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expeditionswest

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I am sure you all want to know how the Patriot does on the trail.

I have a month in the Freedom Drive II units and have tested them in everything from rocks to 12" deep snow. I have been so impressed that I spent a few hours today compiling my images and producing a technical review on the Patriot. Let me know if you have any questions.

Technical Trail Report (Wayback machine)
 
Now thats what I'm talking about. Thats a great piece. Thank you for such a great article and truly putting the jeep to the test. Loved the Pics and the time taken to capture so many.

Now can my POS Ford hold out till the FDII come out.
 
ExpeditionWest,

I have several questions you may be able to answer:

1.) In your opinion, what is the limiting factor in the Patriot. In other words, what is the first thing to fail on the trails? Lack of torque, lack of ground clearance, traction, etc?

2.) Is it possible to add a lift to this vehicle, even though it has already been lifted 1"? If so, how much do you think this would have increased its performance? If it had a 2.5 - 3" lift would it have made it through the snow covered course that required a winch?

3.) Compare this vehicle to the current Liberty. Also, Grand Vitara...

4.) Is this vehicle worth modifying? Lift kit, bigger tires, new fender (approach angle/winch), K&N air filter...etc?

5.) Lastly, would this vehicle work with an ARB locker?
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
ExpeditionWest,

I have several questions you may be able to answer:

1.) In your opinion, what is the limiting factor in the Patriot. In other words, what is the first thing to fail on the trails? Lack of torque, lack of ground clearance, traction, etc?
Gearing. Either adding a helical LSD in the rear or deeper CVT gearing (or both) would be the next step for the platform. Anything else and it would create a cascading series of compromises, like reduced economy, poor handling, etc.

Even though it is best in class, it is still a 4cyl powered cross-over SUV. For what it is, I am very impressed with the overall balance of trail performance, economy and handling.

2.) Is it possible to add a lift to this vehicle, even though it has already been lifted 1"? If so, how much do you think this would have increased its performance? If it had a 2.5 - 3" lift would it have made it through the snow covered course that required a winch?
-- It has struts on all corners. Adding new (longer) springs would be easy to do, but remember the limits of IFS. As you gain height, you are only increasing compression travel at the cost of extension travel. Fortunately, the Patriot suspension design does have good travel numbers, so another 1" of lift would be a good fit, especially if the spring rate was consistent with the load you carried.

-- Additional lift would not have affected the winch recovery. The hill was at the limits of traction with the snow. It was safer for the vehicle to pull cable and with the falling snow, I knew there was still miles of terrain to cover.

3.) Compare this vehicle to the current Liberty. Also, Grand Vitara...?
-- The liberty has a V6 and true low-range, but no better maneuverability or dimensions. Liberty has good aftermarket support. The Liberty has a slight trail advantage, but much less economy and road performance.

-- I like the new Grand Vitara, but it has none of the skid plates and over 1" less ground clearance. The engine and drivetrain really push it into a different classification (lower fuel economy too).

-- The Patriot's competition is in the economy, cross-over segment, which includes the CRV, RAV4, Tucson, Escape, etc.

4.) Is this vehicle worth modifying? Lift kit, bigger tires, new fender (approach angle/winch), K&N air filter...etc?
-- Sure! If I had one, I would add light duty rock sliders, a rack, front and rear (exhaust) skid plates and slightly larger tires. Maybe a 1" lift. I would keep the modifications simple and just enjoy the high-speed dirt performance and economy.

5.) Lastly, would this vehicle work with an ARB locker?
-- A helical LSD would be a better choice IMHO and allow for some mechanical advantage to the traction control. I use ARB's in all of my vehicles, but the modification market will be too small for ARB to play here. Helical diff's and traction control is a sweet combo.
 
Thanks for the review and great pics!!....I notice that the Khaki colored Patriot didn't have a trail rated badge while the green and black one did....

1. ...just wondering if you are you able to notice the 1 inch difference in ground clearance between the trail rated and non trail rated Patriot when you are looking at them with the naked eye?

2. ....was there a huge difference in real world performance between the trail rated and non trail rated Patriot?
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Not to bother you with another question, but how would you say this compares to a stock 1997-2001 Jeep Cherokee/ XJ off roading and overall?
This is a great question. I am a huge fan of the XJ, for many reasons (looks, functionality, weight, etc.).

There is a 20 year contrast in technology, and I would take the Patriot in stock form. The performance (handling), economy, comfort, dampening and most importantly- safety (SRS, side impact, ESP) are light years ahead.

Just spend ten minutes on a corrugated road and you will be a believer :)

There are also times when the Patriot will outperform the XJ on the trail. In crossed axle terrain (traction control) and at high speed.

But, the Cherokee has endless aftermarket support, and can be made into any flavor you want, from a JeepSpeed SCORE truck to a 4+ Rock Crawler, and anything in between.

If you want pure trail performance, buy and mod the XJ. For the other 99% of driving most people do, buy the Patriot. The Patriot does the other 99% so much better.

I am a hopeless traditionalist when it comes to 4wds, but I really fell for the Patriot. It is a cross-over that looks good (functional) and can run 2-2.5 trails all day long with an experienced driver. Then get back on the highway and smile as you get 30 mpg with the seat warmers on and the Sat radio kicking out of the Boston Acoustic stereo :D
 
Adding new (longer) springs would be easy to do, but remember the limits of IFS. As you gain height, you are only increasing compression travel at the cost of extension travel. Fortunately, the Patriot suspension design does have good travel numbers, so another 1" of lift would be a good fit, especially if the spring rate was consistent with the load you carried.
Can you explain this concept to me...I don't understand.
 
-- A helical LSD would be a better choice IMHO and allow for some mechanical advantage to the traction control. I use ARB's in all of my vehicles, but the modification market will be too small for ARB to play here. Helical diff's and traction control is a sweet combo.
How do these helical LSD's work in the snow and ice? I thought I read somewhere that it takes an experienced driver to keep a vehicle under control with a limited-slip in icy conditions.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Independent front suspensions operate within a range, from compression jounce (bump stop) to extension (limited by jounce or shock length).

There are essentially three dimension you work with:

Compressed measurement
Extension (full droop) measurement
Static ride height

For example, lets say the Patriot has 8" of total suspension range, from compression to full extension. The static ride height is usually somewhere in the middle, typically favoring more compression.

If you add a longer spring, you only change the static ride height variable, as the compression and extension limits of the suspension are still the same (and expensive to modify).

So if you start out with 3" of extension and 4" of compression and you want to add 1" of lift, you end up with 5" of compression and 2" of extension as the basic suspension limits have not changed.

Too many people do not know this limit of independent suspensions, and they end up with a poor riding vehicle (with no extension travel left).

Just remember, ever inch of additional ride height will cost you an inch of extension travel, unless other suspension modifications are made, but then you start to reach the limits of the CV axles operating range (angle of operation).

Hope this helped
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
How do these helical LSD's work in the snow and ice? I thought I read somewhere that it takes an experienced driver to keep a vehicle under control with a limited-slip in icy conditions.
They work great in the rear as they only respond to heavy wheel speed differentiation (one wheel must start to clock different to cause the helical gears to ride up against the case walls). I would not recommend them for the front due to understeer issues.

With 4wd and ESP, a helical geared LSD in the rear would be a hot ticket on snow and ice.
 
Great testing and great report, ExpeditionsWest. Glad to see the "Deep Sand" part, as that's been my biggest concern as love to surf fish. Seen lots of drivers and lots of vehicles that did great elsewhere but couldn't make it in the sand.
If it did fine at street tire pressure, it should definitely be ok dropped down to 18-20 PSI on the shore. Thanks again. Guess I'm sold!
 
Then get back on the highway and smile as you get 30 mpg with the seat warmers on and the Sat radio kicking out of the Boston Acoustic stereo :D
Hello ExpeditionsWest -

Thks for the comprehensive review. I am considering this puppy. One thing though - doesn't the trail rated version of the Patriot get substantially less mileage per gallon than the standard FWD? I thought I read somewhere that it's rated at 21/23 vs 26/30 for the FWD manual. Unfortunately that seems the norm with ORVs - less miles per gallon.

GB
 
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