FD1 vs FD2 How capable is FD1 really?

Tony1911 · Apr 13, 2010

Unless your FDI can overcome a cross-axle hang-up situation, that point about the BLD is fairly trivial, don't you think?

Tyler-98-W68 · Apr 13, 2010

I jacked up the one side of my jeep to test the brake lock differential function on my FDII pat.

First video is in the Low + 4x4 Locked FDII Mode

As you can see the computer doesn't let much difference in speed between the wheels.

This video shows how the pat reacts with 4x4 unlocked and in [D] effectively how FD1"s are. I also tried it in locked 4x4 in [D] didn't video it but the results were the same.

As you can see there is no BLD that kicks in, however if the speed gets alot higher it will kick in (i've experienced it kicking in just not on the jacks)

Will H · Apr 13, 2010

Sometimes the ability of knowing how to drive in off road conditions are a far better asset. Just get out and learn how to read the terrian and pick the correct line helps alot.

Like an old saying that we use "It's not the arrow It's the indian"

heckler · Apr 13, 2010

stev0 said:
2 cars, same trail, where would you run into trouble with the FD1?

Two FDII's left a CVT FDI at the bottom of a rough steep gravel road (25 degrees?). He wasn't able to drive up what we crawled up in Low. Actually, I think the other FDII wasn't even in Low, but I was.

heckler · Apr 13, 2010

and another friend with a 5sp FDI burned out his clutch really nicely (stinky!) driving up a steep logging road with waterbars. He had to feather the clutch too much to drive slowly through waterbars that were threatening his underside.

heckler · Apr 13, 2010

if you plan to go off road in the mountains, I'd stick with FDII. If you're offroad in flatlands, either FDI will perform very well, but I'd prefer a 5 speed over the CVT.

Afmcronnie · Apr 14, 2010

Tony1911 said:
Unless your FDI can overcome a cross-axle hang-up situation, that point about the BLD is fairly trivial, don't you think?

Well, Tony, first, I would try very hard to NOT get into that situation with my FDI, knowing it's limitations. When as I'm trying very hard to avoid that "Cross-axle hang up" I don't think the fact that the FDI DOES have a "De-tuned" version of the BLD would be trivial at all. In fact, I would categorize it as "Confidence inspiring".

cdrift · Apr 14, 2010

the five speed is good off-road, but as heckler said you cannot crawl with it. I plan to remedy this by getting some rro sliders and skid plates, at least with these if I hit anything my underside will be protected. You cannot feather the clutch to go slow over obsticals otherwise you will get a very big bill. You just have to leave the clutch alone and use the gas and brake, keep the engine above 800 rpm and it will not stall. It might go a little fast for some people, but if you tap the brakes the idle speed will go down. I've noticed that when you start the patriot that the Idle is at 1200 rpm, so your idle crawl will be faster if you had just started the jeep. In short the fdI 5-speed is capable, but has some challenges to get through.

Tony1911 · Apr 14, 2010

Afmcronnie: Err... You may try, but with not much articulation, it's pretty much bound to happen at some point. Depending on what sort of terrain you drive in, of course, but we are talking about off-roading here. I've posted that one picture of me getting stuck going up a little hill due to two wheels losing traction before. In that situation you can say you will try not to lose traction, but when the trail is simply that uneven, there just isn't much you can do. And you can't just go around the hill either, not without making a whole new trail... (Hope you brought your chainsaw!) Going over the hill the other way was very easy, so you may not always notice such problems before hand either. (This was a trail that looped back on itself, so the only way out was over that hill... The real lesson here is of course: plan on how to make a recovery beforehand. Getting stuck is a part of off-roading, it happens to everyone.)

Seeing as how the FDI basically acts as an open differentials vehicle - in other words, seeing as how that "de-tuned BLD" does not actually help in this situation at all, I fail to see how it inspires confidence? The end result will still be you spinning two wheels and not going anywhere.

Afmcronnie · Apr 14, 2010

Tony1911 said:

Afmcronnie: Err... You may try, but with not much articulation, it's pretty much bound to happen at some point.

Click to expand...

Tony1911 said:
Tony,
I guess I don't get your point regarding "articulation". Articulation is a function of suspension travel, and the fact that the FDII has 1" more ground clearance (which I assume translates into 1" more travel) would not, by itself, result in a dramatic difference in off-road capability.

Seeing as how the FDI basically acts as an open differentials vehicle - in other words, seeing as how that "de-tuned BLD" does not actually help in this situation at all, I fail to see how it inspires confidence? The end result will still be you spinning two wheels and not going anywhere.

Again, there is basically no difference in the axles between the two vehicles. The BLD on the FDII is programmed more aggressively, designed to engage with less initial wheelspin. What makes the FDII more capable off-road is the gearing. A lower gearset in the axles and CVT. Heckler and CD stated the problem precisley, the FDII doesn't have the low-end grunt to crawl. It's not designed to crawl over obstacles. As I stated earlier, the differences in the suspension are minimal.

APT · Apr 14, 2010

heckler said:
Actually, I think the other FDII wasn't even in Low, but I was.

Just because a FDII Patirot has PRNDL in low does not mean it is using lowest trans gear ratio. Just because a non FDII CVT Patriot is not in low or 1st does not mean it is not using the lowest gear ratio. For your situation, both your vehicles were probably in the lowest gear ratio.

OP,

There will always be some trail a FDII will tackle that a FDI will not. There will always be a trail where a FDII won't make it. You never know until you try and trying it is the whole point of off roading. Run what you brung and prepare for the worst regardless of what you decide.

The FDII package is cheap for the equipment you get if you plan to purchase aftermarket. It's about $700 if you wanted the aluminum wheels and the CVT. Personally, I like manual trans in most my vehicles. In a Patriot, that means about $1700 and 20% FE hit. It would not be worth it to me. For $1700, I can buy (and have) a great ATV to play with off road.

dixiedawg · Apr 14, 2010

The driver is probably the most important factor in off roading. But skid plates, tow hooks, a little more clearance, and recovery points are also good to have. Going with others that know the trail, and have experience would be good for anyone going their first couple of times.

Rskitall · Apr 14, 2010

I have a FDI and I have gone out 5 miles on logging roads with some nice size water bars (hate those things).I don't know if I need to but I lock it in 4wd and put it on partial ESP.

I have pulled a trailer full of heavy a** tamarack up the logging roads just fine. It is funny when I come off the logging road and there are people there and I get that stare like WTF how did he go up there.

My first time out there I thought I was stuck but then I remembered reading this website and turning off ESP and I got right out

homac · Apr 15, 2010

I see a bit of miss info.

I would not get a CVT unless you purchase with the "Trail Rated" FDII version.

If you are comparing the FDII Trail Rated vs a FDI 4WD/4X4 the differences are basically the gearing ratio and hill decent control.

There are many other differences, however you can purchase them after the fact. You cannot change the gear ratio or add the hill decent control (unless you spend way too much money).

stev0 said:
As the question suggests, how capable is the regular FD 1 if you compare it to the FD 2 models?

Id obviously choose a FD2 car if it was available, but its not. So I have no choice but to choose the FD1 car.

2 cars, same trail, where would you run into trouble with the FD1?

Seeing as the FD2 is not a real low transfer case, how much lower can it really be compared to a real case.

Tony1911 · Apr 15, 2010

Afmcronnie said:
I guess I don't get your point regarding "articulation". Articulation is a function of suspension travel, and the fact that the FDII has 1" more ground clearance (which I assume translates into 1" more travel) would not, by itself, result in a dramatic difference in off-road capability.

No, the articulation between the two vehicles is about the same - my point was what happens when two opposing wheels lose traction. An FDI will not go any further, period. An FDII with its BLD programming can keep going even with two wheels entirely in the air, as we've seen several times in videos.

The man asked where on a trail an FDI would run into trouble where an FDII would keep going. That's my answer - when the wheels start lifting.

Although, the lower gearing does help too... But without personal experience, it is difficult to say how big a difference that makes.

APT said:
There will always be some trail a FDII will tackle that a FDI will not. There will always be a trail where a FDII won't make it. You never know until you try and trying it is the whole point of off roading. Run what you brung and prepare for the worst regardless of what you decide.

Well said!

homac said:
I would not get a CVT unless you purchase with the "Trail Rated" FDII version.

I would. In fact, did. For me, the idea of off-roading a manual transmission vehicle without a low-range makes my left knee ache just thinking about it... (Not that my choice was entirely based on just off-roading - I simply wanted to get rid of that damn clutch pedal.) Can't be too healthy for the clutch either.

Tyler-98-W68 · Apr 15, 2010

Another thought about the gearing and BLD's, the patriot doesn't have very much torque, and the extra "low" ratio will help on the FDII when the agressive BLD kicks in. If the BLD was as agressive on the FDI patriots it would probably not work well due to less torque multiplication from the higher gear ratio.

If you never really plan to get into trails that have lots of articulation, then a FDI will probably work for you, but FDII is a good deal for the money as others have stated before. IMO the difference in gas mileage is not much of an issue, might work out to 2-3$ per tank of gas, something i'm sure most people could afford.

dixiedawg · Apr 15, 2010

It is funny when I come off the logging road and there are people there and I get that stare like WTF how did he go up there.

You should see the looks I get when I hit the top of the hill in winter and jump onto the snow mobile trail. Those folks on sleds look at me like I'm crazy. Well, most of them are used to me now, but I still get some looks. But there's not much I can do, part of my road is part of the county trail.

UA_who · Apr 15, 2010

Here in the desert, we don't deal with mud. We rarely deal with snow. We rarely have to cross fallen logs or comparable obstacles.

Our issues are loose rocks, gravel, steep rutted roads, sandy dry washes, and narrow spaces. For me, the lower gearing and higher torque available are critical. You have to be able to crawl slowly.

rcguymike · Mar 6, 2013

thread is dead but as an update

Just so newer buyers dont get lead astray...From my research the newer ('13 for sure)patriots all have BLD but the FDII is more aggressive in low range off-road mode. In drive everything is identical except for skidplates, tow hooks, alloy wheels, and a few other physical devices. The off-road capability in drive is identical, just not as protected and if you get a FDI stuck there are no tow points. Cross axle situations are navigable.

aroundincircles · Mar 6, 2013

You don't get hill decent control, BLD is a part of the traction control, and all patriots have traction control. and you don't get the low range. Those are big differences.

(Edit: I did some internet searches. I can't find anywhere that says the FDI has BLD, but I do see it everywhere for FDII, I don't believe it gets BLD. On the FDII models its not even engaged until you are in L, which is only available on the FDII)

FD1 vs FD2 How capable is FD1 really?

Tony1911

Tyler-98-W68

Will H

heckler

heckler

heckler

Afmcronnie

cdrift

Tony1911

Afmcronnie

APT

dixiedawg

Rskitall

homac

Tony1911

Tyler-98-W68

dixiedawg

UA_who

rcguymike

aroundincircles

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