Over the past year I have been like a dog with a bone regarding an (until now) unresolvable issue with the VW engine in the Patriot that will potentially affect every single owner at some point that Jeep have been aware of since day one but will not acknowledge. It has the potential to cause a catastrophic failure of the engine and is entire due to the failure of Jeep to follow a recognized VW procedure.

I have one more discussion to have with Jeep customer service today and then I will post the whole story. At the moment, it seems that some kind of legal action against Jeep is going to be the solution.

hi!
what exactly are you talking about?

 

OK, here's the problem.

There are procedures for adjustments to the torsion value (kw or crank angle) by adjusting the front cam (and then matching the exhaust cam) that are well known by VW technicians who regularly work on the BKD engine. There are various reasons why the torsion can be out, either too far advanced or too far retarded. It can be because of a stretched belt, a rebuild, cam belt change without correctly pinning the cams, a DIY screw up and so on...

The problem arises when the torsion value is out and needs to be reset. Not only do Jeep have no procedure for this adjustment, their technicians are not even aware it can be done and say that the live data they can see on their diagnostic equipment does not include this value.

I am aware of three separate cases where a Jeep dealer replaced unnecessary parts (in one case costing thousands of Great British Pounds) including injectors in an attempt to correct a "fault" with the VW engine in the Patriot when in fact the only problem was that the torsion value was out and needed to be re-adjusted.

When this engine is in a VAG product, the torsion value can be seen and adjusted and it is easy to do and you are looking at at around an hour's labor.

I first brought this up with Jeep last year when I needed the torsion value checked and adjusted as necessary. I was told by a Jeep mastertech that this adjustment cannot be made as there was nothing in the manuals or on TechConnect and Jeep technical services had no knowledge of either the need or the ability to do it. I took the vehicle to a VW dealer who knew exactly what needed to be done. Unfortunately, you cannot connect to the ECU with any VW diagnostic equipment and you cannot see the value with an OBDII reader.

SO, you have a situation where a Jeep product containing a VW engine cannot be correctly maintained by Jeep, nor can the engine be correctly maintained by VW - the manufacturer - and Jeep, even after seeing a letter from VAG detailing the procedure, continue to deny that it exists or that it was a problem. This leaves owners in the position of possibly, if the torsion value is too far out (for whatever reason), of possibly suffering a catastrophic failure where valves meet pistons.

Those of you who own Patriots with this engine that is running correctly know how quiet and smooth it can be.

At best, Jeep are preventing owners who have small running problems from discounting the torsion as a cause and having to go down the route of possibly replacing expensive parts for no reason in an attempt to solve the problem. At worst, they are setting owners up for destruction of their engines that could have been avoided.

Jeep didn't call me back today so I'll call them again tomorrow and post the result of that conversation here.

 

Wow, milspec! You did your research! This is some interesting information to know if you have the 2.0L. I almost opted with the 2.0L myself because of a small recall in the 2.4's affecting roughly 500 or so engines...bad crankshaft bearings or something of the sort.

 

OK, here's an update.

I have spoken at length with Jeep about this issue and basically I am getting nowhere fast. They are stonewalling when it comes to the VW engine. I caught them lying to me on several occasions regarding several known issues in order to avoid any responsibility.

I have also had a lot of conversations with VAG about the engine and the history of the deal with Daimler Chrysler to buy the engines. Jeep will tell you that the 2.0L 16v 103kw VW PD engine in the Patriot and Compass were a co-design with VW. This is complete BS, VAG say they are standard BKD engines.

Jeep knew at launch, (it is in the technical documentation given to Belvedere by VAG), that at a cam belt change the fuel timing can be thrown off and that there is a standard VAG procedure to test for and correct this but failed to include the two streams of live data (consumption at idle and torsion value) in the ECU software to diagnostic tools and did not include the information in tecnical documentation given to technicians. It isn't common, but in certain circumstances, failure to correct the deviation will cause damage to the engine (if too far out it can destroy the engine).

Other lies Jeep will tell you are:

• "the EGR valve in this engine is a Jeep design, that'll be £200 ($296) please" - no it isn't, it's a standard VW part and costs £67 ($99) from TPS
• "the IMF (Inlet Manifold Flap) is a Jeep part, £350 ($518) please" - no, it isn't and it's half the price from TPS
• "the unit injectors are a special design for Jeep from Bosch and you can only buy them from Jeep for £757 ($1,120)" - again this is bull**** they are standard unit injectors common across the 2.0L 16v 103kw BKD engines and cost new from Bosch around £350 - £400 ($518 - $592). Bosch colluded with Jeep on this by not listing a comparable part number. BTW, for those of you with a VW Patriot, the correct Bosch part number for your unit injectors is 0414720404 or 0414720454 depending on which set are fitted

I believe that owners of the VW powered Patriot and Compass have been deliberately abandoned by Jeep which in itself isn't that much of a problem as all the VW powered cars are out of warranty. However, the problem is that there is no access to diagnostics outside of the dealer network and independent Jeep mechanics and, although VW parts are available for the engine Jeep prevent the cross referencing of numbers which would allow access to those parts. If this engine were in a VW, DIY mechanics would have free access to VCDS for diagnostics and you would also be able to take your car to a VW dealer or independent to have work done on your engine instead of taking it to Jeep or a Jeep independent where they do not have the knowledge required to fix problems without switching on the parts cannon.

This whole situation has personally cost me thousands when it should have cost hundreds and it is pissing me off as it should piss of all the other owners in a similar situation. It may not have happened to you yet, but if you own a VW powered Patriot, it inevitably will at some point. In order to get Jeep to take action on this it requires several owners to contact Jeep with the same complaint.

 

I just got off the phone with Jeep "customer service". During the conversation I really couldn't believe my ears when the representative actually said to me "well that was before FIAT took over so I am sure that it is our problem", before backtracking when I asked does that mean that now Jeep will only support products sold after the takeover. I am speechless..... In the same call, they actually told me also that Jeep have no control over the price of parts from a dealer, exactly opposite to what a dealer will tell you. BS, all of it

If any other VW powered Patriot owner is concerned about this (and you should be) call Jeep customer service and complain and demand that they release a free version of the software that allows you to see ALL live date from ALL sensors (as do VW). This would solve the problem overnight as it would allow a good VW mechanic to check and adjust the fuel timing. If you do call them refer them to this case number: 34203666 under my name (John Brandley)

Some symptoms that can develop (depending on whether the fuel timing is too advanced or too retarded) - especially after a cam belt change - that can be totally corrected by adjustment of the torsion value can be:

• Unburnt diesel on startup
• Bad starting
• Lumpy idle
• Hesitation
• Bad mpg
• Diesel knock and rattling

I know some people who have replaced several parts needlessly without solving the issue when all that was needed was a value check and adjustment that would have taken less than an hour. Don't let that be you.

 

Update

I again spoke at length to a FIAT customer service rep regarding the fuel timing issue. Again, totally pointless. I demanded to speak to Jeep Technical and was told no chance. When I (again) described the whole problem, it's implications and demanded a solution. I was told "I don't understand why you are calling, it isn't a FIAT engine". Really? that's the whole freakin point!

Anyhoo.... They asked me to simplify it in an email and they will get an answer to the questions from Jeep Technical (never mind I already have the answer, but hey why not).

Here's the email i sent them today:

Further to my telephone conversation with Jeep customer service.

Having had confirmation in writing from VAG that, contrary to what Jeep dealers have told me, the VW engine in the Jeep Patriot is a completely standard VW 2.0L 16v 103kw BKD Pumpe Duse engine, I would like an answer from Jeep Technical for the following questions:

1. Can the "Torsion Value" live data be seen in Jeep diagnostic software? (On the same engine in a VAG product this value can be read with VCDS and appears in Engine Group, Block 4.)
2. Do Jeep have a procedure for checking the Torsion Value and adjusting the fuel timing if necessary? (VW have a procedure for this)

My vehicle has exhibited typical symptoms (in particular a diesel knock) of an incorrect Torsion Value since the timing belt was changed by Stoneacre and several VW dealers and VW independents concur.

Correcting the fuel timing REQUIRES being able to see the torsion value and the consumption at idle data. It cannot be carried out by trial and error and Jeep Technical should already know about the dangers of trying to do this on an interference engine. Considering that the engine is EXACTLY the same engine that was in many VAG products and, if it were in a VW, or if VW were able to communicate with the ECU, then the problem would have been solved months ago at the cost of less than 1 hour of labour.

Regards

John B Brandley

The answer to both those questions will be NO, but I need it in writing as evidence. The next step is to take them to court.

 

although I haven't replied so far, i do read your posts with interest as I have always thought that Jeep have absolutely no idea about the VW engine (sold my CRD 2 months ago, just before it needed a timing belt )

 

Not only do they have no idea, they have no interest at all.

 

Wow, this is a damn shame on Jeep's end. I hope you get some form of resolution on this matter. This is the ONE time I'm glad to not have the diesel option here in the States.

Not that you should have to go this route to get what you need, but just in case nobody makes good and helps you out, this may be an option for you: http://fossbytes.com/an-open-source-car-hacking-device-that-easily-hacks-cars/

 

The whole thing pisses me off because I only spend a few months a year in Europe and this time I have spent the whole time fighting FIAT customer service.

To understand the level of indifference to Jeep owners you really have to talk to these guys. They take every opportunity to emphasise the FIAT ownership and tell you how things are different now. Not exactly a selling point as FIAT have a really bad reputation for customer service going back decades.

 

Big surprise (not), Jeep customer service DID NOT answer my questions. They insisted that I take the vehicle to a Jeep stealer and pay a diagnostic fee so the Jeep stealer could then ask Jeep Technical to answer the questions. As I have done EXACTLY this twice before at their request and the whole point of asking these questions myself through customer service was because they weren't answered, I declined. Of course Jeep customer service are playing the "ignore him and he'll go away" game. I am not going away. I don't have too much to do at the moment, I have the resources to pursue it and am inclined to do so

So, we now go to the next step. A three page letter detailing the exact problem and explaining why it's Jeep's problem and not the owner's was written by my attorney and sent by me to Steve Zanlunghi, the new Jeep Head of Brand EMEA last Thursday. It was received by him on Friday and I am awaiting a reply. I can't publish the content of that letter publicly here as it may be part of any subsequent legal action against Jeep, but if anyone in a similar position wants to use it as a template then PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

You are a pitbull, man. I hope to hear some good news on this thread before long. Best of luck!

 

Just this minute got a phone call from Jeep. It seems they have completely failed to understand that this engine is not exactly common rail and that their own software is not able to display the values required to adjust the torsion value.

I sent them back to their "top technical guy" with an explanation of WHY it isn't exactly common rail and there is no high pressure rail, fuel is delivered through channels in the head at 10bar from the tandem fuel/vacuum pump to the cam driven Bosch unit injectors which then knock it up to 2,000 psi at the point of injection

I think they are willing to do something, but I'm not holding my breath

 

Ok, here's an update.

So far so good...., they have had my car since Thursday (5/7). They are still not acknowledging the issue with adjusting the fuel timing to get the torsion value right, but it was an offer that was impossible for me to refuse if I want to see this through to the end

While I appreciate what they are trying to do, I think they are going at this from completely the wrong direction. Setting the torsion value on these engines is a common maintenance issue for VW but Jeep have no clue about it at all. They say they have never heard of it, yet several long term dealers (pre-FIAT) say they have come across it several times with no resolution due to the inadequacies of Jeep's diagnostic software (Starscan) and the inability to see the live data required. Strange indeed, when it is the most likely cause of diesel knock in this engines and is easily fixed by VW. It may turn out that the torsion value is OK but I think that they have failed to understand that unless we KNOW this further diagnostic is pointless. At this point it has to be said that this isn't the dealers' fault. Jeep have failed to provide the information they require in order to carry out the procedure.

Having said all of this, if they manage to do this, I will be the first in line to say so and give credit where credit is due.

 

UPDATE

This has now become a major issue that affects every 2.0 CRD Patriot owner.

The Jeep dealer that has the vehicle has admitted to me this morning that they cannot see the Torsion value of consumption at idle value using Jeep diagnostic software, neither Starscan nor WiTech. In effect this means that if your engine's fuel timing is out, it CANNOT be corrected by anyone. Although this may sound like a small deal, it isn't. Depending on how far out the fuel timing is, at best it will cost owner's a lot of money when garages start unnecessarily replacing expensive parts that will not solve the problem. At worst it will result in major damage. All of this because something that VW do as a routine adjustment cannot be carried out on a VW engine in a Jeep due to a failure of Jeep's software designers to include a critical piece of information in the diagnostics.

They have failed miserably on many levels, not least their customer service. Jeep told me yesterday that they know more about the engine in the Patriot than VW, (who manufactured the engine and installed it in millions of vehicles and maintain it every day), do. This is arrogant in the extreme.

I have no doubt that this is going to go to court, it has become a matter of principle for me and I am not willing to let it go. So, I am very much interested in hearing about engine problems that any other 2.0 CRD owners have had

 

good luck

glad i sold our CRD 2 months ago....timing belt was due for a change

 

This is the first I've seen of this thread. Very interesting reading, especially as my cambelt change is due soon.

Is there any update? I always found it strange that for the same engine, the cambelt change interval was so different between VW and Jeep. IIRC VW recommend 100k km (60k miles) when fitted in a VAG car, whereas when I asked a Jeep dealer they specifically stated 90000 miles.

 

When it comes to this engine, Jeep dealers can only work by the information that they have on it. Sadly, that is pretty limited. It isn't that the Jeep technicians are not as good as the VW ones, the problem is that they do not have the information that a VW dealer has, the experience they have, or the understanding of how a PD engine works. When you add to that the fact that the Jeep diagnostic equipment (WiTech and Starscan/Starmobile) doesn't show the live data required in order to adjust the fuel timing - or even check it, it's a recipe for disaster.

You can't take it to VW because their diagnostics (VAGCOM) can't read the ECU (protocol is different). So, when you change the cam belt pray they pin the cams and the crank correctly. If I were you I'd take it to a VW independent for the cambelt and water pump (you should also change the auxilary belt at the same time). Just make sure they have the correct locking pin set for a BKD engine. If the engine is running OK now, and it's pinned correctly, you will be fine.

 

John,

I'm due a cambelt change and would like to express my thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I've spoke to Andy @ Sutton and he's both knowledgeable and honest. He recalls the conversation with you and was very pragmatic when explaining the process.

It will be a month or two before I book in for the work to be done but I'll be sure to report back afterwards.

 

The fact is cambelt changes are going smoothly and there have not been problems because of this issue. Most competent mechanics know it is a bkd and service accordingly, with generic scanners. Most competent owners know it is a VW engine and service accordingly. That is take it to a VW aftermarket expert, not a Jeep. Starscan maybe lacking, but it should not affect replacement. Even phone app diagnostics can help.

 

OK, you raised some points that need clarifying.

1. Most cambelt changes go smoothly if they are carried out by mechanics familiar with the engine and there are no fuel timing issues. To say there have not been any problems is ridiculous, I'm looking at a file full of "issues" as I'm writing this.
2. Most competent mechanics are not working for FIAT. VW PD engines are complicated and unless you are a good mechanic and have experience of the engine and access to VW technical information it's easy to screw it up.
3. Generic scanners are useless when it comes to live data from the ECU. Part of the ECU is firewalled by Jeep.
4. Most owners (and Jeep dealers) are not aware of the criticality of the correct PD oil. I know of at least five FIAT/Jeep dealers in the UK who do not use the correct oil when servicing these cars.
5. I agree, you should use a independent VW garage for servicing, but when you have engine problems and need repairs that requires data from the ECU you run in to problems. Even a cambelt change can be a problem if the injector fuel timing is off. You NEED to be able to see the Torsion Value and the Consumption at Idle data to a) diagnose a fuel timing problem, and b) correct it. Starscan/StarMobile/WiTech do not give you access to this data and you cannot use VW diagnostic tools because of the protocol and firewall

.

 

What a mess. I am glad I don't have the diesel.

Seems like they're just giving owners the run around. They tell you to keep taking it to the dealership who doesn't how to fix it.

 

Yes, but when it's running right it purrs like a kitten, goes like a bat out of hell, and returns 50mpg

 

Time for an update on this.

Good news for 2.0L CRD owners. The fuel timing issue can be corrected, but it isn't an ideal way to do it. You need to get a good VW mechanic who knows about the fuel timing adjustment procedure on a BKD engine and a friendly ECU programmer together in one place The live data you need in order to fine tune the inlet cam can be seen in the software tools that can read a BOSCH EDC16 ECU.

I had it done yesterday and it has solved the problem.

 

Thank you, sir!

 

Wow, so much trouble to go thru... I'm glad you finally got it fixed. You're awesome for seeing this thru, and I sincerely hope your effort and patience (especially patience) helps someone else out as well.

 

that's what they did when they changed my timing belt.
they used the bosch software.
glad you got it sorted.
in the mean time i had an issue with diesel getting into the oil.
ruined my turbo because of improper lubrication (oil was too thin).
turned out it was a broken membrane inside the tandem pump.
replaced the pump,repaired the turbo (they chenged everything inside it).
drives like a charm now.

 

Any suggestion for an OBD reader for Bosch EDC16 ? I'd like to spot the reason my MIL continues to appear. My Autel MS309 gives me "No Codes Stored"...

 

Snapon diagnostics will let you read and reset codes including the Jeep specific ones. It will not let you see any live data except boost and coolant temp, so not much use for engine diags in real time. Most good garages will have Snapon with the Chrysler plugins.

You could check if you have an independent Jeep mechanic anywhere near you that has Starscan.

The Bosch diagnostics are pretty limited but DO let you see the info required to set fuel timing

What symptoms do you have?

 

Thank you, I will check!

 

A reconditioned EGR cooler for this car isn't expensive. A one for a VW Golf Mk5 16v TDI will fit.

 

Yes, good hint!

but given that:
1. you must add the time needed.
2. the official Jeep dealer goes for original parts only...
3. I'm 20K Km from distribution belt/water pump

I'm fancying going to a VW indipendent workshop when I'll have the belt replaced.

 

Hello,

I own a 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0 Di-D which also has the 2.0 PD engine (VAG group). I think I have exactly the same problem as you - (weird start when very cold, slight judder on idle, increased consumption, poor low rev performance). The mechanic can not access the torsion value with Mitsubishi diagnostic software. I read that you were successful with Bosch diagnostics. Do you know which model of BOSCH diagnostics was been used? ESItronic or KTS or something else? Where can you see values in the software?

I thought that I was alone on this topic but now I have finally found someone with similar issues

 

You need the latest genuine BOSCH diagnostics that can read an EDC16 ECU. All Bosch authorized injector service centers and most good remappers will have it.