Wheelwell and tire width Theory

cyberpine · Jan 10, 2009

As somebody who's tried to run 255/65/16 on 16x8 +12mm offset (which is further out than stock rims) and decided to change off those tires .. I have a theory.

"Tire fit issues with the stock 4x2 patriot are more about height than width - Anything over 28.75 will fail on hard turns and breaks"

My 255/65/16s were 29h x 10w and they only slightly rubbed in reverse on that lip, but would rub awkwardly on hard breaks so I removed them for safety reasons. Looking at where they would rubbed (the wheel well lip) I suspected it was strickly due to height and not the 10" width. I also saw nothing on the inside of the tire (shocks, struts,etc) that was anywhere close.. likely because of +12mm offset vs the +40mm offset of stock rims.

I'm currently running a safe 235/60/16 because frankly i could not locally find a wider size 60 tire.

Those tires look great, but could be taller and much wider in my opinion. There appears to be a good inch and half between the outer edge of the tire and the Patriot well lip.

Since I've been unable to find anybody else who's tried this and most responses seem to indicate it's unlikely I will succeed I'm considering taking a chance on doing a fit and extreme drive test with one BFG 265/60/16 I will mail order. This tire is a 28.5 x 10.45 which I know sounds way too wide right?? but I actually think it will fit without any problems from what I'm seeing in the above pic.

Any Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks.

Here's comparision chart of the 3 tires:

navy48 · Jan 10, 2009

The thing about 'theories' is that someone will always come and attempt to disclaim them.

My experience with my 225/75R16 BFG M/T's is that BOTH diameter and width are equally important.

The problem, for instance, in simply going from a 215/65R17 to a 235/65R17 is that while you're increasing the diameter, you're also increasing the section width of the tire. THIS is not good.

I chose to only go 'up' one size from the 215 to a 225, but go with a narrower tire, a 75 series rather than the 65. This resulted in a tire that does not have a measurable increase (8.7 to 8.9) in section width while still adding 1.5 inches to the overall diameter (28.0 to 29.5).

The result was a much improved ride along with greater traction. BUT with the BFG M/T's there is some sacrifice with only slight rubbing at 'full lock" and increased road noise. For strictly on-road use, I would recommend the BFG A/T's instead. You'll still get the better ride and traction, but without the noise and slight rubbing (the 225/75R16 A/T's are 29.3" vs the 29.5" M/T's in the same size).

This is what I've experienced with my Compass. If I had to do it again, I would get the 225/75R16s in the A/T's. Best of both worlds. :smiley_thumbs_up:

navy48 · Jan 10, 2009

cyberpine said:
Since I've been unable to find anybody else who's tried this and most responses seem to indicate it's unlikely I will succeed I'm considering taking a chance on doing a fit and extreme drive test with one BFG 265/60/16 I will mail order. This tire is a 28.5 x 10.45 which I know sounds way too wide right?? but I actually think it will fit without any problems from what I'm seeing in the above pic.

Keep in mind that while, in theory, that may work for the REAR tires, it won't work on the front. Your pic shows the tire in a 'neutral' position, but what happens when you turn the wheels? the distance between the tire and the wheel well decreases. THIS is what you have to be concerned with as well as the overall diameter and section width. And with the Patriot and Compass, you have to keep in mind the infamous 'spring guard' on the front strut. Tires are much closer to THAT than the inner fenders, unless you go with a different offset wheel. Removal of this guard could cause the spring to come in contact with the tire when the strut is fully compressed. THIS IS DANGEROUS and could result in the spring coming unseated and the strut collapsing. I wouldn't even want to think what this could do to your car while traveling at highway speeds.

But going back to the offset, in changing that you 'may' be causing more problems as well, as the centerline of the tire is no longer the point on which it pivots. When going to a Rubicon wheel for instance, you're INCREASING the 'arc' of the tire.

Sorry I can't explain it better. Maybe doing a search on 'suspension geometry' might help.

Good luck!

heckler · Jan 10, 2009

I wouldn't run one odd sized tire. If you're a 2WD, then you could run the same size tire on front L&R or rear L&R, but putting only one on can't be good for your drive train.

Tony1911 · Jan 10, 2009

Big Panda said:
My experience with my 225/75R16 BFG M/T's

Maybe I've already asked this (in which case, apologies), but how was the performance like with those tires? If I've understood correctly you don't have the FDII, right? So how badly did increasing the tire size hurt acceleration - and more importantly, crawl speed?

cyberpine · Jan 10, 2009

Thanks for responses!

My 2008 Pat is a 2wd cvt 2.0. That pic is of the current 235/60/16 tires and my the tire turned to the point where my biggest tires use to rub .

The 255/65/16 did no rub at the shop when they put them on. In fact I did not notice they would rub for about a week during a really hard break.

Honestly, I'm very impressed with the CVT and did not notice much of a difference in response between the tiny OEM (something like 205/70/16 and the 255/65/16 which were on the +12mm rims) beyond a speedometer miles travelled. Will admit my testing has not on MPG has not been too scientific.. I drive mostly city traffic and have been climbing from 20mpg to around 23mpg now which way better than any truck I've ever driven.

All four tires have always been the exact same size and I plan to keep it that way if I am able to go to 265/60/16. I'm still debating if it's worth a test fit experiment.

Thanks again.

cyberpine · Jan 10, 2009

Big Panda said:
And with the Patriot and Compass, you have to keep in mind the infamous 'spring guard' on the front strut.

when I had the 245/65/16 I would turn them to full lock and get under the car and look for ANYTHING that was possibly in the way and could not see anything within an inch ?? I think this is because of +12 offset.

The only obstuction I have ever seen is that lip in the wheel well. And actually (this is nuts) but when if first mounted the big tires I had the mechanic pull off the wheel well plastic and bend back the stupid metal edge behind the lip as a just in case. Frankly the lip was only an annoyance in that it would make a noise in reverse (at partial lock) when it was wet.. I did not care until one day i had to break really hard (going straight) and something felt totally wrong.. like if the car was actually breaking the tire with that lip and not the break pads. I still think that is because of the 29 height alone.

navy48 · Jan 11, 2009

cyberpine said:
when I had the 245/65/16 I would turn them to full lock and get under the car and look for ANYTHING that was possibly in the way and could not see anything within an inch ?? I think this is because of +12 offset.

The only obstuction I have ever seen is that lip in the wheel well. And actually (this is nuts) but when if first mounted the big tires I had the mechanic pull off the wheel well plastic and bend back the stupid metal edge behind the lip as a just in case. Frankly the lip was only an annoyance in that it would make a noise in reverse (at partial lock) when it was wet.. I did not care until one day i had to break really hard (going straight) and something felt totally wrong.. like if the car was actually breaking the tire with that lip and not the break pads. I still think that is because of the 29 height alone.

It's BRAKE, not 'break'. Know the difference.:doh:

cyberpine · Jan 11, 2009

Oh geez give me a BRAKE.. lol.. more of math and science kinda guy. but thanks anyways.

If I work on my spelling will the tires fit?

... hey, btw, where I come from, when you mean well and have good intentions, you praise in public and critize in private. It's one of those little social things you learn that help you make it to 6 figures and succeed.. not schooling or judging or anything like that.. you know what I mean?

Thanks.

navy48 · Jan 11, 2009

cyberpine said:
Oh geez give me a BRAKE.. lol.. more of math and science kinda guy. but thanks anyways.

If I work on my spelling will the tires fit?

... hey, btw, where I come from, when you mean well and have good intentions, you praise in public and critize(sp) in private. It's one of those little social things you learn that help you make it to 6 figures and succeed.. not schooling or judging or anything like that.. you know what I mean?

Thanks.

The downfall of the American Society.....butchering the language and not giving a rats a$$ about it. Oh, you apparently don't practice what you preach as if you did, you would have sent me a PM rather than to "criticize in public" my comments.

Kids........:doh:

As for your tires fitting if you had used the correct word? The answer is of course YES! The only 'rubbing' you will experience is here on this forum between YOU using "break" for "brake" and ME continuing to correct you.

P.S. I'm happy for you and your "6 figures". Hell, anyone can make that kind of money and have no talent. Just look at Pauly Shore.....

cyberpine · Jan 11, 2009

Very tempting .. I must be bored to even respond to this.

Not looking to war with you or anybody else online. But must say if you spend your time correcting people's English as a habbit that's really sad and lonely. Thank god you have the internet.

Big Panda said:
The downfall of the American Society

???

If there is a downfall it's that too many American have surrendered to the notion that we are done .. . And while there is no doubt we are getting our asses kicked in the global market - it's because we've become lazy, fat and have lost the focus and fire. Maybe all that good spelling and grammer in the contracts that bind the Auto Industry to Unions, or kept all those lawyers in fat bonuses while Wall street was sinking is part of the problem.

It's time for a revolution of sorts.. do your part to make sure everybody knows how to spell. You can do it... Run with it.

Thanks.

Wheelwell and tire width Theory

cyberpine

navy48

navy48

heckler

Tony1911

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navy48

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