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so, in a nutshell, change the required transmission gears, and the required axle ratios, and i could replicate the FDII?
You could better the 19:1 ratio with the proper transmission and differential gears. FD2 diffs would drop right in, which would be cheaper then having them made, or making something else fit.
By the time you are done, you could have probably bought an old CJ or Land Cruiser already set up for off roading :)
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
You could better the 19:1 ratio with the proper transmission and differential gears. FD2 diffs would drop right in, which would be cheaper then having them made, or making something else fit.
By the time you are done, you could have probably bought an old CJ or Land Cruiser already set up for off roading :)
Yeah!! i'd hate to think of the cost involvement especially living here!!
Better off getting an ol cherokee and do it up, not many done up here.
 
You cannot change your transmission gear ratios. Here are the gear ratios for the 6-spd and the overall gear ratio (gear times diff)

1st gear 3,54:1 14.37:1
2nd gear 2,05:1 8.32:1
3rd gear 1,37:1 5.56:1
4th gear 0,97:1 3.94:1
5th gear 0,90:1 3.11:1
6th gear 0,79:1 2.73:1

You are suggesting changing the 6th gear to a numerically higher ratio, like 5,50:1. You just cannot do that. You can change the axle ratio such that first gear is the same as the FDII lowest gear combo. The desired gearing for a manual trans for low speed is probably different than automatic. You probably want even shorter for manual trans so that fully released clutch in 1st travels at 2mph or less. The Wranger Rubicon manual trans with 4:1 transfer case reduction is something like 40:1 and it can crawl over just about anything at idle with no clutch at 1mph over anything.

But this is all for fun because we just cannot change what mechanically needs to be changed to reduce gearing. The most effective way of reducing gearing we have is by using smaller tires, say a 21" tire instead of 28" tire would have the same effective gearing as the FDII. That's a little small for practicality because it also means less ground clearance.

Buy a beater Wrangler, old Land Cruiser or Land Rover for off roading.

BTW, I just noticed the 6-spd somehow has two axle ratios or what it calls final drive ratios. I wonder how that works....(time to search the www on this trans).
 
APT, you're making me feel sentimental.
My Rubicon (that I sold for my Pat BTW) was an automatic. In 4-low, at idle, you really have to press hard on the brakes to keep it from rolling forward. Take your foot off the brakes and gas completely, and it would roll over an 8" curb without a problem.

Now some of that is more torque from the inline 6-cyl, but mostly just the gearing.
 
Discussion starter · #25 · (Edited)
BTW, I just noticed the 6-spd somehow has two axle ratios or what it calls final drive ratios. I wonder how that works....(time to search the www on this trans).
Fantastic info Apt, truly appreciative of your input.

In the pdf it mentions two different ratios for gears 1-4 and 5-6.
Were you referring to this yeah?
 
FD2 diffs would drop right in
You know, this is a rather tempting thought... :) Except for the damage it does to highway travel capability. But even still, I wonder how much those differentials would cost... :)

Buy a beater Wrangler, old Land Cruiser or Land Rover for off roading.
While an old beater for more technical off-roading is a very good idea (the ridiculous prices even very used four wheel drive vehicles have in this country is a problem though... :icon_rolleyes: ), the Patriot shall remain our "light expedition rig" for the foreseeable future. Increasing its off-roadability while largely retaining its on-road abilities is something I find worthwhile.
 
I've noticed, over the few weeks that I've been on the site, that quite a few people have done modifications that have obviously cost a small fortune. These mods are nearly always to improve the Pat's off-road capabilities. I'm wondering why they're doing this.
With the market the way that it is in North America and in Europe you can pick up a second-hand dedicated off-roader with ferocious abilities, such as a Jeep Wrangler or a LR Defender for a bag of chips. With a vehicle such as this you can join an off-road or a greenlaning club with your head held high, knowing that if your vehicle couldn't get up an ice-face and then safely abseil down the other side it was only down to your inexperience. You'll have a whole new world of fun open to you, you'll find another social life among some of the wildest loopy-doops on this planet, you'll have a real work-horse of a vehicle that you won't mind messing up and, AND, your Pat will hold its price, plus, your mother-in-law won't be ashamed to get in it.
Come to think of it, that's an argument for doing what yous guys are doing and forgetting everything I just said....

Rocal
 
I understand what you guys are saying.

But the question is how????


In my opinion you cannot build a weapon for off roading and still retain the on road characteristics of a stock vehicle. Hell as soon as you just put new rims and bfg's you are changing it a great deal.


Jeeps are not purchased from a dealership but built in my opinion.

The Pat in my opinion is built by Jeep for a specific reason in their minds.
Road use with very limited off roading especially what we get here in the Pat specs.

Sure you and me are going to take it off road and test it a bit but we are not going to get far with a 40mm spacer lift and coopers or bfg’s.
It’s never going to take medium tracks without a transfer case and LO range. It’s never going to take on the Aussie out back or anything extreme.

No company like ARB are going to design springs, shocks, bars, diff locks etc.... for this vehicle.
I’ve spoke to guy’s who work for ARB here and in Melb and no chance they say.
Hell ARB have at present said there not interested in the KK at present also.

The Pat is a well designed day to day running machine to get you from home to work and back and some light work on the weekend.
Camping trips are ideal but other than that I do not think so.

You can not make the Pat into something that it can never be.

I love the Pat, it saves us a huge amount of money on fuel, comfy ride etc.. But for playing it stays home.

That’s just my 2 cents worth.
 
I understand what you guys are saying.

But the question is how????...The Pat in my opinion is built by Jeep for a specific reason in their minds.
Road use with very limited off roading especially what we get here in the Pat specs...The Pat is a well designed day to day running machine to get you from home to work and back and some light work on the weekend.
Camping trips are ideal but other than that I do not think so.

You can not make the Pat into something that it can never be.

I love the Pat, it saves us a huge amount of money on fuel, comfy ride etc.. But for playing it stays home.

That’s just my 2 cents worth.
I agree, but differ in degree a little. Yes the patriot is purpose built and the FDII is also purpose built. No it isn't built to handle extreme off road conditions or to take an extreme pounding.

I will fall back on my main points. The patriot can take you anywhere you need to go, but maybe not everywhere you want to go. Also I think folks need to purchase vehicles in order of capability. Increasingly I am convinced that if one owned a more capable off roader they should stay away from the patriot because they will not find it all that capable, and likewise folks buying their first jeep and venturing off road for the first time will find the patriot extremely capable.

We mostly agree, but my jeep doesn'tstay home on the weekends.
 
Discussion starter · #35 · (Edited)
folks buying their first jeep and venturing off road for the first time will find the patriot extremely capable.
I'm one of those folks:)

I know its limitations, and I never intend to climb rocks, BUT...

Everyone modifies landcruisers/patrols etc etc for what reason??
Why not the patriot? Why not make it more capable?
As for changing wheels and tyres, I intend on the stock wheels for everyday use, and bfg's for weekend trips.

Whats the difference between FDI and FDII. Low range. Same dimensions essentially other than height, but with a few add-ons which can be purchased and added on like other owners here (like tow hooks, skid plates etc)
My brother in law has a nissan navara, I'd love to do what he can (not EVERYTHING) but in my limited knowledge and experience the difference is height and low range?
I love the economy,shape and ease of everyday use of the patriot but what would really kick ass is increased capabilty while somewhat retaining these qualities.

Sure its not the most rugged and off-road weapon out there, but hell, the commodore cant do this!! :) hehe
 
With the market the way that it is in North America and in Europe you can pick up a second-hand dedicated off-roader with ferocious abilities, such as a Jeep Wrangler or a LR Defender for a bag of chips.
10 000 euros is "a bag of chips"? You must be a richer man than I am... (And yes, that's about the price of a Wrangler that is over 10 years old in Finland. Occasionally a bit less, often somewhat more.)

Also, you need to think of "off-roading" in wider terms. Not everything under the category of "off-road" is the same thing. Sure, a 20 year old beater is great to take to your local off-roading park and really push the envelope with it. If it breaks down, no biggie - worst case scenario, you need to call a taxi. But would you take that same vehicle for a 3500km road trip? (And with the gasoline prices in Finland, could you afford to?)

This, to me, is the Patriots role - a "light expedition rig". A vehicle that you can drive long distances with and still handle bad weather conditions on the way and the easier trails when you reach your destination. That in addition to being a daily driver, that is.

In my opinion you cannot build a weapon for off roading and still retain the on road characteristics of a stock vehicle. Hell as soon as you just put new rims and bfg's you are changing it a great deal.
A "great deal"? Come on now. It's not that huge a change, unless you go for significantly different tires than stock. Of course, that's the whole point in all modifications, isn't it. If you change the differential ratios a little, you get a lower crawl ratio that helps a lot on the trail but you still remain able to drive on the highway too. (Although with normal summer speeds, the engine RPMs are a bit of a concern. Still, the modification is interesting, as a lower crawl ratio would really help on the off-road side.) If you were to somehow create a 40:1 lowest overall ratio with that method, you'd have great crawling ability but you can forget about driving that vehicle on the road. So moderation is definitely a good thing to have, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with modifications that are within reason.

We are not talking about building an off-roading monster here. Just doing a few tweaks to make the vehicle a better compromise for our individual situations. After all, no company builds their products exactly to suit one particular person, but rather they build the best compromise they can come up with to as wide range of consumers as possible. Issues such as marketing, local availability etc. also affect what is available. A little tweaking can help get more out of your gear. Not to mention making it unique. :) There is a non-monetary value in that that shouldn't be completely ignored.
 
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Discussion starter · #37 · (Edited)
We are not talking about building an off-roading monster here. Just doing a few tweaks to make the vehicle a better compromise for our individual situations.
exactly.

I see this vehicle having potential but with restricted aftermarket upgrades, we are left to our own devices, so with the purpose of this thread is to accumulate knowledge to best determine the most practical and modest way of increasing the Patriots capability while retaining is original purpose.

I can live with a bit of an increase of fuel consumption, cause i get a totally unique machine in the end!:)
 
My apologies, Tony. I wasn't thinking just how international this site is. No excuse for that. Obviously I should have remembered that there aren't going to be the sheer numbers of old but serviceable Wranglers and Defenders on the forecourts in every country like there are these days in the U.S. and the U.K.
You can get a decent Defender for playing around in (Obviously it won't be the car you pick your mother-in-law up from the nursing home in) for between three and five thousand quid over here. With the exchange rate as it is, that's around the same in Euros, perhaps a tad more.

Rocal
 
rocal, no worries. :) And yeah, we also could have vehicles with those kind of prices - but our government taxes the crap out of them! Pop over the border to Sweden and you really could find a 2k€ XJ or a 4k€ Defender. The problem is that once you import the vehicle, you have to pay another 2k€ or 4k€ in taxes...

I was thinking about changing differentials or their gears and thought of a couple of problems. If you think about vehicles that have a really low first gear like a heavy truck, when you do not have a heavy load on you usually start driving with the second gear. A Patriot without the FDII transmission electronics, however, forces the transmission to use the lowest gearing when starting to move. This could be annoying. Also, how much of the power train is in reality the same and how much different between an FDI and an FDII? Can the FDI power train handle the lower differential gearing?

In addition to this, there is of course the old lack-of-high-gear problem... Doing 130km/h on a highway might become interesting.
 
I was interested in that same issue over on another thread somewhere, Tony. I was wondering if that extra-low first gear on an FDII was an Underdrive, a sort of solenoid-engaged version of a Fairey Overdrive, like they used to have on some big artics years ago, before the new versatile electronic and automatic gearboxes came into fashion, but apparently, no. It's just a straightforward low gear, so the questions that you've chalked up are valid ones.

Rocal
 
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