I've heard some good and some bad about the CVT--good for fuel efficiency but revs up high when pushed and can be a little noisy...wondering if anybody is looking for a manual tranny in the Patriot?
Manual tranny vs CVT---what do you think?
frosty
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the CVT was a concern of mine and test drove it a couple times to put my mind at ease.I'm to old for a 5 speed and do alot of city driving, it would drive my crazy. On weekends i'm in the mountains of the east coast, so not alot of big passes to go up and over like out west. I could see the engine being pushed in those conditions, but for me the CVT is just fine. I always take an extended warranty, so i should be good to go.
HighDesert, how do you think the manual tranny and the 2.4 would do off road? Does 1st gear seem low enough to lug up a hill and/or keep you slow going down?
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Hmmmm ... good question concerning the off road issue. As best I recollect, first gear seemed lower than the first in my Cherokee. The clutch was very light with good modulation; a real delight compared to other jeeps I have driven. So, I would suspect the overall gearing to be quite adequate for marginal dirt roads, meaning heavily rutted, washboard, and occasionally stopping to move slowly over a hump or log. I believe the ground clearance and wheel base may actually be more of a limitation than the transmission.
For what it's worth, I live on an unmaintained dirt road and would have no reservations about the Patriot as a daily driver.
For what it's worth, I live on an unmaintained dirt road and would have no reservations about the Patriot as a daily driver.
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Seems to me CVTs are a bit like going to prison or sufffering a disabling injury. I have heard a ton of folks say they eventually "get used to it" but I don't recall anyone actually saying they enjoy it.
I am ordering the 5 speed. I can understand why they do not offer the trail rated version with a manual tranny (the low range is integrated into the CVT) but I am disappointed I cannot order the suspension and undercarriage upgrades with the manual either.
P.S. I found the position of the shifter looked awkward as well, but it fell to hand perfectly, especially after I figured how how to slide the armrest forward.
I am ordering the 5 speed. I can understand why they do not offer the trail rated version with a manual tranny (the low range is integrated into the CVT) but I am disappointed I cannot order the suspension and undercarriage upgrades with the manual either.
P.S. I found the position of the shifter looked awkward as well, but it fell to hand perfectly, especially after I figured how how to slide the armrest forward.
I agree with you about the wanting all the off road goodies offered with the trail rated version escecially the 1" higher ground clearance and heavy duty rear suspension. Hopefully someone will come out with an aftermarket kit that will allow you to outfit your Patriot with everything the FDII has to offer minus the CVT w/crawl gear. I would still rather see it offered as a special package from Jeep. Maybe someone is listening....
I have always driven standards. But at the same time I have always driven sports cars. And I think a sport car w/ an automatic is like an off road vehicle w/o a lo gear. It doesnt do what it should. But I liked the cvt. I dont want a Patriot for going fast. I want it for off roading. I especially thought the cvt was super nice in stop and go traffic. It was much more effortless and smooth than the best manual could ever give you. And Im sure off road, the cvt will be much better than a standard could ever be, giving you the right amount of torque and giving it very smoothly. Lots of people off road with a standard but an all day outing can really wear out your clutch leg, and giving too much torque can get you into trouble.
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Superdave,
If you had a choice between a traditional automatic and a CVT on the Patriot, which would you pick?
If you had a choice between a traditional automatic and a CVT on the Patriot, which would you pick?
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Agree that DC needs to offer the off-road suspension as an option. Jeep provided this as the UpCountry option on the Cherokee independent of transmission choice, so why not on the Patriot?
I think one of the reviewers hit the nail on the head when he said get an old Cherokee and build it for off-road use. After market parts are prevalent and, very importantly, the lift is not limited by the constraints of the independent suspension. And, when that first dent occurs, there won't be the anguish of trashing a new vehicle.
I think one of the reviewers hit the nail on the head when he said get an old Cherokee and build it for off-road use. After market parts are prevalent and, very importantly, the lift is not limited by the constraints of the independent suspension. And, when that first dent occurs, there won't be the anguish of trashing a new vehicle.
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Edmunds states "Equipped with the CVT, the Patriot feels flat-footed as that transmission seems to sap power from the engine. With the manual gearbox, there's more thrust on tap, and it's delivered in a more linear and familiar fashion. With a 0-60-mph estimate of around 10 seconds for the 2.4-liter four with a CVT, the Patriot is a mid- to back-packer in the small SUV segment."
Motor Trend shows a 0-60 of 9.3sec for the Manual tranny. Those figures are consistent with the former Cherokee where the manual tranny was at least one second faster to sixty than the automatic.
I suppose, for now, we have to decide whether we want performance on-road or off-road ...
Motor Trend shows a 0-60 of 9.3sec for the Manual tranny. Those figures are consistent with the former Cherokee where the manual tranny was at least one second faster to sixty than the automatic.
I suppose, for now, we have to decide whether we want performance on-road or off-road ...
What I see is that DC wanted a simple and economical solution for the auto transmission and furthermore they didn't want to add an extra low gear system (which increases cost and weight) to the trail rated version.
I haven't drive a CVT yet but if it fits the bill (for me the trail rated version is one way) then I have no problem with high performance on-road.
I haven't drive a CVT yet but if it fits the bill (for me the trail rated version is one way) then I have no problem with high performance on-road.
For me, if Im not shifting myself, it doesnt matter that much. All and all, if a traditional and CVT were both offered and priced the same I would still take the CVT because I dont think there is any advantage to a traditional transmission. And Jeep seems to like 4 speeds and I just dont think they drive as well as 5 or 6 speed autos. The CVT gets better gas mileage, its a smoother ride, and I think you'll get less wheel spin and better traction off road. I read a review of the Compass where they were climbing sand dunes, and they were saying they thought the way that the CVT adjusts allowed them better climbing then they would have gotten in a traditional transmission.
I know there are some maintence concerns but I dont have any. My dads best friend just had to replace an auto tranny on his Liberty thats only a couple of years old. And I think with belts and pulleys theres less to screw up and that it'd be easier to fix than rebuilding a traditional transmission. Some people are bothered by the lack of shifts, but I think people will get used to it as more and more cars start to use CVTs. And with as much traffic as I deal with in Dallas/Ft Worth, it reduces my wife's car sickness with its smoothness.
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I think that it is a highly personal decision. I like manual transmissions. But I don't like getting stuck in stop-n-go traffic with a manual. For vehicles with small engines, manual transmissions really aren't geared for the open highways. They're geared to improve acceleration from a stop. My previous vehicle (05 Scion xB) had the smoothest shifting manual I've ever driven. It was great for in-city driving...very zippy. But the gearing wasn't optimized for highway cruising. The tach wobbled around 4000 RPMs at 75mph... and 4500 at 80.
I now have nearly 700 miles on my CVT equipped Patriot and was able get it up to 70mph. I was quite pleased to see the engine whispering at about 2200 RPMs. In the city, when I needed to quickly accelerate from a standing stop, punching the accelerator brought the vehicle up to speed quickly.
It's too early to tell for sure, but based on what I've experienced so far with the CVT, I'm sold!
I don't care if others think that "real Jeeps" only have manual transmissions. If the CVT offers the best of both worlds (city and highway driving) then that's what matters to me. Especially on the open Arizona highways out here.
I now have nearly 700 miles on my CVT equipped Patriot and was able get it up to 70mph. I was quite pleased to see the engine whispering at about 2200 RPMs. In the city, when I needed to quickly accelerate from a standing stop, punching the accelerator brought the vehicle up to speed quickly.
It's too early to tell for sure, but based on what I've experienced so far with the CVT, I'm sold!
I don't care if others think that "real Jeeps" only have manual transmissions. If the CVT offers the best of both worlds (city and highway driving) then that's what matters to me. Especially on the open Arizona highways out here.
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Did you drive along the endless straighaways of Texas or some sharp hills in Colorado?
We have Patriot that weighs 1500 kg (the 4x4 limited) with 172 hp which means 8.7 kg/hp. This a very good number at least for my taste and my European mind.
I really don't understand why you are so afraid of the performance of the car
For example the RAV4 with 2.0l engine weighs 1550 kg and has 152 hp= 10,19 kg/hp
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.7 V6 1780 kg and 189hp = 9,4 kg/hp
Jeep Liberty 3.7 V6 1941kg and 210Hp = 9.24 kg/hp
even Hummer H3 with 3.7 weighs 2231 kg with 245hp = 9,1 kg/hp
The only difference between Liberty and Patriot is the extra torque of Liberty due to bigger engine.
I hope that real world will verify my assumption based on paper numbers
PS1. That's a very simplistic approach (a wrong final drive ratio could kill all the benefits of good kg/hp analogy) but anyway a true one.
PS2. My only concern is that most of the pundit's reviews dislike the CVT and it's performance
I really don't understand why you are so afraid of the performance of the car
For example the RAV4 with 2.0l engine weighs 1550 kg and has 152 hp= 10,19 kg/hp
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.7 V6 1780 kg and 189hp = 9,4 kg/hp
Jeep Liberty 3.7 V6 1941kg and 210Hp = 9.24 kg/hp
even Hummer H3 with 3.7 weighs 2231 kg with 245hp = 9,1 kg/hp
The only difference between Liberty and Patriot is the extra torque of Liberty due to bigger engine.
I hope that real world will verify my assumption based on paper numbers
PS1. That's a very simplistic approach (a wrong final drive ratio could kill all the benefits of good kg/hp analogy) but anyway a true one.
PS2. My only concern is that most of the pundit's reviews dislike the CVT and it's performance
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CVT may be great but not for me
I can only say that I was opposed to the idea of CVT so much that I never even considered it.First of all if CVT would be such a great idea then it would be widely used on other vehicles as well and it's not. Secondly I could alwas see some rubber belts in my transmission getting loose and sliping tranny issn't in a plan for me.And thirdly I hear from many that have actually test driven the CVT that it feels like driving an electric streetcar.
I think that unless you do lots of city driving where you stop and go all the time than the standart gearing is a much better choice.
Yes,CVT may be great but not for me.
I can only say that I was opposed to the idea of CVT so much that I never even considered it.First of all if CVT would be such a great idea then it would be widely used on other vehicles as well and it's not. Secondly I could alwas see some rubber belts in my transmission getting loose and sliping tranny issn't in a plan for me.And thirdly I hear from many that have actually test driven the CVT that it feels like driving an electric streetcar.
I think that unless you do lots of city driving where you stop and go all the time than the standart gearing is a much better choice.
Yes,CVT may be great but not for me.
how does it drive?
It doesn't drive like a streetcar - it drives like a motorboat. Under light throttle, there is a very traditional and familiar relationship between the movement of your right foot, the engine note and the motion of the vehicle. But, like a boat, if you are underway and suddenly wish to briskly accelerate, your foot goes down, the engine note comes up (alarmingly, when you are new to it) and the vehicle doesn't seem to actually respond. Unlike a regular transmission with a planetary set of gears, there's no "kickdown" feel, no sudden lunge, very little to indicate that the gas pedal is anything but a volume control.
Then you realize that the speedometer indicates that you are rapidly accelerating, and still, the engine soundl like it is doing something not directly related to that acceleration - odd, indeed.
I think we'll get used to it. The same way we got used to the idea (although it took 5 decades) that wheelspin doesn't indicate rocket-like acceleration or excessive engine power, just bad chassis dynamics. We'll eventually learn that the kickdown lunge is just drama - it is not necessary for (and in some cases is detrimental to) acceleration.
It doesn't drive like a streetcar - it drives like a motorboat. Under light throttle, there is a very traditional and familiar relationship between the movement of your right foot, the engine note and the motion of the vehicle. But, like a boat, if you are underway and suddenly wish to briskly accelerate, your foot goes down, the engine note comes up (alarmingly, when you are new to it) and the vehicle doesn't seem to actually respond. Unlike a regular transmission with a planetary set of gears, there's no "kickdown" feel, no sudden lunge, very little to indicate that the gas pedal is anything but a volume control.
Then you realize that the speedometer indicates that you are rapidly accelerating, and still, the engine soundl like it is doing something not directly related to that acceleration - odd, indeed.
I think we'll get used to it. The same way we got used to the idea (although it took 5 decades) that wheelspin doesn't indicate rocket-like acceleration or excessive engine power, just bad chassis dynamics. We'll eventually learn that the kickdown lunge is just drama - it is not necessary for (and in some cases is detrimental to) acceleration.
chassis dynamics
Funny story, BTW. I heard many years ago that when Chrysler was designing the first LHS, the test group thought it was underpowered and slow, even though the instrumented testing showed it was near the top of the pack in comparative acceleration. Apparently, they had developed the chassis dymanics to such a degree that the car's behavior became boring, and they were forced to reverse-engineer back into the car some of the old "drama" like acceleration squat and braking nose dive so that drivers wouldn't get the impression that the car was so smooth because it wasn't doing anything.
Maybe they'll do this with the Patriot. There are some CVTs that have "ratio settings" set as defaults, so drivers feel that they are more connected to what's happening under the hood...
Funny story, BTW. I heard many years ago that when Chrysler was designing the first LHS, the test group thought it was underpowered and slow, even though the instrumented testing showed it was near the top of the pack in comparative acceleration. Apparently, they had developed the chassis dymanics to such a degree that the car's behavior became boring, and they were forced to reverse-engineer back into the car some of the old "drama" like acceleration squat and braking nose dive so that drivers wouldn't get the impression that the car was so smooth because it wasn't doing anything.
Maybe they'll do this with the Patriot. There are some CVTs that have "ratio settings" set as defaults, so drivers feel that they are more connected to what's happening under the hood...
The reason its not widely used on many other vehicles is because so many people are opposed to it simply because its differant than what their used to. It like the old architects Ive worked with who still seem to think that drawing with a pencil is better than autocad, when its really that they are opposed to the new technology that they dont really understand. Or the old attorneys I work with who have to do all thier research by book instead of on the computer even though the computer search all 100x more effiecent. As people start to get used to the idea of CVTs they will be in more and more cars, and eventually I am sure they will out number traditional transmissions.
People who have a problem with the fact it doesnt shift or as you put it "feels like an electric street cars" are like the people who dont like to use computers cause "that's not the way they used to do it". You actually lose alot of momentum and power when a transmission shift,s so CVTs are actually faster than regular transmissions because they apply power in the perfect ratio as opposed to traveling through the optimal powerband. People just arnt used to car that doesnt shift.
It amazes me that people think that a couple of pulleys is likely to be more problematic than a complex set of mechanical gears. It is a basic concept of mechanics that the simplier the machine the less problematic. There are few moving parts interacting in a CVT. With a traditional trnasmission you can easily shave gears and have bits of metal reaking havok, among many other things that can go wrong.
The idea that a CVT is only going to benifit you with alot of city driving isnt accurate. Because a CVT can vary the ratio and a traditional transmission has a fixed ratio, it is possible to get far lower rpms during highway crusing than a traditional transmission, especially at higher speeds.
Just don't know
For me the purchase of a new vehicle is a big deal. The next vehicle I buy will take me into retirement and I will need to keep it for quite a while. It will also replace my Neon with automatic that gets 40mpg highway, and my Toyota truck with manual which gets 31.5 mpg.
For my only car I would like to have an automatic. I would realy like to have a Patriot for its form and function, but I am leary of both reliability of CVT and am disapointed by the gas milage with that transmission. Many conventional automatics get within 1mpg of their manual counterparts, some get the same milage and one gets better with the auto than the manual! I am afraid that Jeep's claim that they chose the CVT for better gas milage than a conventional automatic does not stand up to the facts.
Since my knees are not getting any younger, and the CVT does not appeal to me, I think I will either wait a year or two to see if jeep will offer a conventional automatic, or I will need to consider an Chevy HHR or a PT Cruiser.
But dang it, I would realy like a Patriot the most.
For me the purchase of a new vehicle is a big deal. The next vehicle I buy will take me into retirement and I will need to keep it for quite a while. It will also replace my Neon with automatic that gets 40mpg highway, and my Toyota truck with manual which gets 31.5 mpg.
For my only car I would like to have an automatic. I would realy like to have a Patriot for its form and function, but I am leary of both reliability of CVT and am disapointed by the gas milage with that transmission. Many conventional automatics get within 1mpg of their manual counterparts, some get the same milage and one gets better with the auto than the manual! I am afraid that Jeep's claim that they chose the CVT for better gas milage than a conventional automatic does not stand up to the facts.
Since my knees are not getting any younger, and the CVT does not appeal to me, I think I will either wait a year or two to see if jeep will offer a conventional automatic, or I will need to consider an Chevy HHR or a PT Cruiser.
But dang it, I would realy like a Patriot the most.
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