http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=209

It's rated a 4. We haven't been down there since the Hayman Fire in 2002. The trail reopened in 2007. The trail is easy, but the last half is very steep. Unless there has been a lot of run off this should be a pretty easy run. I think a FDII will not have problems. FDI might, if you show up make sure you have recovery points on the front. I fear we might have to pull a Patriot up the hill due to the lack of low gearing. I suppose we could pull one up backwards, but that just makes a bad situation worse.

So anyways; we're meeting in Sedalia at 8 AM. Let me know if you're coming and what you're driving so we don't leave you behind. You can reply here, shoot me a PM or post on our Colorado 4 Wheeling wall on Facebook.

Some pics, stolen from trail damage, to show what we're up against.

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/built-up_trail.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/burned_trees.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/close_brush.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/crack.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/curve.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/downhill.jpghttp://www.traildamage.com/trails/metberry_gulch/070922/kendall_working_on_some_rocks_part_1.jpg

btw; we take Stump road to the trail head, but this adds an hour each way so if you know a faster way to get there we'd appreciate it.

Very cool you guys keep getting out there!

http://www.traildamage.com/trails/index.php?id=209

It's rated a 4. We haven't been down there since the Hayman Fire in 2002. The trail reopened in 2007. The trail is easy, but the last half is very steep. Unless there has been a lot of run off this should be a pretty easy run. I think a FDII will not have problems. FDI might, if you show up make sure you have recovery points on the front. I fear we might have to pull a Patriot up the hill due to the lack of low gearing. I suppose we could pull one up backwards, but that just makes a bad situation worse.



How would this compare to the trail (68J) around Gross Reservoir?

Very cool you guys keep getting out there!

yeah the goal is at least once a week. Just wish the snow would hurry and melt so we could start doing the fun trails instead of busting through snow drifts.


How would this compare to the trail (68J) around Gross Reservoir?

Well I don't actually know. The only time I've been to Gross Res. was with the colorado jeep peeps. As I recall you tried to come on that but the group left before you did and you ended up out there on your own. The "trail" the group followed was a dirt road until some overlook complete with outhouse. From there we hooked onto some pavement, then another dirt road that degraded a bit. Here's the vid of that day.

xTquRupAg9I

You can see that trail ended up with quite a few rocks, but nothing that gave me any problems at all, although the bigass bronco or whatever (I forget now) had some trouble in a few spots due due to an unflexy suspension.

On Metberry the only concern I have with a Patriot (keep in mind I've never seen one off the road) will be coming back up the rockslab. It's just steep. I'm expecting to be able to do it without needing 4 low, which puts my gearing at about that of a FDII patriot in low. I don't think an FDI (and/or manual tranny) would be a good idea because of this area, but if someone wants to try it, as long as the vehicle has a recovery point we can pull them out.

The other big unknown right now is trail condition. It's a very sandy area to begin with, and since the fire it's more prone to washouts now. With all the rain we got there could be some deep crack or washout that we don't even know about. I'm hoping someone brings a chainsaw just in case we need to get rid of a fallen tree (again).

yeah the goal is at least once a week. Just wish the snow would hurry and melt so we could start doing the fun trails instead of busting through snow drifts.




Well I don't actually know. The only time I've been to Gross Res. was with the colorado jeep peeps. As I recall you tried to come on that but the group left before you did and you ended up out there on your own. The "trail" the group followed was a dirt road until some overlook complete with outhouse. From there we hooked onto some pavement, then another dirt road that degraded a bit. Here's the vid of that day.

xTquRupAg9I

You can see that trail ended up with quite a few rocks, but nothing that gave me any problems at all, although the bigass bronco or whatever (I forget now) had some trouble in a few spots due due to an unflexy suspension.

On Metberry the only concern I have with a Patriot (keep in mind I've never seen one off the road) will be coming back up the rockslab. It's just steep. I'm expecting to be able to do it without needing 4 low, which puts my gearing at about that of a FDII patriot in low. I don't think an FDI (and/or manual tranny) would be a good idea because of this area, but if someone wants to try it, as long as the vehicle has a recovery point we can pull them out.

The other big unknown right now is trail condition. It's a very sandy area to begin with, and since the fire it's more prone to washouts now. With all the rain we got there could be some deep crack or washout that we don't even know about. I'm hoping someone brings a chainsaw just in case we need to get rid of a fallen tree (again).

Yup, that looks like 68j. We touched bottom once on the rocky stuff close to the beginning, but other than that we walked right thru it.

On a side note, that day I was so determined to catch the group that we somehow actually got ahead of them. Found that out from the guy who owned the burnt orange rubicon 4 door that was in the clearing waiting to come down when we came up. He met Joe that day, and came to the Shine and Show the next week. His wife and mine were talking, and they remembered us and were surprised that we got up that with no trouble. My wife said he jokingly mentioned something about wasting his money on a rubicon.:pepper:
Was kinda fun going down the other side, with that big crack in the middle.

Anyways, as far as steep goes I know it's hard to tell from pics, but I did manage to get the FDII up a fairly steep mine tailing last week. There's a pic of it in that other thread. Using the utility pole in the background as a reference (I know, not a great one), it's probably about 45 degrees which is about all it will do. Let me know how you think it compares with the rock slab.

You came down the other side of that clearing on the top where the huge crack was? Man I was teetering between front right in the air and left rear in the air as I dropped into one of the holes on that crack I believe it's at 11:53 in that video. Did you go around that? Did you drag anything?

Anyways, as far as steep goes I know it's hard to tell from pics, but I did manage to get the FDII up a fairly steep mine tailing last week. There's a pic of it in that other thread. Using the utility pole in the background as a reference (I know, not a great one), it's probably about 45 degrees which is about all it will do. Let me know how you think it compares with the rock slab.

This pic here?
http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=684&pictureid=4091

That looks pretty steep so I think you'll be fine. So as long as there's not some big washout or a new exposed rock, I don't think you'll have an issue.

You came down the other side of that clearing on the top where the huge crack was? Man I was teetering between front right in the air and left rear in the air as I dropped into one of the holes on that crack I believe it's at 11:53 in that video. Did you go around that? Did you drag anything?

Yup, went down it, did the teetering thing too. I've found the Pat to be very good at it. The VW Toureg we were following lifted it's left rear wheel well over 2 feet off the ground when it went through it.
We copied pretty much every line he took including this one except I didn't steer into into the hole as far as he did. I wasn't worried about the vehicle handling it, it had to do with potential passenger discomfort. We might have dragged had we gone all the way down, but as it was we didn't.

I may be wrong, but it seems like the FDII has almost as much clearance as a stock Rubicon (10" vs 9") as long as the approach/departure angles don't come into play.

This pic here?
http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=684&pictureid=4091

That looks pretty steep so I think you'll be fine. So as long as there's not some big washout or a new exposed rock, I don't think you'll have an issue.

Yes, that's the one.

Here's a link to a thread on another forum where some guys ran Metberry and Hackett on May 21st.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/off-roading-trails/158448-gulches.html

their photobucket

http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/hollidayinn/The%20Gulches/

Nope won't be able to make it sorry. I got a hike that morning off of rampart range road. I think sandstone should know what I am talking about. Just going with a few friends :)

Steepness doesnt matter that much to the fd1, its when you have steepness with obstacles that a low gear being able to slowly go over those rocks help. Even just obstacles on a flat surface are hard without the low gear.

Nope won't be able to make it sorry. I got a hike that morning off of rampart range road. I think sandstone should know what I am talking about. Just going with a few friends :)


Oh, so that's how it is, eh? You go off on a nice hike with friends while I get fed to the lions. See how ya are! lol

Here's a link to a thread on another forum where some guys ran Metberry and Hackett on May 21st.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/off-roading-trails/158448-gulches.html

their photobucket

http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/hollidayinn/The%20Gulches/

With this usual disclaimer of " Can't tell for sure since I'm just looking at online pics", I see a couple of things that might be a problem. On the rock slab, I can't tell for sure if there's a problem with approach angle going back up. Guess I'll bring a real shovel just in case.

Also, that small bump in the rock slab just up from the bottom might just be enough to set stuckcow=1.:mad:

Farther down the pics (Hacketts?) I see another possible approach angle problem, but it's likely easier to deal with.

Lastly, I really do hope someone brings a chainsaw. Some of those trees look like it wouldn't take much to lay them over.

Oh, so that's how it is, eh? You go off on a nice hike with friends while I get fed to the lions. See how ya are! lol

Yes! to the wolves! The goal is to get you down the rock slab then leave you there to fish and camp for the rest of the summer. This is an evil genius plan, I can assure you.

On the rock slab, I can't tell for sure if there's a problem with approach angle going back up. Guess I'll bring a real shovel just in case.

Also, that small bump in the rock slab just up from the bottom might just be enough to set stuckcow=1.:mad:

Farther down the pics (Hacketts?) I see another possible approach angle problem, but it's likely easier to deal with.

Lastly, I really do hope someone brings a chainsaw. Some of those trees look like it wouldn't take much to lay them over.

A lot of the pics of the "good stuff" is from Hackett. Check out the video of some landrovers running Metberry. The entire video is the technical sections of Metberry. Again it doesn't give you a really good reference, but you can get a bit of an idea. My biggest concern will be getting you off of the rockslab then back onto it on the way out. If you can get onto the rock slab at the bottom and you go into the stuck cow mode, a quick tug will get you moving again. I did see a video someplace of a stock 2000-ish blazer getting down the slab though, so I think I'll be fine. Surely a Jeep is better then a blazer.
4L-TGqoEOk0

Yes! to the wolves! The goal is to get you down the rock slab then leave you there to fish and camp for the rest of the summer. This is an evil genius plan, I can assure you.



Oh my, whatever shall I do! Someone please don't help me! :D

Yes! to the wolves! The goal is to get you down the rock slab then leave you there to fish and camp for the rest of the summer. This is an evil genius plan, I can assure you.

A lot of the pics of the "good stuff" is from Hackett. Check out the video of some landrovers running Metberry. The entire video is the technical sections of Metberry. Again it doesn't give you a really good reference, but you can get a bit of an idea. My biggest concern will be getting you off of the rockslab then back onto it on the way out. If you can get onto the rock slab at the bottom and you go into the stuck cow mode, a quick tug will get you moving again. I did see a video someplace of a stock 2000-ish blazer getting down the slab though, so I think I'll be fine. Surely a Jeep is better then a blazer.


Thanks for the video, it helps. If the rock slab is like that I don't think it will be too much a problem. That mud hole with the logs might be another story.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Colorado-4-wheeling/128649863819394

"We got a Patriot confirmed to be coming with. Everyone, bring your straps and your cameras. maybe some shovels, cans of fix a flat, extra rocks for stacking, boards to make bridges with......"

Man, I hope I don't spoil the run.....:)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Colorado-4-wheeling/128649863819394

"We got a Patriot confirmed to be coming with. Everyone, bring your straps and your cameras. maybe some shovels, cans of fix a flat, extra rocks for stacking, boards to make bridges with......"

Man, I hope I don't spoil the run.....:)

LOL oh man you found it! Since we're just a bunch of wranglers, can we put the extra cans of gas in your vehicle? I'm just kidding.

We'd never push you to do something you're not completely comfortable with. We all carry recovery gear and air compressors. We don't drink on the trail or do any of those shenanigans. We promise to do everything we can to keep you and your vehicle safe. If it ever gets into a place you're not comfortable, you can park it and find a shotgun seat if you like, or I'll follow you back out so you won't be alone. Mike is the guy running this trip, when he's not out wheeling one of his many jeeps, he's doing the RC crawling (http://www.rccrawler.com/) thing. He used to run a film business where he'd go out with off road groups and professionally film their runs. If you need a spotter, there's no one better.

Sure, just make all this sound even more fun, thanks.

I think you might surprised with the Patriot, just watch your lines well.

"LOL oh man you found it!"....

Well, you > did < post the facebook page...LOL


"We promise to do everything we can to keep you and your vehicle safe."

Hahaha.. You better, it's my wife's daily drive and she's coming with.



No worries, people. We're all just having fun, or soon to be.:D

I have a compressor as well as a bottle of green slime fix a flat. I got a tow strap too, cuz you never know when you or your Wrangler buddy will need one.

MrM, you get to spot me cuz you got me into this, dude. We go down together. :)

We're piling up the gear for tomorrow now, so if there's something else I should bring let me know.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-khmsE7U-EGs/TfVde9FpMiI/AAAAAAAABBw/evOL6U1RAEM/s640/IMG_1372.JPG
more to come

Ok so..... trip report, from my perspective. Sandstone probably can add more Patriot specifics if he wishes.

We met up and hung out for a bit waiting on a TJ who turned out to be a no show. Our group was a JK unlimited with a 2 inch budget boost and new 32" Goodyear duratracs, a TJ with a 2 inch budget boost and 32" duratracs (tires of choice around here?), myself a stock TJ Rubicon with 30" BFG T/A KOs (I wish I had bought the duratracs), and Sandstone in his FDII with I believe the stock tires. We stopped as a group and the Wranglers dropped the air (20lbs in the JK and TJ, 15 in the Rubicon) and I dropped the windshield just because I can.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8MoYvUQlQ7U/TfVdhcXQ7AI/AAAAAAAABCM/WQE1GVw5BfA/s512/IMG_1377.JPG
Right off the start of the trail head the forest service had placed some logs around a stream to help prevent erosion that someone must've sat in spinning their tires. I dropped into it and decided I wanted to smash my gas tank skid on that log. I then proceeded to spin some tires and make a big "I'm stuck!" production. :doh: Pulled it into 4 wheel drive, crawled out then tried to gather the shattered bits of my ego. We repositioned the logs a bit and I recommended everyone hang to the left to avoid the huge holes someone had dug and everyone made it through without much drama.
We continued down though the trail and since I was leading I can't comment on much excitement until we got near the bottom. The other TJ and I ran up to do a small hill climb so we lost our front positions which put me into a position to watch the rest of the group going down through the more technical bits.
Here's Sandstone just heading down a long steep loose hill.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-adyMiz5270U/TfVdXv-bNlI/AAAAAAAABA0/une9Ek6UO4U/s640/IMG_1358.JPG
And the same hill from the seat of the Rubicon, pictures never do these things justice but you can sort of see the loose gravel on the trail.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lz93kWu6P9g/TfVdYFCVoJI/AAAAAAAABA4/tqxigTiupDE/s512/IMG_1359.JPG
When we got down to the rock slab, the JK and the TJ went down leaving just Sandstone and I at the top when a very large group of FJ Cruisers showed up. They seemed to be on pace for a highspeed run so we let them ahead. I'm not sure how those vehicles are geared, but every time I see one off road they seem to be moving very fast, and this was no different. Their trail guide was telling them something along the lines of "don't stop, keeping moving fast" and it looked to be just an accident waiting to happen.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PuxnVPWYsuI/TfVdbBm_kUI/AAAAAAAABBQ/2D2OGkDHQ1U/s640/IMG_1365.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LX0KNLTziD0/TfVdbmChlcI/AAAAAAAABBU/L8nR3nCZoCI/s640/IMG_1366.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O1WJG9J0K9E/TfVdcJ56qlI/AAAAAAAABBY/T_39Adz7KFE/s640/IMG_1367.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H5h2-07IsHU/TfVdcrMR6jI/AAAAAAAABBc/ezcGCsHlwec/s640/IMG_1368.JPG
Then it was Sandstone's turn. I'm hoping he'll chime in here because I don't know what was going on in the vehicle. I was at the top of the slab in the Rubicon going down and from my perspective we saw the rear tires lock up and start to slide sideways putting him completely out of his planned line.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nROlukNNZ_A/TfVddCwsOKI/AAAAAAAABBg/prMKHPvWoBU/s640/IMG_1369.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JYNvWCUHoHk/TfVdd3YYqCI/AAAAAAAABBk/gZLrGAMvvF8/s640/IMG_1370.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oMJAwYuSEZ8/TfVdeUjc6cI/AAAAAAAABBs/-olQzGFtDPs/s640/IMG_1371.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-khmsE7U-EGs/TfVde9FpMiI/AAAAAAAABBw/evOL6U1RAEM/s640/IMG_1372.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-x62z91Xb5sE/TfVdfVerQuI/AAAAAAAABB8/K6UcDFLlWzQ/s640/IMG_1373.JPG
The tire did get much higher off the ground, but the digital camera wasn't fast enough to capture it. We should have this on video that will be up in a few days. But he made it out unscathed and I think no more worse for wear.
Then the Rubicon had to come down, and I'm telling you, the transfer case that Jeep stole from John Deere or where ever just makes things like this boring. 4 low, first gear, turn on the lockers and then you can take a nap while the vehicle sorts itself out.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XCz-Mub_6M0/TfVdgLmCGXI/AAAAAAAABCA/9yqKQGRx70U/s640/IMG_1374.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HEICh3WPdPc/TfVdgZdiP1I/AAAAAAAABCE/_0EY9_nODYo/s640/IMG_1375.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kLKj8fy7zmM/TfVdg1r_81I/AAAAAAAABCI/l77F6mHBHDw/s640/IMG_1376.JPG

The trip back out was filled with much more adventure, but my wife and I didn't snap any pics. The rock slab that I thought was going to be the most difficult part for the Patriot, no problem. That little Pat just walked right up it. There was a bit of trouble on a hill or two due primarily to the loose gravel. But I wouldn't feel to bad Sandstone. I went out and found the FJ Cruiser's web forum and someone in their group had to back all of the way down that long hill, which I'm sure wasn't fun considering you can't hardly see out of those vehicles. Apparently they were on street tires as well and had to get a long running start to get out of there.

My favorite part of the trip was when the JK got stuck. It took him three or four attempts and a lot of the right peddle to make it through one tiny section which had me very concerned for how the Patriot was going to do, and there very little room for us to work a proper recovery without risking body damage. Turns out there was nothing to worry about though as the Patriot walked right through the area on it's first attempt. The TJ also was momentarily delayed in this same spot. The Rubicon of course had no trouble. Where everyone else had problems, the Rubicon just walked through it without breaking a sweat. I had never been told I was hated as much as I was today.

Overall it was a great time, the Patriot did impress. A number of bystanders sadly made comments but the little cross over that could proved itself to be a very capable off road machine keeping up with, and even out performing in at least one instance, the slightly modified Wranglers.

So here's where I decide to get flamed.... Shortfalls I observed of the Patriot, listed by my priority.

1st: The suspension does not have enough travel in it. It doesn't take much for a tire to leave the ground.

2nd: Brake locking differential is not aggressive enough. It seems to do fine when one tire is in the air or has lost traction, but when a front and a rear tire are both in the air the system seems to give up.

3rd: tires need to be more aggressive to help in the low traction situations. Airing down would probably help but you lose some ride height which brings me to....

4th: ride height. The vehicle is simply not high enough. While the approach and departure angles never seemed to be an issue, the low break over angle let itself be known several times. Increasing the ride height slightly would provide more confidence on the obstacles.

5th: body protection. These things need strong functional rock rails that are capable of supporting the weight of the vehicle and taking some hard hits on the rocks.

Great photos, can't wait for the videos.

Your observations are correct on the Patriot, as most of us have said it's not a "true" off-road vehicle, but has some great capabilities. More clearance would help for sure.

I can't wait to hear from Sandstone as to how it felt for him, did the down hill crawl help, did he have ESP partial or full off, etc?

This is why I want a couple inches of lift and bigger tires for the clearance, (I also consider rock rails) but I also bought the Pat as my daily driver and need the mileage. Too bad so many things in life are a compromise.

Great photos, can't wait for the videos.

Your observations are correct on the Patriot, as most of us have said it's not a "true" off-road vehicle, but has some great capabilities. More clearance would help for sure.

I can't wait to hear from Sandstone as to how it felt for him, did the down hill crawl help, did he have ESP partial or full off, etc?

This is why I want a couple inches of lift and bigger tires for the clearance, (I also consider rock rails) but I also bought the Pat as my daily driver and need the mileage. Too bad so many things in life are a compromise.

I asked him about the downhill crawl thingy, and as I understood him he turns that off. He said it had a mind of its own and he didn't like how sometimes it worked and other times didn't.

One thing I was thinking about this morning with the Pat, even in FDII it seemed to be geared to high. It was fine probably 90% of the time, but coming out of there on the steep hills the 19:1 final drive really seemed to work the motor. If you put on larger tires you're going to have an even worse time. I don't know how you can handle this gearing issue without completely ruining the on road fuel economy. I guess it just needs a t-case.

1st: The suspension does not have enough travel in it. It doesn't take much for a tire to leave the ground.

2nd: Brake locking differential is not aggressive enough. It seems to do fine when one tire is in the air or has lost traction, but when a front and a rear tire are both in the air the system seems to give up.

3rd: tires need to be more aggressive to help in the low traction situations. Airing down would probably help but you lose some ride height which brings me to....

4th: ride height. The vehicle is simply not high enough. While the approach and departure angles never seemed to be an issue, the low break over angle let itself be known several times. Increasing the ride height slightly would provide more confidence on the obstacles.

5th: body protection. These things need strong functional rock rails that are capable of supporting the weight of the vehicle and taking some hard hits on the rocks.

Yeah that suspension doesn't really have much give. I went with a grand cherokee over the weekend and his definitely did better with this aspect.

I am still not sold on the brake lock, I saw sandstone struggle a little bit a while back on a hill. I am not sure how they work but they aren't as good as lockers.

I think sandstone's tires are adequate but airing down a bit would help.

The ride height really isn't too bad, i think the aproach and departure angles really are pretty good but ground clearance is a bit low especially with aired down tires. But it is what it is and not bad for a stock jeep.

Look like you guys had a lot of fun, too bad I couldn't go. I probably wouldn't be able to finish a trail this crazy anyways.

I wish you could have, would have been good to see what the 5 sp manual could do.

Look like you guys had a lot of fun, too bad I couldn't go. I probably wouldn't be able to finish a trail this crazy anyways.

My money is strongly on no, you couldn't.

I wish you could have, would have been good to see what the 5 sp manual could do.

I'm figuring the clutch would smoke until it completely failed, then we'd have a difficult time recovering the vehicle without damaging it further. Don't get me wrong, we could get one down there without much difficulty. Getting back out though...

Had a great time yesterday! Got some sick pictures and video! Got some video of a Jeep Patriot that will blow your mind! will be editing and posting over the next couple of days!

I haven't seen the video yet, but my buddy Mike who had the go pros seems to think he caught some impressive action.

Cool, would love to see the videos.

I know what the Patriot can do off road in snow in the PA mountains. Not many other vehicles can make my driveway. Maybe some of the other Jeep folks will have some more respect for the little Riot.

Originally Posted by Colorado 4 Wheeling's facebook wall
Had a great time yesterday! Got some sick pictures and video! Got some video of a Jeep Patriot that will blow your mind! will be editing and posting over the next couple of days!

I'm looking forward to seeing this.

Too bad the area got torched in that fire. I was amazed at how much of it was actually burned, I was actually looking down on you guys hahaha, I was at the devil's head fire outlook by rampart range road. It was a great hike and a beautiful day though.

Too bad the area got torched in that fire. I was amazed at how much of it was actually burned, I was actually looking down on you guys hahaha, I was at the devil's head fire outlook by rampart range road. It was a great hike and a beautiful day though.

There was a brief discussion over the radios about the large amount of aspen trees that were never there before. I think we (meaning I) came to the conclusion that what the world needs is more forest fires so we have more aspen trees to look at in the fall.

There was a brief discussion over the radios about the large amount of aspen trees that were never there before. I think we (meaning I) came to the conclusion that what the world needs is more forest fires so we have more aspen trees to look at in the fall.

I could go on a rant about it but I will just say the general ideas. 200 years ago colorado actually contains much less forest. Since more people started living in colorado and stopping a lot of the natural fires that occur, the forest has became much denser. This in the end weakens the trees since they have to compete more for water and sunlight over the neighboring trees. This makes them more likely to burn and get infected by the pine beetle that has already destroyed much of the colorado forests. So the large fires damages and beetle damages are because of the restraint of natural fires. On the other hand with all the damaged forest, the pretty less aggressive fast growing aspen trees are making a come back.

I could go on a rant about it but I will just say the general ideas. 200 years ago colorado actually contains much less forest. Since more people started living in colorado and stopping a lot of the natural fires that occur, the forest has became much denser. This in the end weakens the trees since they have to compete more for water and sunlight over the neighboring trees. This makes them more likely to burn and get infected by the pine beetle that has already destroyed much of the colorado forests. So the large fires damages and beetle damages are because of the restraint of natural fires. On the other hand with all the damaged forest, the pretty less aggressive fast growing aspen trees are making a come back.

Thanks a lot, hippies.

Yellowstone in '88 is a good example of what happens when you let a natural fire do its thing unchecked. I agree with you mostly, but you can't just let a fire do its thing it does have to be controlled to a certain extent. Or allow logging

http://www.t-rex.ie/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/e/featured_box_test.jpg

I have some forest, and I use a Forestry guy to help manage it. Some folks believe in old growth, but those trees just die and it;s really not healthy for the forest, or the animals that live there. New growth is best for the animals.

Aspens are great for Grouse. It's a shame those are the only real fall color you folks out west get. I was in Tahoe in the fall one time, and the only color was yellow from Aspens.

You folks need to come east in the fall to see some wonderful fall colors.

I have some forest, and I use a Forestry guy to help manage it. Some folks believe in old growth, but those trees just die and it;s really not healthy for the forest, or the animals that live there. New growth is best for the animals.

Aspens are great for Grouse. It's a shame those are the only real fall color you folks out west get. I was in Tahoe in the fall one time, and the only color was yellow from Aspens.

You folks need to come east in the fall to see some wonderful fall colors.

Seeing how I have relatives out there, I just might take you up on that.

I'm looking forward to seeing this.

Me too...kinda :o

Great photos, can't wait for the videos.

Your observations are correct on the Patriot, as most of us have said it's not a "true" off-road vehicle, but has some great capabilities. More clearance would help for sure.

I can't wait to hear from Sandstone as to how it felt for him, did the down hill crawl help, did he have ESP partial or full off, etc?

This is why I want a couple inches of lift and bigger tires for the clearance, (I also consider rock rails) but I also bought the Pat as my daily driver and need the mileage. Too bad so many things in life are a compromise.

Ummm...I'd be inclined to disagree a little about the "true" off-road thing. It all depends on where you draw the line and why.

I try to keep that esp stuff at least partial if not full off, but sometimes I forget and my wife has to remind me. I do wish the switch was somewhere else by itself so I'm not mistakenly pushing the seat warmer or the hazards. But then again, if I remembered to turn it off before starting out, I probably wouldn't have that problem.

As for the Hill descent control, I don't really use it because of the way it kicks in and out. It's activated by speed, and can't sense the trail conditions ahead, and that can be a problem. Having it kicking in and out while driving down a hill with a loose surface might not be good.

Agreed on the lift, but I don't want to risk a compromise to the vehicles off-camber ability, which is one of it's strongest points and IMO what makes it as good off-road as it is. Because of the CV joints, there are limits as to how high you can go. But even if you could do say a 4" lift, I would think you would lose some of the ability to maneuver around obstacles off-camber without getting tippy. If you can't maneuver, then you would have to attack them head on, and perhaps lack the power to overcome them. Then you need an engine upgrade, and so on and so on....or a buddy with a Rubicon and a tow strap.

Coming up the rock slab, you start out on the right, then you need to move to the left a bit to get out of the sand, then near the top you need to shift right again if you want to avoid the sharper drop off, which I didn't quite do. But that's why there are skid plates, and they do work quite well. :D

And yes, some rock rails would come in handy. I just wish they weren't 80 pounds...

Tires wise, the Wrangler SR-A are all terrain but street width, and not as wide or aggressive as the tires on any of the Wranglers. Having something wider would have helped me stay on top of the sand instead of sinking and digging a hole. The more aggressive tread wouldn't have hurt either. I wouldn't go with taller tires unless they were off-road only with the idea that they would air down to about the same height as stock.

Thanks a lot, hippies.

Yellowstone in '88 is a good example of what happens when you let a natural fire do its thing unchecked. I agree with you mostly, but you can't just let a fire do its thing it does have to be controlled to a certain extent. Or allow logging

http://www.t-rex.ie/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/e/featured_box_test.jpg

Yeah you can't just let the fire do what it wants or it could burn down all the people's houses.

Ok so..... trip report, from my perspective. Sandstone probably can add more Patriot specifics if he wishes.

We met up and hung out for a bit waiting on a TJ who turned out to be a no show. Our group was a JK unlimited with a 2 inch budget boost and new 32" Goodyear duratracs, a TJ with a 2 inch budget boost and 32" duratracs (tires of choice around here?), myself a stock TJ Rubicon with 30" BFG T/A KOs (I wish I had bought the duratracs), and Sandstone in his FDII with I believe the stock tires. We stopped as a group and the Wranglers dropped the air (20lbs in the JK and TJ, 15 in the Rubicon) and I dropped the windshield just because I can.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8MoYvUQlQ7U/TfVdhcXQ7AI/AAAAAAAABCM/WQE1GVw5BfA/s512/IMG_1377.JPG
Right off the start of the trail head the forest service had placed some logs around a stream to help prevent erosion that someone must've sat in spinning their tires. I dropped into it and decided I wanted to smash my gas tank skid on that log. I then proceeded to spin some tires and make a big "I'm stuck!" production. :doh: Pulled it into 4 wheel drive, crawled out then tried to gather the shattered bits of my ego. We repositioned the logs a bit and I recommended everyone hang to the left to avoid the huge holes someone had dug and everyone made it through without much drama.
We continued down though the trail and since I was leading I can't comment on much excitement until we got near the bottom. The other TJ and I ran up to do a small hill climb so we lost our front positions which put me into a position to watch the rest of the group going down through the more technical bits.
Here's Sandstone just heading down a long steep loose hill.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-adyMiz5270U/TfVdXv-bNlI/AAAAAAAABA0/une9Ek6UO4U/s640/IMG_1358.JPG
And the same hill from the seat of the Rubicon, pictures never do these things justice but you can sort of see the loose gravel on the trail.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lz93kWu6P9g/TfVdYFCVoJI/AAAAAAAABA4/tqxigTiupDE/s512/IMG_1359.JPG
When we got down to the rock slab, the JK and the TJ went down leaving just Sandstone and I at the top when a very large group of FJ Cruisers showed up. They seemed to be on pace for a highspeed run so we let them ahead. I'm not sure how those vehicles are geared, but every time I see one off road they seem to be moving very fast, and this was no different. Their trail guide was telling them something along the lines of "don't stop, keeping moving fast" and it looked to be just an accident waiting to happen.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PuxnVPWYsuI/TfVdbBm_kUI/AAAAAAAABBQ/2D2OGkDHQ1U/s640/IMG_1365.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LX0KNLTziD0/TfVdbmChlcI/AAAAAAAABBU/L8nR3nCZoCI/s640/IMG_1366.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O1WJG9J0K9E/TfVdcJ56qlI/AAAAAAAABBY/T_39Adz7KFE/s640/IMG_1367.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-H5h2-07IsHU/TfVdcrMR6jI/AAAAAAAABBc/ezcGCsHlwec/s640/IMG_1368.JPG
Then it was Sandstone's turn. I'm hoping he'll chime in here because I don't know what was going on in the vehicle. I was at the top of the slab in the Rubicon going down and from my perspective we saw the rear tires lock up and start to slide sideways putting him completely out of his planned line.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nROlukNNZ_A/TfVddCwsOKI/AAAAAAAABBg/prMKHPvWoBU/s640/IMG_1369.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JYNvWCUHoHk/TfVdd3YYqCI/AAAAAAAABBk/gZLrGAMvvF8/s640/IMG_1370.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oMJAwYuSEZ8/TfVdeUjc6cI/AAAAAAAABBs/-olQzGFtDPs/s640/IMG_1371.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-khmsE7U-EGs/TfVde9FpMiI/AAAAAAAABBw/evOL6U1RAEM/s640/IMG_1372.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-x62z91Xb5sE/TfVdfVerQuI/AAAAAAAABB8/K6UcDFLlWzQ/s640/IMG_1373.JPG
The tire did get much higher off the ground, but the digital camera wasn't fast enough to capture it. We should have this on video that will be up in a few days. But he made it out unscathed and I think no more worse for wear.
Then the Rubicon had to come down, and I'm telling you, the transfer case that Jeep stole from John Deere or where ever just makes things like this boring. 4 low, first gear, turn on the lockers and then you can take a nap while the vehicle sorts itself out.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XCz-Mub_6M0/TfVdgLmCGXI/AAAAAAAABCA/9yqKQGRx70U/s640/IMG_1374.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HEICh3WPdPc/TfVdgZdiP1I/AAAAAAAABCE/_0EY9_nODYo/s640/IMG_1375.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kLKj8fy7zmM/TfVdg1r_81I/AAAAAAAABCI/l77F6mHBHDw/s640/IMG_1376.JPG

The trip back out was filled with much more adventure, but my wife and I didn't snap any pics. The rock slab that I thought was going to be the most difficult part for the Patriot, no problem. That little Pat just walked right up it. There was a bit of trouble on a hill or two due primarily to the loose gravel. But I wouldn't feel to bad Sandstone. I went out and found the FJ Cruiser's web forum and someone in their group had to back all of the way down that long hill, which I'm sure wasn't fun considering you can't hardly see out of those vehicles. Apparently they were on street tires as well and had to get a long running start to get out of there.

My favorite part of the trip was when the JK got stuck. It took him three or four attempts and a lot of the right peddle to make it through one tiny section which had me very concerned for how the Patriot was going to do, and there very little room for us to work a proper recovery without risking body damage. Turns out there was nothing to worry about though as the Patriot walked right through the area on it's first attempt. The TJ also was momentarily delayed in this same spot. The Rubicon of course had no trouble. Where everyone else had problems, the Rubicon just walked through it without breaking a sweat. I had never been told I was hated as much as I was today.

Overall it was a great time, the Patriot did impress. A number of bystanders sadly made comments but the little cross over that could proved itself to be a very capable off road machine keeping up with, and even out performing in at least one instance, the slightly modified Wranglers.

So here's where I decide to get flamed.... Shortfalls I observed of the Patriot, listed by my priority.

1st: The suspension does not have enough travel in it. It doesn't take much for a tire to leave the ground.

2nd: Brake locking differential is not aggressive enough. It seems to do fine when one tire is in the air or has lost traction, but when a front and a rear tire are both in the air the system seems to give up.

3rd: tires need to be more aggressive to help in the low traction situations. Airing down would probably help but you lose some ride height which brings me to....

4th: ride height. The vehicle is simply not high enough. While the approach and departure angles never seemed to be an issue, the low break over angle let itself be known several times. Increasing the ride height slightly would provide more confidence on the obstacles.

5th: body protection. These things need strong functional rock rails that are capable of supporting the weight of the vehicle and taking some hard hits on the rocks.

Great write up!

On the rear brakes locking up, well that was kinda like a cook that can't leave well enough alone and has to fiddle with the mix by adding just one more change. Fortunately, the Patriot has enough capability to compensate for such indulgences. :doh:

Thanks for the comments about those sandy hills. Man, I still feel bad about getting people blasted with dirt and such from those 50mpg gusts and baking in the sun waiting for me get up out of there. :(

And ya, we got a lot of looks, finger pointing, and "friendly" tips and comments.

All in all, I learned a lot and I'm glad we went. A thanks to MrMischief and everyone else for their support and patience. You guys were great!

And secretly, I was impressed by how seemingly effortlessly that yellow Rubicon handled everything. But I'll never admit to it.:)

My money is strongly on no, you couldn't.

And I'll see you and raise double.


I'm figuring the clutch would smoke until it completely failed, then we'd have a difficult time recovering the vehicle without damaging it further. Don't get me wrong, we could get one down there without much difficulty. Getting back out though...

I'll say almost down. Those sharp rocks would not be too kind to the street radials on a stock FD1. And maneuvering around some of those areas without low range could be tough. Dropping the clutch a little too hard in certain places might cause a sideways slide into who knows what.

And that last little sandy drop off right after the rock slab was kinda bad news. To go through that without skid plates would probably cause damage.
We took a poor line through that and hit that log or whatever it was pretty hard. Hard enough to break the plastic snap ins that held the pinch weld cover on.

And I'll see you and raise double.




I'll say almost down. Those sharp rocks would not be too kind to the street radials on a stock FD1. And maneuvering around some of those areas without low range could be tough. Dropping the clutch a little too hard in certain places might cause a sideways slide into who knows what.

And that last little sandy drop off right after the rock slab was kinda bad news. To go through that without skid plates would probably cause damage.
We took a poor line through that and hit that log or whatever it was pretty hard. Hard enough to break the plastic snap ins that held the pinch weld cover on.

Yeah I think I'll just stick to the easier trails lol but I will have an opportunity to do the lake como/blanca peak trail later this summer, not that I will even try lol. I know the ability level of my pat and I don't intend on going on anything harder than that. I just like messing around on some light offroading trails with friends and enjoy the scenery.

It sounds like you got some trail damage there sandstone, and when are you getting your lift? lol

Yeah I think I'll just stick to the easier trails lol but I will have an opportunity to do the lake como/blanca peak trail later this summer, not that I will even try lol. I know the ability level of my pat and I don't intend on going on anything harder than that. I just like messing around on some light offroading trails with friends and enjoy the scenery.

It sounds like you got some trail damage there sandstone, and when are you getting your lift? lol

Maybe sometime if your up for it, we can take another run up Ute creek by Idaho Springs after the snow clears off the trails. You can have a go at that mine tailing pile and I'll do the video. That would be a fun challenge that wouldn't pose much risk of damage.

Yep, broke the snaps on the pinch weld cover. Didn't crack the cover tho, so maybe I can fix it. But no other damage that I could see or hear.

The Stu's Coils are here! Just need to get them in..

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=696&pictureid=4136

Sandstone, ty for your reply. I agree with all you've said, my only reason for even a couple more inches of clearance would be to avoid getting high centered on snow. Which is something I have to deal with all winter, especially on my driveway.

I can say, and now you can too, that the Patriot has done better than most other 4wd vehicles, for me. And I can get 20 some MPG on my drive to work every day too. And when other folks are sweating the weather forecasts in the winter, I just smile and know that know matter what, I can make it (even if I have to throw the chains on).

And anyone who comes to PA, let me know and if we can we'll hook up, and the fall leaves are wonderful. Although in the fall you mostly find me IN a tree, with my bow.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4147http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4146http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4145http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4144http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4143http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4142http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4141http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4140http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4139http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4138http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=4137

nice pictures, i heard a rumor there was a video, that would be cool to see too lol.

nice pictures, i heard a rumor there was a video, that would be cool to see too lol.

My buddy said it should be uploaded tonight

hjLzQVPKk3Q

Aw man, no fair leaving in where I got stuck but not where the JK and TJ struggled but I breezed thru....

LOL I agree. I don't like how Mike edited this one. But looking at the strap when you were "stuck" I still am not convinced that you were stuck. But it is safer and easier to just take the strap (straps? all three of them..... :-) ) then keep pushing yourself into a potentially worse situation.

Man I hate the Rubicon. Everyone else goes flying down that slab, then finally here comes the Rubicon. I had time for a sandwich. And I was on the gas coming down that thing.

LOL I agree. I don't like how Mike edited this one. But looking at the strap when you were "stuck" I still am not convinced that you were stuck. But it is safer and easier to just take the strap (straps? all three of them..... :-) ) then keep pushing yourself into a potentially worse situation.

Yep, and considering the distance to get back, time also gets to be an issue. Not to mention wear and tear on everyone with the wind, the dirt and the heat.

And no, it wasn't all three straps, just two...:p


Man I hate the Rubicon. Everyone else goes flying down that slab, then finally here comes the Rubicon. I had time for a sandwich. And I was on the gas coming down that thing.

Can I have the tires? :D

blahhh a grand cherry made it?? :| I could have done that then. Getting back up the slab could have been different. I wonder if it made it back up without getting towed. And sandstone??? you never said you had to be towed :P

blahhh a grand cherry made it?? :| I could have done that then. Getting back up the slab could have been different. I wonder if it made it back up without getting towed. And sandstone??? you never said you had to be towed :P

Turns out the slab wasn't the worst part. There were some deep holes dug in the soft pea gravel (I think the forest service is dropping that to help reduce erosion) that had even the wranglers floating tires. No problem for those of us rolling with lockers, but everyone had sections where they had problems at. Mine just happened to be at the gate into the trail. I never liked that gas tank anyways.

As for the grand, she was running with the FJ group. From what I found on their forum she made it without any problem but a couple of FJs had problems.

Turns out the slab wasn't the worst part. There were some deep holes dug in the soft pea gravel (I think the forest service is dropping that to help reduce erosion) that had even the wranglers floating tires. No problem for those of us rolling with lockers, but everyone had sections where they had problems at. Mine just happened to be at the gate into the trail. I never liked that gas tank anyways.



I read through the FJ trip postings and as far as I know the Grand made it ok, but bottomed out hard on the slab sorta like I did. Not good without skids.

Good video, makes me want to come out and play too. A lot of those trails looked easier than my driveway, and the places where I saw you with a strap, didn't look too bad either, although I know that videos sometimes do not look as bad as the real thing.

Good for you getting the Patriot out there though. I still think just a couple inches more clearance would help me. Still thinking of a small lift on my next one, doubt I'll do anything more to my 08 as I'm looking to trade it.

Are you going to get a 2011? Yeah video is hard to get right, its one of those things you have to be there in person.

I am thinking of going on a hike this weekend with some light offroading again, Grizzly gulch road is where I am likely going to be going. I heard its a bit rough but its a hike I've always wanted to do.

Good video, makes me want to come out and play too. A lot of those trails looked easier than my driveway, and the places where I saw you with a strap, didn't look too bad either, although I know that videos sometimes do not look as bad as the real thing.

Good for you getting the Patriot out there though. I still think just a couple inches more clearance would help me. Still thinking of a small lift on my next one, doubt I'll do anything more to my 08 as I'm looking to trade it.

Yes, seriously looking to trade my 08 for an 11, same thing, Sport FDII.

lol no bells or whistles? i like the power windows and locks mine has. I finally just got it cleaned yesterday, it was so dirty from dirt roads in moab.

I really don't like power windows and locks, just more to go wrong, and 99% or more of the time I'm the only one in it. And most days, the doors aren't locked as it's parked right in front of the door here at work, or in my car port at home.

Mine gets muddy every weekend, and I stop every Sunday on my way back to Pittsburgh and give it a light wash, just to remove the bugs and mud. The clay we have is tough to get off the tires though, need a good scrub brush and time for that. And in the winter, I stop to wash the salt off too.

On second thought, I might not do grizzly gulch trail. I bet its pretty snowpacked with some deep stream crossings. I am not sure if my jeep would make it. I kind of want to try though :P

On July 9th a group that I follow is doing a night run down Metberry. They'll go down in the evening, then head back up after dark. PM me if you're interested and I'll give you the group's info.