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heckler

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Does your FDI 4X4 have traction control when driving slowly off road? When a wheel lifts, does it spin in the air, or are the brakes individually applied to stop it from spinning?

http://www.jeep.com/en/4x4/how_systems_work/freedom_drive/

according to this, only the FDII system has offroad brake traction control.

I'm curious to hear what an FDI does when a wheel or two go in the air offroad.
 
Brake as in applying the brakes, nope.
Braking as in engine braking, yes.

The real question is what does the DSC system do?

The FDI front and rear are not "limited slip" which means that if the wheel is spinning on one side, the other side will just sit there. In 4X4 mode, the power is distributed evenly between the front and rear but not side to side. In AWD mode, power is diverted from the front to the rear as needed.

I would be a bit concerned with twisting the chassis on an FDI Patriot as it does not have the chassis re-enforcement in the rear that the FDII does....
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I would be a bit concerned with twisting the chassis on an FDI Patriot as it does not have the chassis re-enforcement in the rear that the FDII does....
huh??? I don't see "chassis reinforcement on the list.



Freedom-Drive II Off-Road Group $ 975

140 Amp Alternator
Tire & Wheel Group
Tires: P215/65R17 OWL All Terrain
4-Wheel Drive Off-Road Mode
Air Filtering
Brake Lock Differential
Engine Oil Cooler
Fog Lamps
Fuel Tank Skid Plate Shield
Hill Descent Control
Passenger Assist Handles
Tow Hooks
Trail Rated Badge
Transmission/Engine Oil Pan Skid Plate
 
I believe that they did mention a reinforcement of some sort.

As for traction control, all Patriots come standard with it as part of the ESP program. It is not the same as Brake Lock Differentials that is unique to the FDII models.
 
Actually all Patriots have additional frame support... As you see in this photo it has a normal looking truck frame added to the standard Unibody design.

Image


This was a selling point for the 2007, not the 2008 so much from what I have seen.

*disregard the red circle. I used the same photo to show low points in clearance in another thread.
 
Pretty funny gramps and I were posting the at the same time... but in both our photos you can see they do not mention additional frame, cross rails or anything... but you can also see they have more of a frame than most unibody's too.
 
Jim, what a hoot! (that's a mid-west expression the best that I can figure out). I thought that I had read somewhere (in the early info) that it had more reinforcements too. Other than what Jim has pointed out there are the 3 bars welded on to each of the rear lower control arms on the FD II that are not on the others, easy to add on if you have access to a welder.
 
the only thing that i know of that has additional reinforcement are the rear lower control arms which appears to me to be more of an additional 'skid plate' for the rear suspension, not so much 'additional reinforcement'.

i would still have to see a 'std' Patriot and a 'Trail Rated' Patriot from the view above to see if there are any additional crossmembers. as far as i know, there's nothing additional on the 'frame' or uni-body. :doh:
 
This is in my Compass owner's manual, which is not even availible with FDII. I don't expect Patriot FDI to be any different. In fact, it can never be disabled, brake TC as a form of electronic limited slip differential.

Traction Control System (TCS)
This system monitors the amount of wheel spin of each of the driven wheels. If wheel spin is detected, brake pressure is applied to the slipping wheel(s) and engine power is reduced to provide enhanced acceleration and stability. A feature of the TCS system functions similar to a limited slip differential and controls the wheel spin across a driven axle. If one wheel on a driven axle is spinning faster than the other, the system will apply the brake of the spinning wheel. This will allow more engine torque to be applied to the wheel that is not spinning. This feature remains active even if TCS and ESP are in
either the “Partial Off” or “ESP Off” modes. Refer to “Electronic Stability Program (ESP)” in this Section of this manual.
 
APT, I too have posted that paragraph in another conversation regarding this matter. Which is why I truly believe the only differences is the lower gearing (which isn't really that much lower anyway) in the FDII than the FDI, oh and the additional clearance.
 
APT, I too have posted that paragraph in another conversation regarding this matter. Which is why I truly believe the only differences is the lower gearing (which isn't really that much lower anyway) in the FDII than the FDI, oh and the additional clearance.
So you believe that Brake Lock Differentials are the same as Traction Control? Do you also believe that the off-road anti-lock brakes, tow hooks, skid plates, heavy duty cooling, fog lamps, and extra water sealing are imaginary?

ESP and Traction Control are discussed as something standard on all Patriot models at the following link: http://www.jeep.com/en/2008/patriot/safety_security/accident_avoidance/

Note that it is under the Safety and Security heading, in the Accident Avoidance subheading. Click on "Electronic Stability Program [1] and read the description.

Brake Lock Differentials is discussed as a unique feature for FDII models. Here is the link: http://www.jeep.com/en/2008/patriot/capability/drive_systems/

Note that it is under the Capability heading, in the Drive System subheading. Click on Freedom-Drive II 4WD Off-Road Group and read the description.

They are not the same, although they may have similar jobs. We can agree that low gearing in the FDII is not the same as the "L" on the Compass and FDI. They would be used for similar instances, but the FDII is more aggressive.

Why can't the same be said for Brake Lock Differentials? Perhaps it is a more aggressive version of TC that reacts more quickly and harshly to wheel-slip and doesn't cut throttle.

Maybe the Brake Lock Differentials would be too harsh for everyday driving...like when you require some differences in wheel spin. Turning is a great example...thus it isn't good for a vehicle like the Wrangler to have Locking Differentials always engaged. Perhaps the BLD's would interfere with steering in a similar way to the Wrangler's mechanical Locking Differentials.

Hence, Traction Control is used for everyday driving. But TC wouldn't cut it for off-roading, so they developed BLD's.

How is this hard to accept?
 
ok you got me on a few of them unclejjg... however noonne has proven the extra water sealing around the doors... I know I compared the ones at my dealer and my offroad FDI looked the same as the FDII they had.

The gearing is more aggressive (or lower) 19:1 rather than 15:1...

Ok that does make sense to me unclejjg... I wonder how long it be before we can see a product that adds on traction lock control for non-FDII.
 
So you believe that Brake Lock Differentials are the same as Traction Control?
Very similar. Brake Lock Differentials is an improved electronic version of LSD. BLD can actually lock a wheel that it thinks is oof the ground in order to route power to the other wheel on the ground. The FDI version will allow that wheel to spin some, but still applies brakes to the wheel in the air to get the other wheel with grip to turn.

Do you also believe that the off-road anti-lock brakes, tow hooks, skid plates, heavy duty cooling, fog lamps, and extra water sealing are imaginary?
Imaginary? No. Useful? Sometimes.

ESP and Traction Control are discussed as something standard on all Patriot models at the following link: http://www.jeep.com/en/2008/patriot/safety_security/accident_avoidance/

Note that it is under the Safety and Security heading, in the Accident Avoidance subheading. Click on "Electronic Stability Program [1] and read the description.
Just because marketing puts them in different places in their advertising web site, does not mean they are used exclusivly (ESP & BLD).

They are not the same, although they may have similar jobs. We can agree that low gearing in the FDII is not the same as the "L" on the Compass and FDI. They would be used for similar instances, but the FDII is more aggressive.
FDI vs. FDI low gearing using the same transmission and same transmission gear ratios. The difference is only the axle ratio: 6.12 for the CVT2 and 8.13 for the CVT2L. This gives the crawl ratios of 14.37 and 19.1.


Maybe the Brake Lock Differentials would be too harsh for everyday driving...like when you require some differences in wheel spin. Turning is a great example...thus it isn't good for a vehicle like the Wrangler to have Locking Differentials always engaged. Perhaps the BLD's would interfere with steering in a similar way to the Wrangler's mechanical Locking Differentials.
BLD shoud not activate when all 4 wheels are on the ground (i.e. everyday driving).

How is this hard to accept?
FDII > FDI. No one can argue that. I've even said the FDII package is a bargain if you want aluminum wheels and CVT. What I (and I think JeepJim) argue is how much better. How useful are those extra things in true off-road conditions? No one has done A/B comparisons of FDI/FDII that has shown a FDI not able to drive somewhere a FDII has.

There are accounts/pictures/videos already of FDI MK's with at least 1 wheel off the ground and the vehicle making forward progress.

To the OP, most people perfer to have ESP Off (at least engine TC off) when off-roading or even playing in snow.
 
ok you got me on a few of them unclejjg... however noonne has proven the extra water sealing around the doors... I know I compared the ones at my dealer and my offroad FDI looked the same as the FDII they had.

The gearing is more aggressive (or lower) 19:1 rather than 15:1...

Ok that does make sense to me unclejjg... I wonder how long it be before we can see a product that adds on traction lock control for non-FDII.
If the aftermarket (ARB or Eaton) would step up and make an air or electric controlled mechanical locker for the MK's, we could clear this whole thing up in a jiffy!
 
Very similar. Brake Lock Differentials is an improved electronic version of LSD. BLD can actually lock a wheel that it thinks is off the ground in order to route power to the other wheel on the ground. The FDI version will allow that wheel to spin some, but still applies brakes to the wheel in the air to
Agreed. But, as you mention, they are different systems. At least in their aggression.


Just because marketing puts them in different places in their advertising web site, does not mean they are used exclusivly (ESP & BLD).
Agreed to an extent. The separate placement on the website doesn't necessarily mean anything, but when they use the words "exclusive feature" it had better mean something. Otherwise they are treading on false advertisement.

FDI vs. FDI low gearing using the same transmission and same transmission gear ratios. The difference is only the axle ratio: 6.12 for the CVT2 and 8.13 for the CVT2L. This gives the crawl ratios of 14.37 and 19.1.
Fully agreed here. But my point is, Jeep said there is a lower gearing in the FDII vs. the FDI. However they achieved it, they weren't lying. Likewise, they say there is a difference between BLD's and TC....without proof to the contrary, I tend to believe they aren't lying here either.



BLD shoud not activate when all 4 wheels are on the ground (i.e. everyday driving).
Says who? That would be a lousy system. What if one wheel is in mud/snow/ice, while the other wheel is on dry land. The BLD's won't operate because there isn't a wheel in the air?

Again, I believe the determining factor here is wheel slippage. I suspect BLD reacts faster and more aggressively than TC. This could be detrimental in everyday driving, which may explain why TC is the standard, and BLD is the added feature.


FDII > FDI. No one can argue that. What I (and I think JeepJim) argue is how much better. How useful are those extra things in true off-road conditions? No one has done A/B comparisons of FDI/FDII that has shown a FDI not able to drive somewhere a FDII has.
I'd be interested in seeing a real comparison too. "Better" can mean very little until someone puts an accurate measurement on it. However, I suspect that there is a significant improvement.

I also suspect that the word value can be added to the equation. How much does the off-road group cost vs. FDI? As long as FDII is better to the extent of the additional charges...can we object?

There are accounts/pictures/videos already of FDI MK's with at least 1 wheel off the ground and the vehicle making forward progress.
Provided the ground that the 3 remaining wheels are in contact with is dry, wouldn't any 4WD vehicle be able to do this? Perhaps not as efficiently, but you still have another axle demanding and using power. I believe the problem occurs when the ground is slippery and a wheel is lifted.
 
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