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Does FDI 4X4 have brake traction control?

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#21 ·
APT said:
I don't expect that to happen (aftermarket axle control). You would need to unplug the ESP (whcih is probably also ABS) module as it would intefere.
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Do you think so? I don't know. If it was selectable, I don't think it would be a problem. In fact, I have to strongly disagree due to the fact that the Rubicon Wrangler (front and rear locker) also comes standard with the ESP.

I think the limiting factor here would be whether or not the MK's are beefy enough to withstand the extra strain a true selectable locker would put on things.
 
#22 ·
unclejjg said:
Agreed to an extent. The separate placement on the website doesn't necessarily mean anything, but when they use the words "exclusive feature" it had better mean something. Otherwise they are treading on false advertisement.
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BLD is exclusive to FDII. How much differrent and more effective is BLD vs. the TC of FDI? We may never know. BLD is a marketing term either Chrysler's of it's ESP supplier's term.. It is still all done with the same hardware and different programming. Nothing more. Leagally a difference? Sure! Efectively differnet? TDB.

Says who? That would be a lousy system. What if one wheel is in mud/snow/ice, while the other wheel is on dry land. The BLD's won't operate because there isn't a wheel in the air?
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I suspect BLD will not operate unless locked in 4x4 and transmission locked in Low. Mud/Snow/Ice/sand actauly benefit from about 50% tire slip. That's different than Air that has zero friction. Dry/wet peak grip is more like 20% tire slip.

I'd be interested in seeing a real comparison too. "Better" can mean very little until someone puts an accurate measurement on it. However, I suspect that there is a significant improvement.
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I suspect not, except for the lower gearing.

I also suspect that the word value can be added to the equation. How much does the off-road group cost vs. FDI? As long as FDII is better to the extent of the additional charges...can we object?
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Value is so subjective and varies by person. I wouldn't even consider FDII. To me, it totally defeats the purpose of the MK for me, good fuel economy. If I wanted 20mpg average, I can get a highly discounted Pacifica AWD, or minivan, or lots of other vehicles becasue I wouldn't drive the Pat off-road either.

I have said it before and again in this thread. If you want CVT and aluminum wheels, FDII is a good value for the equipment @ $675, +10% fuel penalty. But I got the 5-speed which seems to be 2-3mpg better than CVT and 4-5mpg better than CVT2L. Everyone's needs are different, though.

Provided the ground that the 3 remaining wheels are in contact with is dry, wouldn't any 4WD vehicle be able to do this? Perhaps not as efficiently, but you still have another axle demanding and using power. I believe the problem occurs when the ground is slippery and a wheel is lifted.
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Actually, most 4wd systems are really 2wd, one front and 1 rear with two open diffs. Opt for LSD in the rear for a pickup truck for example, and you get 3 wheel drive, 1F + 2R.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I suspect BLD will not operate unless locked in 4x4 and transmission locked in Low. Mud/Snow/Ice/sand actauly benefit from about 50% tire slip. That's different than Air that has zero friction. Dry/wet peak grip is more like 20% tire slip.
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I am pretty sure you are right about the BLD not engaging unless it is locked in 4x4 in Low. As for the optimal percentage of tire slip for each situation...I can't comment.

APT said:
Actually, most 4wd systems are really 2wd, one front and 1 rear with two open diffs. Opt for LSD in the rear for a pickup truck for example, and you get 3 wheel drive, 1F + 2R.
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Right, so in essence, 1 wheel in the rear would still be pushing even if 1 in the front was airborne. Unless, the ground was slippery, and then that wheel would spin too. Of course, TC accounts for something, so that would aid the situation as well.

Someday, I'm sure, a guy with FDII will get together with a guy that has FDI, and they'll make a video detailing the two. Hopefully, they will attempt more than a dirt road....but I digress.
 
#24 ·
There is a difference between offering something from the factory and aftermarket. OEM can provide the interfaces to disable TC when the axles are locked. Aftermarket is more difficult, if not impossible. I agree it is possible, but the system has to be designed and integrated accordingly. If the OEM components are not designed for those interfaces, that makes it impossible.

BTW, I work for an ABS/TC/ESC supplier. Not the one for the MK's (too bad), but we do have products for off-road type vehicles, HDC, hill assist, etc. While by no means an expert, I do have some knowlege about the capabilities/limits of the systems used in MK's.
 
#25 ·
There is a difference between offering something from the factory and aftermarket. OEM can provide the interfaces to disable TC when the axles are locked. Aftermarket is more difficult, if not impossible. I agree it is possible, but the system has to be designed and integrated accordingly. If the OEM components are not designed for those interfaces, that makes it impossible.
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How do you account for companies like ARB or Eaton making locking differentials for Wrangler Saharas and X's or the '07 Liberty that have ESP?

I've always wondered if it is a situation where when the selectable aftermarket locker is engaged, there is no slippage for the OEM electronic system to detect...so it just doesn't try to do the job it normally would. It seems like there would be no interference at all.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
unclejjg said:
Someday, I'm sure, a guy with FDII will get together with a guy that has FDI, and they'll make a video detailing the two. Hopefully, they will attempt more than a dirt road....but I digress.
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I'm in! Just need an FDI in the Greater Vancouver area. My neighbour has one, but I seriously doubt she'll be following me past the curb.
 
#27 ·
BLD shoud not activate when all 4 wheels are on the ground (i.e. everyday driving).
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Says who? That would be a lousy system. What if one wheel is in mud/snow/ice, while the other wheel is on dry land. The BLD's won't operate because there isn't a wheel in the air?

Again, I believe the determining factor here is wheel slippage. I suspect BLD reacts faster and more aggressively than TC. This could be detrimental in everyday driving, which may explain why TC is the standard, and BLD is the added feature.
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Actually from what I understand it depends on how fast the vehicle is moving and whether or not its in 4 wheel drive... not if the wheel is touching the ground or in the air. But even then the TCS would still stop the one from spinning by definition. I think they are playing with words and alot of people are buying into it...

As for a test or comparison. It would be extremely hard because one driver may be more experienced and/or the lines maybe different thus creating different results.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
APT said:
There are accounts/pictures/videos already of FDI MK's with at least 1 wheel off the ground and the vehicle making forward progress.
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this is what I was looking for with this thread.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
JeepJim said:
As for a test or comparison. It would be extremely hard because one driver may be more experienced and/or the lines maybe different thus creating different results.
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use the same driver. Let me borrow your jeep! ;)
 
#30 · (Edited)
Here's an informative blog on BLD. It doesn't go into specifics about the ESC, but eludes that there are differences. In fact, it goes so far as to say the BLD will go most places that a true locker can go. I don't the basic ESC as being that good, even if it is just a program change.
http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=270&p=entry

EDIT: It is not patriot specific, and in fact doesn't even mention the patriot.
I just noticed a comment at the bottom concerning the Compass, included for your pleasure:
“I don't Off Road, but I'm now curious if my FWD Compass uses BLD for traction control? I've been a little disappointed in my Jeep's traction control, but I feather the throttle when I encounter wheel spin. From your article, it sounds like I need to cautiously add throttle. Is this correct?”


Yes, your FWD Compass has BLD as part of the traction control system. The difference is that BLD works a little different in 4wd low range. When a Jeep of Dodge vehicle equipped with ESP and a two speed transfer case is shifted into 4wd low range, the BLD is more aggressive at controlling wheel spin side to side across an axle. This is desirable off road but not on road. There are two answers to your question depending on the circumstances of the wheel spin. If you are moving in the desired direction and the wheels start to spin, feathering the throttle is the correct action. If the vehicle is not moving and one wheel is spinning and the other is not, sometimes cautiously adding a little throttle may help for the reasons stated in the article.
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#33 · (Edited)
Here's an informative blog on BLD. It doesn't go into specifics about the ESC, but eludes that there are differences. In fact, it goes so far as to say the BLD will go most places that a true locker can go. I don't the basic ESC as being that good, even if it is just a program change.
http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=270&p=entry

EDIT: It is not patriot specific, and in fact doesn't even mention the patriot.
I just noticed a comment at the bottom concerning the Compass, included for your pleasure:
Quote:
“I don't Off Road, but I'm now curious if my FWD Compass uses BLD for traction control? I've been a little disappointed in my Jeep's traction control, but I feather the throttle when I encounter wheel spin. From your article, it sounds like I need to cautiously add throttle. Is this correct?”


Yes, your FWD Compass has BLD as part of the traction control system. The difference is that BLD works a little different in 4wd low range. When a Jeep of Dodge vehicle equipped with ESP and a two speed transfer case is shifted into 4wd low range, the BLD is more aggressive at controlling wheel spin side to side across an axle. This is desirable off road but not on road. There are two answers to your question depending on the circumstances of the wheel spin. If you are moving in the desired direction and the wheels start to spin, feathering the throttle is the correct action. If the vehicle is not moving and one wheel is spinning and the other is not, sometimes cautiously adding a little throttle may help for the reasons stated in the article.
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Doesn't get any better than this explanation. Pretty clear and it comes from someone in the know. The article is great and needs to be read to fully understand the writer's answer to the above question. The difference is in the cross-axle braking which is available to the FDII Patriot in 4WD Low.
 
#35 ·
http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=270&p=entry

" there is a feature of brake traction control that controls wheel speed side to side across a driven axle and is called BLD, or "brake lock differential.

Using the vehicle’s wheel speed sensors, BLD knows when one wheel on a driven axle is turning and the other is not. BLD will apply brake pressure to the wheel that is turning.

The applied brake pressure increases the torque required to turn the wheel in the air and this allows more torque to go to the wheel on the ground."


...sure sounds like ...

"A feature of the TCS system functions similar to a limited slip differential and controls the wheel spin across a driven axle. If one wheel on a driven axle is spinning faster than the other, the system will apply the brake of the spinning wheel. This will allow more engine torque to be applied to the wheel that is not spinning."

I'm sure it is at a minimum more agressive form, but BLD is the same principal as the standard ESP (2WD or FDI).
 
#36 ·
Good info. I am still wondering about the additional chassis re-enforcement that I found in the parts catalog. It did not show how it was attached so perhaps it really is the re-enforcement for the arms. The images are rather vague....:eek:
 
#39 ·
unclejjg said:
Doesn't get any better than this explanation. Pretty clear and it comes from someone in the know. The article is great and needs to be read to fully understand the writer's answer to the above question. The difference is in the cross-axle braking which is available to the FDII Patriot in 4WD Low.
Click to expand...

Now that it was posted by Chrysler on Chrysler's own blog if its not true its false advertising...

However the blog writer (Loren Trotter) said "Yes, your FWD Compass has BLD as part of the traction control system." flat out. She then states that the 4wd models are more aggressive when it comes to stopping wheel spin if it has a transfer case and is in low lock... But guess what neither the Compass nor the Patriot (FDI and FDII) have transfer cases!

So to me this means all MK's have BLD's regardless of FDI or FDII. Now I may be wrong but to me it also means that since MK's do not have transfer cases neither has the more aggressive BLD's that the Wranglers, Grand Cherokees and Commanders have. Which can be cross referenced with her first post where she states "Since then, traction control has been added to the Commander, Liberty and Wrangler." This really surprises me that that Liberty was not included with this feature as the time she wrote that (on Feb. 11th, 2008) because it does have a transfer case with low lock.
 
#40 ·
Quite honestly it sounds to me that the main difference between the FD1 and FD2 system is merely the gear ratio and some programming changes. I wonder if someone down the road will hack the software and allow you to change the tamer FD1's programming to make it more FD2 like. Add a lift kit, skid plates and some frame re-inforcement and you have yourself an almost FD2.

It makes sense because then they only have to change one element of the transmission mechanically, the gear ratio, and just alter software. Saves them money in the manufacturing process but at the same time at the marketing end gives them a whole new system to sell at the cost of some software and gears, which is peanuts. Good profit for them.
 
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