DON'T BUY THE CVT FOR OFF ROAD!!!

JeepFan · Jul 16, 2007

cjhike said:
I had a similar problem, check this thread out.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

It is simply the limitations of the vehicle.

Thank you!! I was looking for that thread. I have also seen another where they (some magazine) had some trouble taking a Pat through sand, and others had no trouble at all (in fact even praising it's abilities).

It is my yet to be proven belief, that some Patriots have their transmission/engine controls programmed improperly. Possibly some sort of torque sensor thinking it's controlling a CVT instead of a CVTL2 and improperly shutting down the transmission of engine power to the CVT to avoid damage.

The CVTL2 with it's 19:1 drive ratio shuld have no trouble with steep hills, logs, rocks, deep snow, and anything else save perhaps brick walls.

Indeed, most testers find that it doesn't as per Expeditions West.

There is at least one technical service bulletin having to do with percieved poor performance. It takes perhaps 30 minutes to reprogram the control units.

Anynoe having similar troubles with the trail rated Patriot should:

1) Make sure the proper transmission was installed at the factory.

2) Make sure the latest software has been installed.

frosty · Jul 16, 2007

Dawson,

Sorry you have had some trouble on the trails....as for my own experience off-road with my FDII....it has been all good....wish you would have taken some pics at the trouble spot....might help with better suggestions....

Hydronaut · Jul 16, 2007

I had my FDII on some ATV trails near a buddies cottage and was able to climb some fairly steep sandy/muddy hills. We managed to climb some other obstacles that were fairly deeply pitted and scattered with rocks. I will post some pics once he sends them to me.

I would not have able to do most of this without the 19:1 gear ratio.

I did incure a bit of minor scraping on the frame and took off a fair amount of the factory undercoating. The skid plates took a bit of a beating too.

Pics of scrapes

I think height is the major limiting factor. I am lucky I didn't scrape the sides of the Jeep. I think a pair of rock sliders will be next.

Overall I was very happy the way it performed. And for anybody who expects not to incur any damage while off-road, they are fooling themselves.

Dawson · Jul 16, 2007

cjhike said:
I had a similar problem, check this thread out.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

It is simply the limitations of the vehicle.

I really wish people would quit saying it is a limitation... That simply doesn't help. Especially the thread about being stuck in a foot of snow. I will say it again; I was on a MODERATE hill with a base of packed dirt and not much for rocks (maybe 1-2") where it would not go. Actually, were it stopped, there were no rocks.

And seriously, if you paid what I did for a trail rated Jeep and were in this situation, you would be pissed if this WAS the limitation. It's ludicrous. Quit the limitations card!!!! My 97 Legacy GT would have made it up that hill with less hp and torque.

As for the programming stuff, I had my Jeep Shop Foreman buddy run my ride and found no bulletins etc. I will be discussing this with the dealer on Wednesday evening.

JeepFan · Jul 16, 2007

I think some people have accepted what they call a limitation where they actually have a deeper problem. Have your dealer service department run this TSB to see that your modules are up to date: http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/Caliber/TSB/Caliber_1803107.pdf

See if you can arrange to drive or test drive some other FDII model to see if it has the same problem. Most do not.

johng27 · Jul 16, 2007

"My 97 Legacy GT would have made it up that hill with less hp and torque."

Subies are amazing. During certain snow storms my Wrangler would struggle to get out of the driveway sometimes while my wife would have no problem in her outback. Do not get me wrong - you can NOT do anything extreme in a stock Subaru. But for real word situations they can not be beat. With that being said - whenever she drives my Patriot she says she wants one. Go figure.

Dawson · Jul 17, 2007

YAY

JeepFan said:
I think some people have accepted what they call a limitation where they actually have a deeper problem. Have your dealer service department run this TSB to see that your modules are up to date: http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/Caliber/TSB/Caliber_1803107.pdf

See if you can arrange to drive or test drive some other FDII model to see if it has the same problem. Most do not.

Something that might help!!! Thanks.

I looked for 2004 GT before the Patriot, but I'm glad I got the Patriot, love the off-roading.

nearly.normal.jimmy · Jul 17, 2007

This might be a crazy idea, but how far away where you?
Any chance the dealer would let you take (knowing or not) a different Pat set up the same out there and try it again?

Make some comparisons and narrow down 'limitation' or 'random defect'...

jhwygirl · Jul 17, 2007

Thanks (and sorry to hear) Dawson

If I could take this thing back I would. I would get a 5 speed and make it trail rated on my own.

My Grand Cherokee has FDI - and it has served me extremely well. I like feeling 'connected' with the road - so when I decided it was time for a new vehicle (and I've been waiting for the Patriot since it was unveiled 2 years ago - or was it 3??) I knew I wanted a manual transmission. I didn't need FDII, and I figured I could add bigger wheels (stock tires suck anyways) and a skid plat and an engine/tranny cooler and have a really good off-road package without having to pay for chrome wheels, FDII, leather seats, etc. - all stuff I really didn't want.

I had a hell of a time getting a local dealer to even search for a manual for me - yet alone eliminate leather seats and chrome wheels - they only wanted to sell what they had on the lot.

I ended up having to go 150 miles to get a dealer to sell me what I wanted. I take deliver exactly one week from today.

epper:

I've had lots of people tell me that "Aww - I'da gotten the automatic" so, obviously, I have a little doubt going. I could be driving a trail-rated Patriot right now - which, for the last 8 weeks, it has been really tempting to just cry "uncle" and head to the dealer and get one. I went so far as to seriously consider it - having my brother take a test drive and do some negotiating (got it down to .5% over invoice!) - but common sense kicked in and I decided to be patient and wait for what was coming.

Glad I am.

Sorry to hear about your woes, though.

rubicontrail.net · Jul 17, 2007

jhwygirl said:
My Grand Cherokee has FDI...

Wrong... no Grand Cherokees had Freedom Drive.

See: http://www.jeep.com/4x4/index.html

Grand Cherokees (and Wranglers, Commanders, Libertys, Cherokees, etc.) come equipped with a traditional transmission / transfer case setup instead of a CVT setup.

A traditional transmission / transfer case will outperform a CVT in almost every situation. The Wrangler Rubicon's Rock-Trac system is likely the best rock-crawling 4WD system out there. The Commander and Grand Cherokee's QuadraDrive II system is probably the best overall 4WD system out there -- able to handle the highway fine and pull itself out of nearly any sticky situation you can throw at it. The CVT was used on the Patriot and Compass for fuel savings only.

MrSensible · Jul 17, 2007

Been saying it right along

I know you don't want to hear it, but certainly consider it a limitation of the CVT based trans. Don't forget this is a BELT based system. In this case, from the specs I read it is an "armored" belt, but a belt none-the-less.

If it breaks, your stuck and it could do a lot of damage. If it starts to slip, it could do a lot of damage. They have to have failsafes built into the control codes to stop that from happening.

There maybe a bug in the code where the failsafe kicks in prematurely, but there is a point where if you apply too much torque and the wheels can't turn... snap, bang.

They should be able to tap into the system and get the event codes of the incident, but it's probably too late for that now. If your "buddy" didn't want to do that, maybe he isn't really your buddy and you need to find a different dealer.

Let's also remember the the tried and true wisdom that there is no free lunch. I really think that at the very least you should have bought the 5 speed, or if you really wanted a mountain goat, a Liberty or a Wrangler.

Caveat Emptor man, Caveat Emptor.

hunter44102 · Jul 17, 2007

For those that are worried about the CVT, Nissan has switched almost all their vehicles to CVT. The Murano, Maxima, Altima, etc.

Nissan has stated that CVT is the way of the future and they will be the first Mfgr to switch all their vehicles over. They claim they will be the first to sell 1 Million vehicles with CVT's.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/050228-01.html

So the technology may be new, but companies are showing confidence in them and changing their vehicles to use the new technology.

As for offroading and torque, I think like others have stated, the programming may limit what the CVT can do, but it should be able to do the stated torque in the specifications (166lbs for the Patriot). If 166lbs isn't enough, then you have to get a vehicle with larger engine and stronger transmission.

rubicontrail.net · Jul 17, 2007

hunter44102 said:
Nissan has stated that CVT is the way of the future and they will be the first Mfgr to switch all their vehicles over. They claim they will be the first to sell 1 Million vehicles with CVT's.

They plan to switch their pickups and vehicles like the Armada over to CVT too? That ought to be amusing/interesting.

CVT is hardly the wave of the future... it's been used in light-duty tractors for years. Vehicles like the Tomcar use the CVT. Those usually use a chain-drive CVT which is noisier but much more rugged. The belt driven CVTs have their limitations... especially when it comes to off-road abuse, hauling heavy loads, or other high torque applications.

tcperconti · Jul 17, 2007

I love the CVT in my Patriot. As the CVT becomes more popular and put in more vehicles we should hopefully see some advanced CVT programming options available. Driving stop-n-go in the city? Press a button to engage "city mode" CVT programming. Taking a trip on the open highway for a few 100 miles? Press another button to engage "highway mode" CVT programming.

I've experienced this "split personality" (but to a lesser degree) with the Patriot. And that is with a set/fixed program.

srothfuss · Jul 17, 2007

I think a CVT in every car is a fantastic idea. Smaller and more effeceint than any traditional transaxle ever could dream of being. But that is besides the point. This thread was drafted to determine if the CVT of the FDII, on this particular Patroit, is defective or to deduce a problem in the programing of the transmission module.

Going up a moderate hill and stopping, then not being able to continue is most defenintly not a thing any Jeep product should be known for. "Trail rated or not." any car should be able to climb a slight grade on moderatly solid soil.

tcperconti · Jul 17, 2007

srothfuss said:
Going up a moderate hill and stopping, then not being able to continue is most defenintly not a thing any Jeep product should be known for. "Trail rated or not." any car should be able to climb a slight grade on moderatly solid soil.

Exactly. It seems obvious (at least to me) that the OP's experience is due to a defect and not a flaw in the design.

Dawson · Jul 17, 2007

MrSensible said:
I know you don't want to hear it, but certainly consider it a limitation of the CVT based trans. Don't forget this is a BELT based system. In this case, from the specs I read it is an "armored" belt, but a belt none-the-less.

If it breaks, your stuck and it could do a lot of damage. If it starts to slip, it could do a lot of damage. They have to have failsafes built into the control codes to stop that from happening.

There maybe a bug in the code where the failsafe kicks in prematurely, but there is a point where if you apply too much torque and the wheels can't turn... snap, bang.

They should be able to tap into the system and get the event codes of the incident, but it's probably too late for that now. If your "buddy" didn't want to do that, maybe he isn't really your buddy and you need to find a different dealer.

Let's also remember the the tried and true wisdom that there is no free lunch. I really think that at the very least you should have bought the 5 speed, or if you really wanted a mountain goat, a Liberty or a Wrangler.

Caveat Emptor man, Caveat Emptor.

Argh.... My "buddy" has been a friend for 14 years! Oh, and did I forget to mention that he lives in DETROIT, and I'm in DENVER. Ass. Seriously, get a grip. Keep your Patriot on the road where you think it belongs and keep your uneducated opinions to yourself. (yes, you did deserve that)

As I've stated; I understand how the CVT works and the protection systems. As others have stated, with the L range and crawl ratio, it should not act like a regular CVT and should have made it up the hill that all other stock Jeeps could, and the competition.

No grudges here, my friend.

johnda · Jul 18, 2007

Anybody else have any friendly suggestions for Mr. Dawson? I sure don't.

Dawson · Jul 18, 2007

Hey, thanks to everyone who had a helpful suggestion, I'll be looking in to some of these things when I speak with my Dealer this evening. I also received the standard blah, blah, blah email and apology from Jeep. I emailed them back asking when someone would have an answer to the problem. We'll see.

I think we learned a lesson here, if you don't understand the problem, you should leave it alone. I would never jump on anyone here to push the easy way out, especially when the easy answer was made clearly not the case! I apologize if I've offended anyone, but in this case, support was needed, not pessimism.

srothfuss · Jul 18, 2007

No, I think we are all ok... Just part of the site's "growing up" stages. There are two real issues that I see and one additional:

1) We should stay on topic in threads. It's hard to accomplish anything when we all go in circles and snap back and forth.

2) Only a small grouping of users (2) have experienced this problem so far. So the knowledge base isn't established... For those that blaze the trail first, it's hardest but you at least get credit for years to come about getting the issue resolved

3) I don't have a Patriot so I don't know what I'm talking about.

Get on the horn with the folks at Jeep and tell them your thoughts about the "trail rated" badge on the side of your brand new Jeep. They should come out and experience the problem first hand and then be able to diagnose and solve in a short amount of time.

DON'T BUY THE CVT FOR OFF ROAD!!!

JeepFan

frosty

Hydronaut

Dawson

JeepFan

johng27

Dawson

nearly.normal.jimmy

jhwygirl

rubicontrail.net

MrSensible

hunter44102

rubicontrail.net

tcperconti

srothfuss

tcperconti

Dawson

johnda

Dawson

srothfuss

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