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Discussion Starter #1
I was talking with a few friends last night and why is affirmative action not considered a form of racism? Just curious what people think about the issue.

For those who don't know affirmative action is a way to try to get minorities usually chosen only by race into universities and jobs at a higher rate than they would be without it.
 

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Because historically those same minorities were skipped over for admission to schools or for jobs based on their race. So, we had to institute laws to protect them from that type of discrimination. It is not "to try and get minorities usually chosen only by race into universities or jobs at a higher rate". It is to get minorities usually NOT chosen only because of their race into universities and jobs. They still have to meet admission criteria or qualification minimums. (the same minimums as any non-minority) It was first enacted by an Executive Order during JFK's presidency. That order has been amended and replaced a number of times to include women and revise it's wording to better match it's intent. The supreme court has since held that a college or university can use race as a deciding factor in admissions as long as it is not associated with a numerical quota, and helps the institution achieve a greater level of diversity (google search: Fisher v. University of Texas), or that the institution can show a compelling interest in promoting diversity through "race-conscious" admissions practices (google search: Grutter v Bollinger)
It isn't a form of racism because, it prevents minorities from being discriminated against because of race. In order for it to be considered a form of racism, it would need to actively exclude or discriminate against a minority population based on that persons race. As you can see, it is completely the opposite of racism.
 
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That's the idea, DangerAaron, and in theory I agree with it, but the way it actually works is just a Democrat-type way of equalizing which race is there so they can say "see, we're not racist" at the cost of having somebody less qualified for (insert position here) than others who also applied for same position, get accepted to it just because they're a minority. So it keeps racism, just kinda changes the polarity. If it actually just said "hire based only on qualifications and merit, not on skin color/nationality/gender/etc., that'd be well worth supporting.
 

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There's Intelligent Affirmative Action and there's "****, we gotta have Affirmative Action, so let's let in some women and colored folks!". There's a big difference between the two and often the latter is what you get in most situations, even though everyone really needs to be trying to do the former. To use education as an example, a prestigious university will try to practice the former by allocating student admission slots specifically for that and still be discriminatory (selective) in it's admissions of said candidates based on (hopefully) criteria that is comparable to the regular admissions process, but with emphasis on individual background and family financial status. That's not a bad thing, so long as it's done with great care and constant supervision to ensure that resources are not being wasted on those who are not going to "pay off" the investment in the end. The latter, is basically what it sounds like and what you more or less said at the end of your opening post. It doesn't really work well in practice most of the time, but it checks the boxes, more or less. The latter is what I saw when I went to college, because there were a lot of minority students admitted who couldn't really cut it in college due to their previous educational deficiencies - many had no HS equivalent or real educational history - and lack of English proficiency and many who could speak English normally that were admitted solely because they could check the minority box and who also didn't put any serious effort into their studies and didn't care to. There were also ones who were ideal and acceptable candidates for AA that paid their dues, so to speak, overcame deficiencies and obstacles, and got degrees in areas of study that reflected what could be achieved with proper effort and support. Needless to say, you could easily recognize which was which and who deserved to be there. I live in a very diverse area with a lot of immigrants of different backgrounds and life experiences. I am 100% for anyone and everyone getting an education that suits them by any and all legit and acceptable methods, but one has to recognize that educational system resources are finite and cannot be squandered on those who would waste them, which is why I favor learning methods that focus on individuals teaching themselves as much as possible, in ways that work for them, and that don't place a heavy burden on an inflexible "system" that cannot best serve individuals as needed.
 

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Explain your theory to the Asian students in California? Or when they are applying to those Ivy League Schools? You know just saying? Affirmitive Action is a flawed system! Period.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It isn't a form of racism because, it prevents minorities from being discriminated against because of race. In order for it to be considered a form of racism, it would need to actively exclude or discriminate against a minority population based on that persons race. As you can see, it is completely the opposite of racism.
The thing is the definition of racism is this:
rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/Submit
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

This says nothing about minority as a determining factor. So it is still racism in my opinion because based on this definition, the majority race gets "discrimination" against based on race.

I think if we really wanted to not be racist, or discriminate on race, there are better ways of trying to make sure everyone has equal chance at a job. They could discriminate based on income level, living location (poor areas, bad schools), instead of race.

I am not sure why people still think this is the opposite of racism when its definition is discrimination based on race.
 

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The thing is the definition of racism is this:
rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/Submit
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
Affirmative action isn't about promoting one race over another; it is NOT racism.

By 2045, the population of non-Hispanic Caucasians will make up less than half of the US total population. As it stands right now, non-Hispanic Caucasians are only slightly more than half of the population, yet hold a disproportionate number of high-level jobs and college admissions.

If everything were equal, then why is the white population better represented in these sectors? Because people of color are not granted the same opportunities as white people.

Why are PoC not offered these same opportunities? Why are they passed up for similar positions?

Affirmative action is an attempt to correct this. It is NOT always effective, and it is NOT always implemented correctly, but the reason it exists is clear - because people of color are NOT equally represented in school admissions and the workforce.

But by your definition, it is NOT RACISM. Nobody is saying PoC are superior.

But by all means, continue to tell us why its racist.

Rosso: This is not a Democrat agenda. Stop trying to make it a party issue. this has literally nothing to do with anyone's political alignment.
 

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Affirmative action isn't about promoting one race over another; it is NOT racism.
I disagree, because in the case of schooling since my children have fair colored skin - they may get passed up on, lose education opportunities, not qualify for scholarships, face rejection, are subject to quotas in favor of children that have darker colored skin. To me that is the poster child for promoting one race over another!

By 2045, the population of non-Hispanic Caucasians will make up less than half of the US total population. As it stands right now, non-Hispanic Caucasians are only slightly more than half of the population
I am not a "non-Hispanic Caucasian" nor am I a "Caucasian" nor am I "white". If anything I am olive skinned and identify by where my family is from and my genetics which is Croatian. Do you also know that the "Caucasian race" is an obsolete racial classification of human beings? If you wanted to use the term loosely to what it could be defined to - you could be referring to the peoples of the Caucasus Russia, Georgia, Turkey, etc. If not if you want to single out the racial term "white people" are you referring to European peoples (if so use the term European)? however that is not correct either as people of that skin color are found world wide and not just from Europe.

yet hold a disproportionate number of high-level jobs and college admissions. If everything were equal, then why is the white population better represented in these sectors? Because people of color are not granted the same opportunities as white people. Why are PoC not offered these same opportunities? Why are they passed up for similar positions?
The higher numbers for high level jobs, college admissions has nothing to do with a lack of opportunities - rather it is a result of social choices, performance results, and most importantly economics among a host of other variables. Remember that in this country we have capitalist society and our education for example is also a byproduct of that. People of any race, gender, or origin has the same rights as anyone else and are eligible for the same opportunities, positions, etc as anyone else. If anything in this nation, people with fair colored skin have more legal barriers in place for them because of affirmative action.

We can also ask why there is a highly disproportionate percentage of darker colored males in our legal/prison system? Is it because the law states that we need to ensure that we have a high percentage of people of color occupying our jails and prisons? Are people of color taught growing up that in order to keep the balance they should be committing crimes to ensure they are highly represented in the legal system? I hope this analogy highlights how absurd and backwards affirmative action is.

:friday:
 

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Heh :D

In the past hundred years sadly this nation has slowly spiraled down a path of entitlement that has been parasitic on our society. Everyone demands everything for free and right now to fulfill their selfish individualist agenda - and sadly they have figured out how to use their race and gender to take from others for what they have not deserved. This nation is setup to reward those that work hard, achievers, performance, etc - like any system its flawed but overall works well. Affirmative action is one huge flaw of out system.

My brother is in school to be a firefighter and is almost done. Even tho he is top of his class - he may not get the job at the house he wants to work in because of affirmative action even though he is the highest qualified cadet in his class (top of his class) and arguably at the house he wants to work in. In an employment and schooling situation as his case - he may be going through the most impactful race based discrimination lesson in his life that is encoded in our legal system that would unfairly in every way hurt and delay his career. How would you feel in this situation where you have been tutoring a kid in your class that clearly is not qualified to graduate, lacks the compassion, is not passionate in his career choice, etc yet this kid of colored skin is going to be handed a golden opportunity at your cost ... and it is all made possible by a discriminatory race based law.

:doh:
 
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So you're fine with a large part of the population being under-represented in higher education and business?


This nation is also setup to reward nepotism and accumulation of wealth. Shall we continue down that path unchecked and see where it leads?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Affirmative action isn't about promoting one race over another; it is NOT racism.
So tell me why schools and jobs are required by law to have a certain portion of their people of a certain race? How is this not about promoting one race over another?

If everything were equal, then why is the white population better represented in these sectors? Because people of color are not granted the same opportunities as white people.
I would disagree. I think it has more to do with the upbringing of these people. If I was brought up in a crime ridden, terrible school system, with no jobs in the area, and low income, I think I would be less likely to succeed. White people just tend to not be in these areas as much as minorities.

I think it has almost nothing to do with race. "Discriminating" as in demanding that certain races are admitted to colleges are jobs is what is racist.

Affirmative action is an attempt to correct this. It is NOT always effective, and it is NOT always implemented correctly, but the reason it exists is clear - because people of color are NOT equally represented in school admissions and the workforce.
Do you think instead of demanding race xyz has to be 20% of the accepted applicants, wouldn't it be better to say if an applicant are below a level of income, or from a school in the bottom 20% of performance, or from an area where crime is x times higher than the national average, this would be a better metric instead? Wouldn't that be better than just because a person is a minority race, they are held to a lower standard of acceptance?

What about all those white poor people who are brought up in a low income family and terrible schools who probably are less likely to succeed than an average black person? It would really suck to be them because they don't even have affirmative action to help them.

But by your definition, it is NOT RACISM. Nobody is saying PoC are superior.

But by all means, continue to tell us why its racist.
Ok lets not say that that affirmative action is racism but racial preference, meaning that white applicants are held at a higher standard because they are white, while minority races are not. Isn't this the same as saying whites are more likely to be successful and have better credentials than non whites? Isn't this the same as saying whites are superior in these standards so we have to punish them for doing well? Affirmative action is racism because it is holding whites to a higher standard and thus supporting the idea that racism exists.

Here is one for you:
Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 ( Equal Employment Opportunities) which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin (including limited English proficiency).

How is this not violated in affirmative action?
 

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I am fine with whatever the racial percentile of any race and ratios based on performance, qualification, hard work, etc. Race should never be a determining factor in education or employment.

So you're fine with a large part of the population being under-represented in higher education and business?

This nation is also setup to reward nepotism and accumulation of wealth. Shall we continue down that path unchecked and see where it leads?
Every single person, if given the opportunity, engages in nepotism of some form. If a company wishes to engage in nepotism so be it - if they decide its not in the best interest - good for them. Accumulation of wealth in the wealthy is a whole nother story - lets stick with this elephant :nerd:
 
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Every man and women in this world is in charge of their own future and the odds differ based on any given situation/scenario/etc and where they are in this world.
So yes dependent on many factors .... the odds may or may not be in my or your favor.
 
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Affirmative action may have started out with all the best intentions, but like 99.9% of all government programs, it has simply been abused.

As a society, we not play the "I'm a victim" card game. the more cards you have, the more equal you are above others, and the more "help" you "need", and the louder your voice is allowed to be. Affirmative action only supports this notion. I honestly, if I was a person of color, would be personally offended by it's simple existence. It's our government straight out saying that they do not think minorities, women, etc. are capable of success without a handicap. That they cannot achieve without somebody else stepping in for them. It would make me so mad to have that hanging around my neck everywhere I went.
 

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Exactly. "Women and minorities aren't represented" maybe because overall they are one way or another less likely to even apply for college or certain jobs? So we need to bring in more than are qualified, leaving out qualified applicants who happen to have fairer skin or a Y chromosome, just to fight against some imagined racism/sexism? That IS the racism/sexism, right there!!!! And nth256 says "don't make this a party issue", but the reality is that the people who are using "because he beat Hillary" at the Democrat-rigged election as an excuse to impeach Trump are the people crying for this. Americans know that if you want that position ya gotta work for it. Americans know the First Amendment applies to us all, not just communist Democrat "Americans". And Americans know that the Second Amendment doesn't say "if you have a permit for it" or "as long as you don't have a certain type of criminal record". We need to work on an actual solution instead of whining about how we have an actual POTUS in office for the first time in 8 years.
 

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In the news again - there should never - ever - be any race criteria in any education based admissions process.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/us/politics/asian-students-affirmative-action-harvard.html

The Justice Department lent its support on Friday to students who are suing Harvard University over affirmative action policies that they claim discriminate against Asian-American applicants, in a case that could have far-reaching consequences for the use of affirmative action in college admissions.
 
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