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Yes, the things we've been discussing, arguing over, disagreeing on, all that. Mostly in Tyler's build thread, and the poor guy must be a little beyond frustrated by now. I don't consider his ride to be a Jeep, much less a Cherokee, but I don't wanna be a poor sport either. Let's put the recent tangent here, hmm? So to recap.....

Automatic transmission: Useful in city driving and off-road, but relied upon a bit too heavily in today's culture. Provides a bit less control than a manual, as a clutch/stick setup can help a driver avoid using their brakes more often to slow down, and possibly help avoid congestion a bit. CVT works a little better than an automatic in this regard as well, as it's more efficient, but is also thought of a bit too often as just another automatic, but with reliability issues. In reality, we all know it's not just another automatic, and that if actually maintained it works fairly well. CVT also requires a little skill to get the best acceleration possible, but still relies a bit more heavily on the brake pedal to slow down and doesn't include a clutch. So I'd say partial step down from a manual on that one.

DRL's: They wear down the headlights quicker, cause some drivers to think their headlights are already fully on, and in some cases use the high beams alone for "running lights", but sure, let's install this crap on everything!!!! Nope. If it's bright enough somebody can see you from behind without need of your taillights, it's bright enough they can see you from ahead without your headlights. Only vehicles that have DRL's I can at all tolerate is the 2001-2006 GM fullsize pickups, and that's because they're the only vehicles(besides those with the new LED strip crap that screws up people's eyes) with the DRL as a completely separate light from the rest of the forward illumination. And even that isn't really necessary. Might still want it disabled or at least put on a separate switch if I owned one.

Automatic headlights: The fact that the headlight switch still exists at all in vehicles equipped with this particular un-safety feature is by itself rather compelling proof that a trained driver knows when the lights need turned on better than any computer can. It's teaching people to not think to flip that switch, then when they find themselves in a vehicle without it, they take too long to realize what's up. Very dangerous. I even read a story recently about how some lady took her car in for repairs and didn't know why it was always beeping at her when she got it back. The mechanic had left the light switch on when testing the lights, and as her car had automatic headlights, she had absolutely no idea that it still had a switch for them.

Backup sensors/cameras: I can almost understand the sensors, particularly considering there's some situations where ya have to just hurry up and park, but still it's wise to familiarize yourself with how close your vehicle's rear bumper is to an object just by looking in the mirror. And the cameras are even worse. Here's a stinkin' TV SCREEN taking up valuable dash space, telling you exactly what's behind you and how far away it is, then you get into a vehicle without it and have no idea what you're doing. Again, very dangerous.

Touchscreen "radios": Yes, I put radio in quotes because I understand these devices to also have a satnav option when just about everybody who's gonna buy such a thing already has Google Maps on their phone, or owns a Garmin/Tomtom device, or can access a Rand McNally road atlas for much cheaper. Plus the in-dash satnav is usually much less accurate compared to any of these others. And these days it also has some headlight control? Could've sworn we already had a switch for that stuff, and it didn't rely on a computer. And "but I HAVE to have Bluetooth" for whatever reason. All a car really needs as far is a radio is AM/FM, probably an auxiliary jack if you wanna play Pandora or have hands-free calling, and maybe CD or cassette(or both) if you want ready-mixed music. Can't be much of an automobile if it's too busy being a rolling entertainment center, hmm? Not to mention this now-standard crap is providing the very distractions that everybody seems to want to make illegal, but everybody seems to make use of anyways as they see the need.

Electric windows/locks/mirrors/seats, mildly useful but hardly as necessary as you'd think from reading what some say they "need" in a vehicle. Not to mention the whole key fob remote thing. Seems like every time I grab the remote to my Impala, I accidentally hit the red button and need to turn the "panic" feature back off. Hardly the most useful thing, it just drains battery, and the car has a keyhole in the front doors if I need to unlock it from the outside. And this is all hardly part of the rugged, simple, basic experience that is mainstream Jeep. A few things like power everything and leather seats in an Impala or something sure, but a Jeep? Are you nuts? That's not how this company got it's reputation. Everybody seems to be like "I want a Jeep but I want it super comfy with leather seats, power everything, touchscreen, all the gimmicks". So what I'm hearing is, you want a Cadillac, or a Buick, or a Bentley, or maybe(one for AIC) an Infiniti, or (on the off chance you actually need 4x4) a Land Rover. And a comfy ride I understand, nobody wants to be sore after a long day's drive. But not wanting to know you're even on the road is downright insane. Hearing a little bit of rev from the engine(helpful in knowing if something's wrong, even knowing approximate RPM before looking at the tach), feeling the conversation the tires are having with the road, being able to hear things like a horn honking or a siren wailing...this is all part of the driving experience and it seems everywhere I turn somebody is trying to throw it all away. There's the art form that is driving, and there's just operating some controls because you wanna get someplace. Too many people are ignoring the former and embracing the latter, and it's ruining an entire industry, with a side effect of making our roads more dangerous....especially in and near Commiefornia.

Then there's the Wrangler specifically. "I want a Wrangler but I need 4 doors". Assuming you actually need 4 doors, and many of us really don't, that's exactly why the SJ, XJ, ZJ, WJ, KJ, WK, KK, XK, and FiatRangeRoverwithaJeepbadge WK2 were invented. But in most cases, how much of a need do you really have for those back doors? My parents did an absolutely wonderful job of raising my brother and me, and if the whole family needed to go somewhere(or just my mom, my brother, and myself)we got where we needed to go in a two-door extended cab '97 K1500. Power windows and locks sure, but no key fob, no CD player(let alone an aux jack or Bluetooth or anything like that), and no automatic headlights. The headlights alone being on all the time kinda drove me nuts, but it was a working reliable vehicle for my family from 1996 until 2012. It really was all we needed.

So yes, there's a HUGE difference between "want" and "need". And as a final point, if you're not gonna leave the pavement, you probably don't even need 4x4, let alone a Jeep. AWD and 4x4 are handy in cold weather, but good tires are honestly better. Yet so many flock to the Jeep dealerships every autumn believing that this magical thing called "4 wheel drive" will see them through the winter without issue, no matter what stupid stunts they pull. But oh, this magical 4x4 must also have all the features they've become all too accustomed to in their city slicker luxury sedan. And so, just to turn a few dollars' profit, the Italians at the Fiat decision-making level knowingly ruin the very life and legacy of THE American icon brand and willingly spoil all the drones flooding the dealerships demanding this "refinement" from ruggedness. And it just doesn't work.
 

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Rosso, that was a mouthful or in our case a screenful!

Like you, I also prefer a simpler vehicle. Things like putting the heater controls on a touchscreen are IMO beyond foolish, they are dangerous. Used to be we could operate our accessories with knobs we could feel while we were driving -- no need to take our eyes off the road. Now, even if there are knobs, people will use the touch screen just because its there.

I've posted elsewhere that while DRLs may make it safer for autos, they make things more dangerous for motorcycles because motorcycles no longer stand out as they once did.

I think backup cameras were invented to keep people from backing over their grandchildren in the driveway. Tragic circumstances created by unsupervised children and drivers with poor awareness.* While being unnecessary in most circumstances they are becoming more helpful as our rear view is clogged with rear seat head restraints. Besides our Patriot I also own a 2nd gen Compass and its nearly impossible to see out the rear window. I'm sure my view is more than 50% blocked (yet police were giving out traffic tickets to drivers with those silly little "Baby on Board" stickers that were affixed to the rear windows, ostensibly an obstruction). Having driven trucks for a number of years I learned to back up with my side mirrors only. No doubt you've learned to squeeze into a loading dock with only inches on either side. Yet there are drivers who can't back their Patriot into their garage without ripping off a side mirror!

Totally agree on the unnecessary AWD 4x4 vehicles out there. Most people don't need it. What really scalds me are those idiots that think because they've got 4wd they can corner or brake better in ice or snow. I've read posts on this forum that have said as much. I know one study was done that claimed 4wd stopped faster than FWD, but I have my doubts since both vehicles have the same amount of rubber on the road and only a slight difference in weight, and the weight could be a double-edge sword. I'm not sure how the weight/traction/momentum equation would play out in every circumstance. However, I am a believer in ABS brakes, but I do not rely on them.

Brings me to tires. Good dedicated snow tires on a FWD vehicle will get you through anything you should be out in. If that's not adequate, one must ask if the trip is necessary. Ok, if you're a volunteer firefighter or a hospital worker, then outfit your vehicle for the worst. The rest of us should plan our trips around the weather. I've made it no secret that I travel a lot, but I plan my trips around the weather reports. My vehicle will handle most anything, but I don't take on the Kancamagus just for the adventure. More than once I've found a motel and called my Wife. Even if I'm under control, it doesn't mean other drivers are. It could be one of those 4wd drivers I mentioned in the previous paragraph coming toward me. I'm a believer in studded tires just because I'm afraid of ice, but I'm not going to drive foolishly in snow. Truth be known I had to check myself yesterday driving in snow: studs, while helpful, aren't magic.

I was pleased to see you mention "the conversation the tires are having with the road" as a source of driver information. Tires make a different sound on wet pavement than they do on ice. Hearing that difference can be a lifesaver. Before I had a thermometer on the dashboard I learned to use my radio antenna or my sideview mirrors as temperature monitors. If ice is forming out there, I don't care what the dashboard says. Even if the dash says 35F, it doesn't know if the air temp just rose but the road had been deeply frozen for hours or days before.


*Its not only the elderly. I had one of my drivers hop into his truck and do some paperwork before moving his truck. Meanwhile a small car had parked beside him and he never noticed. When he moved his truck . . . Crunch!
 

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Your needs dont match other's.
Its nice to have features in cars these days, especially when we spend so much time in them.
Agreed, but I think Rosso's point is that such vehicles are on the market and he'd like to see Jeep remain as it started: a basic utility vehicle.

Seems to me as Dodge and Chrysler are fading, they could put the luxury Jeeps into those lines. The GC, Cherokee and Compass should be part of the Chrysler or Dodge lineups. Wrangler and Renegade could still make a solid foundation for Jeep; maybe give Jeep a minivan by moving the Journey to Jeep.
 

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Your needs dont match other's.
Its nice to have features in cars these days, especially when we spend so much time in them.
Agreed, but I think Rosso's point is that such vehicles are on the market and he'd like to see Jeep remain as it started: a basic utility vehicle.

Seems to me as Dodge and Chrysler are fading, they could put the luxury Jeeps into those lines. The GC, Cherokee and Compass should be part of the Chrysler or Dodge lineups. Wrangler and Renegade could still make a solid foundation for Jeep; maybe give Jeep a minivan by moving the Journey to Jeep.
The problem is most buyers don't want a bare bones Jeep.

Look at the truck market, when was the last time you saw a regular cab long bed pickup out in front of the dealer lots. Bottom line is they'll stock what sells.

Backup cameras are a good addition, no matter what driving skill there's still a blind spot using every mirror you have.

Traction control is a good thing. Even the best drivers aren't aware of all road conditions. Black ice, loose gravel, swerving to avoid road hazards are all real possibilities that traction control helps. Adding AWD to the mix makes it even safer.

The touch screen displays are safer, no goofing around with your phone to look at directions, skip a song, no looking to see who's calling (even with a hands-free device), no fiddling with temp controls since most do auto climate.

Most of the complaints are personal preference, nothing wrong with that but that's why there are options.
 

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Perfect!!! Rosso, you can keep all your Fiat, Cherokar, Renegayd comments all here and finally stop polluting the entire forum with your unhinged, baseless opinions! Post away here as the rest of us can easily ignore this thread. Happy new Year!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The problem is most buyers don't want a bare bones Jeep.

Look at the truck market, when was the last time you saw a regular cab long bed pickup out in front of the dealer lots. Bottom line is they'll stock what sells.

Backup cameras are a good addition, no matter what driving skill there's still a blind spot using every mirror you have.

Traction control is a good thing. Even the best drivers aren't aware of all road conditions. Black ice, loose gravel, swerving to avoid road hazards are all real possibilities that traction control helps. Adding AWD to the mix makes it even safer.

The touch screen displays are safer, no goofing around with your phone to look at directions, skip a song, no looking to see who's calling (even with a hands-free device), no fiddling with temp controls since most do auto climate.

Most of the complaints are personal preference, nothing wrong with that but that's why there are options.
The problem is most buyers are SPOILED and can't operate without these crutches that they've been told are necessities. My mom has been pushing me to get the stupid undersized Mopar "gas tank" OEM model back into my Patriot because I "need that 4wd". No, my Impala works just fine thank you very much, but I'm getting the stupid thing in there right now instead of holding out for a fuel cell because I want my Jeep back, am a bit more accustomed to using it in any weather, and apparently I've gotta convince some politicians somewhere to change some laws before I can have a racing fuel cell be road-legal. Apparently the way it sucks the gas outa the tank is somehow too different for them to like.

Backup cameras have their places, but not in a basic vehicle with good visibility. If you're worried about your kids running around behind your vehicle, TEACH THEM TO NOT DO THAT!!!! Be aware of your surroundings!!!! Driving 101 and some think they can ignore that because convenience or some such crap.

Traction control has been helpful for me in many circumstances, but there's times when it needs to be off, and it won't cancel out stupid driving. AWD also can help keep a vehicle stable, but as Ignatz has proven time and again, regular FWD with proper tires beats out even the world's best AWD with crappy tires any day.

The touchscreens are a menace. If you don't want people looking at screens while driving, don't make it mandatory to sell them a mobile entertainment center that they think is a car!!!

And you say there's options but if I wanted something optioned how I would want it for a 2017-2018 vehicle, I'd be ripping out a touchscreen, doing some massive rewiring, trying with an unknown level of success to find a headlight switch without an "auto" option, and probably a couple other things too. The only options these days are gimmicks that aren't really needed. They're just there because of today's culture of entitlement, everybody just HAVING to have the latest and greatest "hip" tech or whatever crap, and getting so used to it that they don't realize how much better they could drive without it. Even cruise control, which even I use on occasion in my Impala, has become a crutch.
 

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If you want to go that far then you're spoiled.

You only need 4 cylinder, you only need a carburetor, you only need 1 seat, you don't need a radio, you don't need a roof, you don't need heat, etc.

Maybe a Model T would be great for you.

The same arguments are made every time there's a new advancement. Seatbelts, ABS, airbags, LATCH, crumple zones, fuel injection, they were all controversial.
 

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Backup cameras have their places, but not in a basic vehicle with good visibility. If you're worried about your kids running around behind your vehicle, TEACH THEM TO NOT DO THAT!!!! Be aware of your surroundings!!!! Driving 101 and some think they can ignore that because convenience or some such crap.
I'm going to assume you don't have kids. Yes you can teach them but can you tell me you've never done anything you weren't supposed to? They're kids they're quick and impulsive and if using a camera saves 1 life it's worth it.

The touchscreens are a menace. If you don't want people looking at screens while driving, don't make it mandatory to sell them a mobile entertainment center that they think is a car!!!

And you say there's options but if I wanted something optioned how I would want it for a 2017-2018 vehicle, I'd be ripping out a touchscreen, doing some massive rewiring, trying with an unknown level of success to find a headlight switch without an "auto" option, and probably a couple other things too. The only options these days are gimmicks that aren't really needed. They're just there because of today's culture of entitlement, everybody just HAVING to have the latest and greatest "hip" tech or whatever crap, and getting so used to it that they don't realize how much better they could drive without it. Even cruise control, which even I use on occasion in my Impala, has become a crutch.
Here's another deal, you buy a new car and by your own words would "be ripping out a touchscreen" lets say your in a parking lot with previously mentioned child. You check your mirrors and surrounding and from the time you check one side to the other a child has run and stopped behind your vehicle. They aren't visible in any mirrors and are too short to be visible over the trunk.

In this instance a backup camera will save their life, but since you've removed that you back over them. Now you're in court because you've admitted publicly (on this forum) that you think the technology is worthless to you, and that you have willingly removed required safety equipment (NHTSA mandates any vehicle manufactured after May 2018 to be fitted with one).

Would any of that be worth maybe just giving the tech a go and maybe admitting that it does have it's place?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I've seen vehicles with a backup camera, and a driver who is constantly aware of their surroundings, not to mention a proper parent, won't have the problem you just mentioned. Yes I was impulsive, and did some stuff I shouldn't have, but some things are taught to kids as "this just isn't done". Wandering around a moving vehicle where I could potentially be in the way was never an option, and my mom ALWAYS knew where I was. If for two seconds she thought she didn't, she'd freak out. Because that's part of parenting. And I specified 2017-2018 specifically because I'd be looking for something made before May 1st 2018 for that specific reason....the government is trying to run our lives for us instead of governing and protecting against actual threats like oh, say, idiots and threats foreign/domestic. And once I test drove a car with the stupid backup cam. Was the new Focus, like a 2011 or 2012. Back end was too hight, probably because of that same stupid government interference. There is no new vehicle on the market with a sufficiently small amount of interfering tech, that the government is now actually preventing the actual drivers from purchasing new vehicles, because we prefer something that isn't going to do the driving for us. You wanna see around your car? Check your mirrors and maybe do like a trucker and GET OUT TO LOOK!!! And no, I wouldn't be in court, because if there were kids running around I'd be the one person smart enough to keep looking around and make sure I don't hit them, because too many parents these days are just plain incompetent.

And while it'd be cool to drive a Model T, I already have all the vehicle I need. That's what brought me to this forum, where everybody but Ignatz seems to somehow actually have swallowed the notion that all this computer crap is actually necessary. Need to get the governments out of automotive design already. Just require that the customer know how to operate EVERYTHING including the headlight switch, and that they are aware that such a model doesn't necessarily have whatever latest "safety" feature and if they get into an accident that it's not the manufacturer's fault unless something the car is equipped with failed and specifically caused the accident. That's really about all they need.
 

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Perfect!!! Rosso, you can keep all your Fiat, Cherokar, Renegayd comments all here and finally stop polluting the entire forum with your unhinged, baseless opinions! Post away here as the rest of us can easily ignore this thread. Happy new Year!
Heck of a way to say thank you, but I'm sure Rosso senses your gratitude. I hope you both have a Happy New Year. :beerchug:
 

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I test drove a car with the stupid backup cam. Was the new Focus, like a 2011 or 2012. Back end was too hight, probably because of that same stupid government interference.
As manufacturers are focused on occupant safety, we have less glass and more metal around us. I notice the A-pillar in my Compass is so fat -- and then with the sideview mirror attached to it -- that a pedestrian, bicycle, or motorcycle can be easily screened from view. Wouldn't matter if a motorcycle had the headlight on or not, it can be completely blocked out, particularly if my vehicle is leaning left so the mirror assembly is higher or if the other vehicle is coming upgrade. The problem is accentuated when making a left turn, because the passenger side A-pillar can continue to screen a vehicle (particularly a motorcycle) as my vehicle turns and the pillar assembly moves at the approximate speed of the motorcycle.

I had a close one with a jogger approaching from my right who was screened by my A-pillar. Fortunately she wasn't in her own world inside her headphones, nor did she dash into the crosswalk as joggers often do, also fortunate that I checked twice and she was wearing red and I caught a glimpse of her. I didn't rely on my "pedestrian-in-blind-spot" sensor to sound off. Had we both not been paying attention, Christmas might not have been very merry for some of us.

I'm learning to compensate, but frankly its just plain hard to see around. God forbid I'm involved in a rollover, I'll be glad to have a solid A-pillar but I wonder if (presume) insurance companies track what vehicles are involved in what sort of crashes, I've got to think the 2nd gen Compass will be near the top of some list.
 
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