read their disclaimer: "occasional snowy conditions." If you're not planning on snow and get caught in a squall, the first inch or so is the worst and a tire with well-compounded rubber and a decent tread is probably going to perform well. That's probably what they're aiming for, and if we still have the MIL's Saturn Ion next time it needs tires I think I'd give those a try. The (Michelin Defender) all seasons I have on there now are pretty helpless in 'real' snow. Its an absolutely excellent highway tire for dry or wet roads, but not for snow -- unstable in every direction. In our driveway it sometimes takes a couple shots even after FWD Ignatz has blazed the trail. (Admittedly, some of that difference could be that the Patriot is better in snow than the Saturn). However, when I'm thinking of snow tires, I'm thinking of snow conditions of 4+" where a good snow depth and deep tread design will provide the bite that is needed to get me up 4 miles of hills before or after I'm on the state road.
Click to expand...
I can only speak from my own experience with these tires. I drove them through 6 inches of snow up a mountain road and had absolutely no traction issues and braking was good. As I said, they performed better than Nokian in the same conditions. I like them and I they will sell really well in the UK where you can never predict how the winter is going to be. In other parts of Europe, like Austria for example, I think I would probably stick with a winter tire.
 
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