Another Forester vs Patriot Post (The Important Questions)

[Jmikeb92]

Okay this website has seen it's fair share of Patriot vs Forester posts, and we all know it. My question is how similar are the all wheel drive systems on the Subaru and the FD1? I have been watching a lot of videos of first and second generation Foresters negotiating rough terrain such as deep snow and mud relatively well. Will the FD1 be able to do the same in just AWD mode or is 4 wheel lock necessary. Can we get through the same terrain at all even with 4WD. This is strictly for FD1's because most of us know that FD2 are have far superior off road ability due to their added clearance and 4WD-L mode.

[TJ99er]

Originally Posted by Jmikeb92

Okay this website has seen it's fair share of Patriot vs Forester posts, and we all know it. My question is how similar are the all wheel drive systems on the Subaru and the FD1? I have been watching a lot of videos of first and second generation Foresters negotiating rough terrain such as deep snow and mud relatively well. Will the FD1 be able to do the same in just AWD mode or is 4 wheel lock necessary. Can we get through the same terrain at all even with 4WD. This is strictly for FD1's because most of us know that FD2 are have far superior off road ability due to their added clearance and 4WD-L mode.

For 2011 the FDI and II share the same clearance. Which are both higher then a subi.

The AWD system in the patriot "locks" into 4x4... the subi's does not.

The patriot can be had with tow hooks... so if you are worried about getting stuck in snow, this is priceless.

I am happy with mine... if it get stuck in the snow, i can yank it out with the TJ... (or if the TJ gets stuck I have a anchor )

[jeffkash]

I have a 2011 Patriot and a 2002 Forester (seized engine at 164k).

Just got the Patriot so have no experience with it off road or in the snow.

But with the higher ground clearance and the 4WD as opposed to the full time AWD of the Forester, I anticipate the Patriots performance will be superior.

Would have bought another Subaru but the dealer in town couldn't be bothered to talk to me. Went across the street to the Jeep dealer and left with a new Patriot! So far, I am pleased.

[Woody715]

My wife has a 2011 Forester and as you can see I have 2011 4X4 FD1 Pat....

[MrMischief]

Subaru is very hush hush about their different awd systems. I went to a Subaru dealer to test drive a Forester, read the review here:
http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84096
Anyways; as I went in to meet the manager and tell him that his product doesn't flip my switch (why do they always make me do that?) I was looking at the Legacy GT. Nicer car then the forester. Without driving it, I could say it'd be something I'm okay with. I don't LOVE it like I love my Wrangler, but it's ok. There I go rambling again... Anywho; I asked the salesman about the differences in Subaru's all wheel drive systems. Of course according to him there is no difference, they are all the same. Which is simply not true. It takes some digging but you can find the different systems on subaru.com.
Basically though they claim that all systems are set up to be awd all the time, how they do this varies and the torque split also varies. But, if this is true, this is a win for Subaru over Freedom Drive I and II in my opinion. When I'm cruising down the snow covered interstate I want my ponies fairly equally distributed between all four tires.

The downside of this is reduced fuel economy and tire scrubbing on tight turns. Now, some new Subarus have fuel economy numbers that I'm calling BS on. Mainly the 2012 Impreza with it's 27 city 36 highway. I have no idea how they are accomplishing those numbers while still having a near 50/50 power distribution front and rear. The CVT Impreza uses what they call "Active AWD" which I'm betting is very similar to Freedom Drive in that it's going to be front wheel drive until there is slip. That's the only way I can imagine they are getting that kind of MPG, but Subaru doesn't want to admit that's how it works.

So I'm suspect out of the gate about these systems. Secondly; the Forester I drove had no tire scrub under tight turns. I suspect this is because the system is not truly split near 50/50 ALL of the time as Subaru claims. I suspect under certain conditions the power is removed from the rear axle, the same way Freedom Drive does (even when "locked"). So basically I call BS on a lot of Subaru's marketing. When it comes to moving power left to right, my understanding is that the Forester no longer includes a LSD in the rear. It instead relies on the ESC (Subaru calls it something else) to tap dance on the brakes and try to move power to the wheel with traction. Freedom Drive I does this. (according to jeep.com the FDI has brake lock differentials. Capabilities : Capability Comparison : All Weather : Patriot)

So which is the better AWD system? I say on paper it's a tie. In the real world it's going to come down to two things. How aggressive the software programming is to move the power around and tap dance the brakes, and how reliable the system is going to be. As far as I know, nobody here has ever posted a problem with Freedom Drive breaking. Sure there are other issues, but the axels and the "transfer case" have held up fine, even for those with with a lift and larger tires. I imagine Subaru is also reliable, but I wonder how many of their owners lift them and put larger tires on them. I do know there was an issue with the Forester's ABS being easily startled leading to extended braking distances on snow and ice. I don't know if there was ever a recall, but the fix I read about was "buy snow tires" which doesn't fly for me.

If it's my money I'm spending, I'm going with Jeep. Just simply how forthcoming Jeep is with "this is the system, here's how it works" compared to Subaru leads me to trust Jeep more. At least I know exactly what I'm buying, where Subaru seems to say "it's symmetrical awd" while never truly explaining what that means and how it's different in each vehicle.

btw; when I was looking into the Forester I found a number of videos Subaru makes where it's Subaru AWD vs the competition. I never found one where it was Subaru vs Jeep. A lot of comments hold that the Subaru has "better" traction then even a Rubicon. I don't know how they define "better" but all four tires fully 100% mechanically locked (as in if one wheel slips it's because shiz is busted) together seems to be the only true all wheel drive system, Jeep has it, Subaru doesn't. Fully locked sucks on snow and ice (I tried several laps ice racing that way, doesn't work), but I bring it up to demonstrate that once again Subaru owners typically don't know what they're talking about. They know granola, they don't know cars. (STI crowd is the exception, but not relevant here.)

[TJ99er]

Originally Posted by MrMischief

Subaru is very hush hush about their different awd systems. I went to a Subaru dealer to test drive a Forester,

Theres a difference between them being hush hush, and a dealer not knowing what they are flippin selling. I suspect it is the latter.

I am not really a fan of subies... as their commercials make me want to punch a puppy... and they are secretly owned by toyota... which i also dont like

[MrMischief]

Originally Posted by TJ99er

Theres a difference between them being hush hush, and a dealer not knowing what they are flippin selling. I suspect it is the latter.

Go to subaru.com and try to find information about their different drivetrains. It's there, but it's hidden away.
Now go to Jeep.com and find information about their different drivetrains.

BTW; I was just playing on Subaru.com. They have a place I can compare a Jeep Patriot to a Forester. Did you know the Patriot is not available with all wheel drive? The Forester has a "locking differential" but the Patriot that's an upgrade. I suppose for the front axle? They say the manual transmission is not available in the Patriot. Apparently having it available on the Forester is an advantage. I'd say most people in the US market would disagree. But the one that caught my eye the most is Subaru claims the 2012 Patriot 4x4 has 8.1 inches of ground clearance compared to the 8.7 inches of the forester. I guess until someone takes the time to get out the tape measure, find the lowest point on the Patriot and measure it, this will just be a he said / she said argument. Subaru basically makes the claim that for the money the Forester is better equipped. I've driven both and I would disagree. The Forester Premium (one up from base) seems.... average, at best. The Patriot Latitude feels more high class to me. Not luxury, but just one notch down. I guess "Premium" is what I'd call it to steal a line from the Subaru marketing folks.

[TJ99er]

Originally Posted by MrMischief

Go to subaru.com and try to find information about their different drivetrains. It's there, but it's hidden away.
Now go to Jeep.com and find information about their different drivetrains.

BTW; I was just playing on Subaru.com. They have a place I can compare a Jeep Patriot to a Forester. Did you know the Patriot is not available with all wheel drive? The Forester has a "locking differential" but the Patriot that's an upgrade. I suppose for the front axle? They say the manual transmission is not available in the Patriot. Apparently having it available on the Forester is an advantage. I'd say most people in the US market would disagree. But the one that caught my eye the most is Subaru claims the 2012 Patriot 4x4 has 8.1 inches of ground clearance compared to the 8.7 inches of the forester. I guess until someone takes the time to get out the tape measure, find the lowest point on the Patriot and measure it, this will just be a he said / she said argument. Subaru basically makes the claim that for the money the Forester is better equipped. I've driven both and I would disagree. The Forester Premium (one up from base) seems.... average, at best. The Patriot Latitude feels more high class to me. Not luxury, but just one notch down. I guess "Premium" is what I'd call it to steal a line from the Subaru marketing folks.

I think jeep makes a bigger deal of their 4x4 system (an explains them) because people generally buy jeeps for their off road nature. People who buy subies just want a car with awd for bad weather... or per their commercials, being metro, driving down dirt/gravel roads and calling it off roading.

And subies site is going to do whatever they can to push metal. Im not surprised.

[Earthworm51]

That's the Truth, Amen.

[TJ99er]

i also forgot... having an over sentimental love of their car, which makes a normal person want to ...like i said... punch a puppy.