I am sure you all want to know how the Patriot does on the trail.

I have a month in the Freedom Drive II units and have tested them in everything from rocks to 12" deep snow. I have been so impressed that I spent a few hours today compiling my images and producing a technical review on the Patriot. Let me know if you have any questions.

Technical Trail Report (http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/index.htm)

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/images/Jeep_Patriot_01.JPG

Great review. Glad you enjoyed your ride.

Now thats what I'm talking about. Thats a great piece. Thank you for such a great article and truly putting the jeep to the test. Loved the Pics and the time taken to capture so many.

Now can my POS Ford hold out till the FDII come out.

ExpeditionWest,

I have several questions you may be able to answer:

1.) In your opinion, what is the limiting factor in the Patriot. In other words, what is the first thing to fail on the trails? Lack of torque, lack of ground clearance, traction, etc?

2.) Is it possible to add a lift to this vehicle, even though it has already been lifted 1"? If so, how much do you think this would have increased its performance? If it had a 2.5 - 3" lift would it have made it through the snow covered course that required a winch?

3.) Compare this vehicle to the current Liberty. Also, Grand Vitara...

4.) Is this vehicle worth modifying? Lift kit, bigger tires, new fender (approach angle/winch), K&N air filter...etc?

5.) Lastly, would this vehicle work with an ARB locker?

I enjoyed the review and pics. Good to know that the Patriot is indeed a capable off-road rig

ExpeditionWest,

I have several questions you may be able to answer:

1.) In your opinion, what is the limiting factor in the Patriot. In other words, what is the first thing to fail on the trails? Lack of torque, lack of ground clearance, traction, etc?

Gearing. Either adding a helical LSD in the rear or deeper CVT gearing (or both) would be the next step for the platform. Anything else and it would create a cascading series of compromises, like reduced economy, poor handling, etc.

Even though it is best in class, it is still a 4cyl powered cross-over SUV. For what it is, I am very impressed with the overall balance of trail performance, economy and handling.

2.) Is it possible to add a lift to this vehicle, even though it has already been lifted 1"? If so, how much do you think this would have increased its performance? If it had a 2.5 - 3" lift would it have made it through the snow covered course that required a winch?

-- It has struts on all corners. Adding new (longer) springs would be easy to do, but remember the limits of IFS. As you gain height, you are only increasing compression travel at the cost of extension travel. Fortunately, the Patriot suspension design does have good travel numbers, so another 1" of lift would be a good fit, especially if the spring rate was consistent with the load you carried.

-- Additional lift would not have affected the winch recovery. The hill was at the limits of traction with the snow. It was safer for the vehicle to pull cable and with the falling snow, I knew there was still miles of terrain to cover.

3.) Compare this vehicle to the current Liberty. Also, Grand Vitara...?

-- The liberty has a V6 and true low-range, but no better maneuverability or dimensions. Liberty has good aftermarket support. The Liberty has a slight trail advantage, but much less economy and road performance.

-- I like the new Grand Vitara, but it has none of the skid plates and over 1" less ground clearance. The engine and drivetrain really push it into a different classification (lower fuel economy too).

-- The Patriot's competition is in the economy, cross-over segment, which includes the CRV, RAV4, Tucson, Escape, etc.

4.) Is this vehicle worth modifying? Lift kit, bigger tires, new fender (approach angle/winch), K&N air filter...etc?

-- Sure! If I had one, I would add light duty rock sliders, a rack, front and rear (exhaust) skid plates and slightly larger tires. Maybe a 1" lift. I would keep the modifications simple and just enjoy the high-speed dirt performance and economy.

5.) Lastly, would this vehicle work with an ARB locker?

-- A helical LSD would be a better choice IMHO and allow for some mechanical advantage to the traction control. I use ARB's in all of my vehicles, but the modification market will be too small for ARB to play here. Helical diff's and traction control is a sweet combo.

Not to bother you with another question, but how would you say this compares to a stock 1997-2001 Jeep Cherokee/ XJ off roading and overall?

EXCELLENT WRITE-UP! Adding to the homepage. I'm sure there's lots of folks who'd love to read this.

Thanks for the review and great pics!!....I notice that the Khaki colored Patriot didn't have a trail rated badge while the green and black one did....

1. ...just wondering if you are you able to notice the 1 inch difference in ground clearance between the trail rated and non trail rated Patriot when you are looking at them with the naked eye?

2. ....was there a huge difference in real world performance between the trail rated and non trail rated Patriot?

Thanks for the review and great pics!!....I notice that the Khaki colored Patriot didn't have a trail rated badge while the green and black one did....

They were both trail rated, just an early series

Not to bother you with another question, but how would you say this compares to a stock 1997-2001 Jeep Cherokee/ XJ off roading and overall?

This is a great question. I am a huge fan of the XJ, for many reasons (looks, functionality, weight, etc.).

There is a 20 year contrast in technology, and I would take the Patriot in stock form. The performance (handling), economy, comfort, dampening and most importantly- safety (SRS, side impact, ESP) are light years ahead.

Just spend ten minutes on a corrugated road and you will be a believer :)

There are also times when the Patriot will outperform the XJ on the trail. In crossed axle terrain (traction control) and at high speed.

But, the Cherokee has endless aftermarket support, and can be made into any flavor you want, from a JeepSpeed SCORE truck to a 4+ Rock Crawler, and anything in between.

If you want pure trail performance, buy and mod the XJ. For the other 99% of driving most people do, buy the Patriot. The Patriot does the other 99% so much better.

I am a hopeless traditionalist when it comes to 4wds, but I really fell for the Patriot. It is a cross-over that looks good (functional) and can run 2-2.5 trails all day long with an experienced driver. Then get back on the highway and smile as you get 30 mpg with the seat warmers on and the Sat radio kicking out of the Boston Acoustic stereo :D

Adding new (longer) springs would be easy to do, but remember the limits of IFS. As you gain height, you are only increasing compression travel at the cost of extension travel. Fortunately, the Patriot suspension design does have good travel numbers, so another 1" of lift would be a good fit, especially if the spring rate was consistent with the load you carried.



Can you explain this concept to me...I don't understand.

-- A helical LSD would be a better choice IMHO and allow for some mechanical advantage to the traction control. I use ARB's in all of my vehicles, but the modification market will be too small for ARB to play here. Helical diff's and traction control is a sweet combo.

How do these helical LSD's work in the snow and ice? I thought I read somewhere that it takes an experienced driver to keep a vehicle under control with a limited-slip in icy conditions.

Independent front suspensions operate within a range, from compression jounce (bump stop) to extension (limited by jounce or shock length).

There are essentially three dimension you work with:

Compressed measurement
Extension (full droop) measurement
Static ride height

For example, lets say the Patriot has 8" of total suspension range, from compression to full extension. The static ride height is usually somewhere in the middle, typically favoring more compression.

If you add a longer spring, you only change the static ride height variable, as the compression and extension limits of the suspension are still the same (and expensive to modify).

So if you start out with 3" of extension and 4" of compression and you want to add 1" of lift, you end up with 5" of compression and 2" of extension as the basic suspension limits have not changed.

Too many people do not know this limit of independent suspensions, and they end up with a poor riding vehicle (with no extension travel left).

Just remember, ever inch of additional ride height will cost you an inch of extension travel, unless other suspension modifications are made, but then you start to reach the limits of the CV axles operating range (angle of operation).

Hope this helped

How do these helical LSD's work in the snow and ice? I thought I read somewhere that it takes an experienced driver to keep a vehicle under control with a limited-slip in icy conditions.

They work great in the rear as they only respond to heavy wheel speed differentiation (one wheel must start to clock different to cause the helical gears to ride up against the case walls). I would not recommend them for the front due to understeer issues.

With 4wd and ESP, a helical geared LSD in the rear would be a hot ticket on snow and ice.

Thanks for the outstanding write up expeditionswest!!!!!! :D

The Patroit keeps getting better and better!!!! :D

Thanks Expedition West, we were eagerly waiting for that! I can't wait until the Patriots hit dealerships en masse.

Great testing and great report, ExpeditionsWest. Glad to see the "Deep Sand" part, as that's been my biggest concern as love to surf fish. Seen lots of drivers and lots of vehicles that did great elsewhere but couldn't make it in the sand.
If it did fine at street tire pressure, it should definitely be ok dropped down to 18-20 PSI on the shore. Thanks again. Guess I'm sold!

Thanks for all of the kind feedback everyone :)

Then get back on the highway and smile as you get 30 mpg with the seat warmers on and the Sat radio kicking out of the Boston Acoustic stereo :D

Hello ExpeditionsWest -

Thks for the comprehensive review. I am considering this puppy. One thing though - doesn't the trail rated version of the Patriot get substantially less mileage per gallon than the standard FWD? I thought I read somewhere that it's rated at 21/23 vs 26/30 for the FWD manual. Unfortunately that seems the norm with ORVs - less miles per gallon.

GB

Hello ExpeditionsWest -

Thks for the comprehensive review. I am considering this puppy. One thing though - doesn't the trail rated version of the Patriot get substantially less mileage per gallon than the standard FWD? I thought I read somewhere that it's rated at 21/23 vs 26/30 for the FWD manual. Unfortunately that seems the norm with ORVs - less miles per gallon.

GB

yep, thats correct on the mpg

The trail-rated mpg of the Patriot is the reason I removed it from my final choice when I was picking a vehicle. The gas wasn't terribly bad, but the tank is only 13.5 gallons, so I felt the combination of the 2 would lead to lots of trips to the gas station. Plus I live in Oregon where it's against the law to pump your own gas, so I hate going to the gas station. It just doesn't feel right having someone pump my gas for me, plus I'm anti-social.

Another question: How much time did you spend in 4-low on your climb? Did you switch it on only when needed or were you crawling along the whole way up?

Thanks - and great writeup

I left the vehicle in 4-Low the entire trail. As it is a CVT, you can run up to 40mph+ in that gear and have all of the advantage of the max spark advance, etc.

The trail-rated mpg of the Patriot is the reason I removed it from my final choice when I was picking a vehicle. The gas wasn't terribly bad, but the tank is only 13.5 gallons, so I felt the combination of the 2 would lead to lots of trips to the gas station. Plus I live in Oregon where it's against the law to pump your own gas, so I hate going to the gas station. It just doesn't feel right having someone pump my gas for me, plus I'm anti-social.

Hey, what's wrong with Oregon law? If someone else wants to pump gas for me I say go for it! :D

I know what you mean about the frequent trips to the gas station. But you get used to it, after awhile it isn't a big deal. I had a Toyota MR2 once and it had a very small tank. With that thing your mileage ranged quite a bit depending on how you drove it. Sometimes I only got about 230 miles on a tank.

230 miles is all I get out of my Liberty and it's got an 18 gallon tank!

Thanks for the thread e-west - lots of useful information in here!

Big thanks for the article! Even the questions I would have asked were already in the post!

The problem with Oregon law concerning pumping your own gas, GB1, is that it easilly turns a 2 minute self-serve job into a 10-minute tooth-grinder. Plus, Cooter always manages to either scratch my vehicle or pump gas all over the fender. AND, they don't take money outside - you STILL have to get out of your vehicle (remember, it rains a lot in Orgeon) and go inside to pay. Places like 7-11 make you go inside to pay first, them go back to your car and wait for some knuckledragger to come over and damage your new Patriot. Wow!!

1. Half the time the person pumping the gas is not someone you would ever want to talk to or let touch your vehicle or give your credit card to.

2. It's awkward to get out of your vehicle to check your oil, or clean your windows. You either have to have a conversation which you may not be in the mood for, or they look at you like you're crazy.

3. You could get the job done much faster if you could pump your own.

4. It makes me feel uncomfortable everytime I go to have another man pumping my gas for me. Men in America take care of themselves !

How does Jeep provide the extra 1-inch of ground clearance on the trail-rated version? Is is strictly accountable to the AT tires, or is the suspension different?

Great post and report! Greatly appreciated. That's what I was looking for, not just the canned, magazine-to-manufacturer-friendly generic article. As I am in the market for a Patriot (92 YJ and 94 ZJ, many Jamborees and trails later, need a kinder ride for fuel efficiency...).

Now you state having the FDII and Crawl-ratio version of the Patriot, then say you get out on the road and get 30mpg, then agree with someone saying that the Full Off-Road version only gets 21-23mpg... Which is it? Or rather, how did you truly do (mpgs) on-road and off-road?

I was driving early vehicles, before the MPG had been finalized, so I used the numbers available at the time.

I would recommend using the results that members here have seen in the real world. IMO you should expect low to mid 20's in mixed driving and light off-roading (no sand). That was what I experienced, and I have a heavier right foot than most ;-)

I hope eventually they have way more mod options available but not just for the FD11, unfortunately nobody in Phoenix had one available and it was a sh!t or get off the pot situation so I went w/the next best. 2.4L 4x4 CVT which I believe makes it the FD1 but not sure?

Expeditionswest question for u!

do you think it's possible to gear up the FD1 up so that it can handle #2 rated trails? I'm new to all this and dang it I want to get out there and get into trail riding...! Oh, and I'm talking minor upgrades, nothing too expensive or extremely in depth as I have no type of garage available and I'd be affraid to screw up such a great vehicle! ha!

expeditionswest - Thank you for testing a Patriot... I've been on all of those trails and I am very surprised that you made it home alive but even more surprise that a Patriot could make it through.

Patriot Owners - your CAR is what it is... If you decide to do stuff like this full time your going to have make some serious modifications and only if you can find what your looking for. If you want to go off roading full time I would get a true 4x4 that can take a beating over and over again..

I like my Patriot... but it was made for the street not the trails... If I'm going off road I'm not taking my Patriot...

Outstanding!

Question: Did you happen to do any testing of the FDI equipped Patriot in off-roading conditions? It would be interesting to hear an experts opinion about the limitations and how best to overcome them of a non-Trail Rated Patriot.

Due to the higher fuel consumption of the FDII, not to mention the fact that they simply do not import the Trail Rated version everywhere, I imagine I would not be the only one interested in this.

Outstanding!

Question: Did you happen to do any testing of the FDI equipped Patriot in off-roading conditions? It would be interesting to hear an experts opinion about the limitations and how best to overcome them of a non-Trail Rated Patriot.

Due to the higher fuel consumption of the FDII, not to mention the fact that they simply do not import the Trail Rated version everywhere, I imagine I would not be the only one interested in this.

It would be good to know as the Freedom Drive II isn't available in the UK

Awesome article!

I guess there is little chance the naysayers will ever read or even acknowledge the review mind you. That said, I am delighted to have a Trail Rated Patriot. I had driven standard for over 30 years and was concerned about relinquishing control. Not any longer.

I'm feeling mighty fine now.

They were both trail rated, just an early series
Nice review. Now what is your take on a non trail rated Patriot. I have the FDI and I go offroading when I hunt. Nothing too serious but I am interested in getting some of the things the FDII Patriots have like the skid plates and the taller springs for the struts. Do you think the FDI model is still a capable off roader stock?

expeditionswest - Thank you for testing a Patriot... I've been on all of those trails and I am very surprised that you made it home alive but even more surprise that a Patriot could make it through.

You are welcome. I have worked on several proof of performance projects with Jeep, including the recent Liberty crossing of the Rubicon.

As a crossover vehicle, the Patriot is actually quite exceptional, with the LR2 (Freelander) being the only equal, yet with a $15k premium

The key to all of these trails with a Patriot is to use the vehicles positive attributes to help navigate the obstacle. Maneuverability and stability allows the driver to select non-tradition lines to get through.

For the four-peaks and Crown King routes, the Patriot did very well. It is important to note that the trails were driven by an experienced driver, so the whole "Closed Course, Professional Driver" warning applies...

The FDI is a good vehicle for improved surfaces or the beach (sand). I would rate it's maximum capability with an average driver as a 2 rated trail, based on my five scale. The FDII just sneaks into the 2.5...

Essentially, they both do great on dirt roads that are maintained, like most forest service roads and desert two-tracks. Rocks begin to really test the platform. The are a blast in the sand, so small dunes and sand tracks and beaches are a perfect environment. It is always best to operate a vehicle at 80% or less of its capabilities, which allows for driver error and changes in weather, etc.

Here is my trail rating "guide" (http://www.overlandjournal.com/adventures/trail_guide.html)

Hope this helps :)

Scott -

I truly respect your 4x4 abilities and the ability of a Jeep Patriot.

I'm pretty sure what your stating is... Patriot is meant for a Level II trail (dirt, sand, snow and maybe a significant bump)...

My concern is that part of this review is on a very serious trail and technically it's meant for a true trail rig. I would hate for owners of this type of car to think that the Patriot is a serious trail rig that can continuously (that is a very key word here) do the level the review covered. When in fact it's really "Mall Rated" (which means keep it on the street)

Don't take this post wrong... I'm not down playing what it can do... but merely stating what it is meant for... I think if owners are looking for a trail rig that they can't take out time and time again then look for a different 4x4 and keep this one on the streets.

Just my 2 cents for what's it worth...

BTW - I know what is like to have your vehicles capabilities downplayed. I drove a Nissan Pathfinder off road for years. I took a lot of crap from Jeep guys but when it came time to play I usually was on top of the hill looking down at a lot them. I built it up from stock and when I was done it was capable of just about every trial in Arizona. However it is a very different vehicle that can be made into a very serious trail rig. So prove me wrong... build up your Patriots... and I'll see you on top of that hill some day...

The FDI is a good vehicle for improved surfaces or the beach (sand).
I would rate it's maximum capability with an average driver as a 2 rated trail, based on my five scale.
The FDII just sneaks into the 2.5...


OK Hi everybody, my first post
and it not Going to be a Puffball question

expeditionswest
What you are saying then (If I read you correctly)
is the difference between a FD I Patriot and a "Trail Rated" FD II Patriot
is just an 0.5 difference in their ability to handle rated trails

So in what circumstances should someone really consider buying an FDII
given the price premium and gas mileage penalty?

I currently own a 96 XJ which I love
Its my 2nd, the first went 222,000 miles

But the XJ is a "gas fire" and I eventually may consider a Patriot
Given what you have said an FD I sounds like the better choice.
would I be giving up that much capability ?

Scott (expeditionswest), I was wondering if you had a list of some 2.0 to 2.5 trails you would recommend for us.

Thanks for the detailed review, Scott. Your testing was a big influence in our decision to go with the Pat.

With all due respect, I am of the very strong opinion that (lack of) ground clearance is the most limiting attribute of the Patriot. Power and torque have not been anywhere near limiting so far, from below sea level to above 10000 feet.

Clearance has been limiting, and is very difficult to improve.

If I could step in as well based on my animal experience I would add that the low clearance combined with an exposed lower radiator and a/c condenser are serious limitations for off-road activities. I would also state that several have found the front suspension is exposed to damage. With proper skid plates or shields and brush guards the Patriot can scramble up a level 2 trail but otherwise is at risk.

:pepper:nice

So in what circumstances should someone really consider buying an FDII
given the price premium and gas mileage penalty?

If you intend to use it in the dirt, I would recommend the FDII. The additional inch of clearance, better tires, skid plates, increases cooling, improved door seals and more robust transmission all improve the vehicles performance in mild terrain.

Most importantly, it is critical to understand the intention of the Patriot platform, which is to perform great on the highway, get reasonable economy and also provide some mild trail capability. People will buy the Patriot for it's other attributes, not its trail performance. But when comparing to the other cross-over platforms, the Patriot shines in the dirt.

For trails, there is an excellent book called Backcountry Adventures, by Massey and Wilson. They have trail guides for Arizona, California, Utah and Colorado. He uses a 10 scale, which is essentially the same as a 5 scale, just doubled. I would take a FDI on anything up to a 3 in that book and a FDII up to a 4 and possibly a 5 with an experienced driver traveling with a group. The great thing about those books it that loads of the trails are at the more easy / moderate ratings.

For those of you with AWD Patriots, get out and use them. Camping, forest roads and many fun trails are well within their capabilities.

Thanks for the reply
you have gave me the clear answer
I was looking for

i am in no hurry to buy
and I want to see what Jeep does in MOD II of the Patriot
(that is if it survives the cut, though I expect it will)

Scott (expeditionswest), I was wondering if you had a list of some 2.0 to 2.5 trails you would recommend for us.

If your in AZ try out FR41.


Here is the link from a buddy of mine who did a great write up..
w w w.blue-fish.biz/page_FR41_New_River_Canyon.htm

you'll find it right up the Patriots alley... BTW - make sure you go with someone else and their 4x4 just in case...

If you intend to use it in the dirt, I would recommend the FDII. The additional inch of clearance, better tires, skid plates, increases cooling, improved door seals and more robust transmission all improve the vehicles performance in mild terrain.

Most importantly, it is critical to understand the intention of the Patriot platform, which is to perform great on the highway, get reasonable economy and also provide some mild trail capability. People will buy the Patriot for it's other attributes, not its trail performance. But when comparing to the other cross-over platforms, the Patriot shines in the dirt.

For trails, there is an excellent book called Backcountry Adventures, by Massey and Wilson. They have trail guides for Arizona, California, Utah and Colorado. He uses a 10 scale, which is essentially the same as a 5 scale, just doubled. I would take a FDI on anything up to a 3 in that book and a FDII up to a 4 and possibly a 5 with an experienced driver traveling with a group. The great thing about those books it that loads of the trails are at the more easy / moderate ratings.

For those of you with AWD Patriots, get out and use them. Camping, forest roads and many fun trails are well within their capabilities.
If I were to add skid plates, the taller springs from the FDII and say 29" tires would that make my FDI as capable as an FDII? I have gone off road with 2wd and 4x4 trucks on trails rated at 2 on your scale and never had problems or needed most of the stuff the FDII has. My 05 dakota 4x4 had only 7.5 inches of clearance and did just fine on the trails I go on. My FDI is supposed to have 8 inches of clearance and I have the same wheel and tire combo that is standard on the FDII's looking underneath it I see everything exept maybe the exhaust is all tucked up inbetween the frame rails. I guess because I'm new as this is the first jeep I have ever owned I want to be sure it can handle what I throw at it. Plus I want to prove to a coworker that my Jeep Patriot is better than his subaru outback LOL.

Unfortunately, no, as you would not have the lower geared CVT, which makes a huge difference in torque multiplication, something that is critical with a 4cyl.

The rating scale is conservative, to allow for the lowest common denominator, the typical driver...

If I were to add skid plates, the taller springs from the FDII and say 29" tires would that make my FDI as capable as an FDII? I have gone off road with 2wd and 4x4 trucks on trails rated at 2 on your scale and never had problems or needed most of the stuff the FDII has. My 05 dakota 4x4 had only 7.5 inches of clearance and did just fine on the trails I go on. My FDI is supposed to have 8 inches of clearance and I have the same wheel and tire combo that is standard on the FDII's looking underneath it I see everything exept maybe the exhaust is all tucked up inbetween the frame rails. I guess because I'm new as this is the first jeep I have ever owned I want to be sure it can handle what I throw at it. Plus I want to prove to a coworker that my Jeep Patriot is better than his subaru outback LOL.

I may never take my Patriot off road far away from home, however this review tells me that when I want to travel in heavy snow on back roads so I won't get blown off of the freeway by a semi, I won't need to alter my travel plans due to bad weather including deep snow.

Great review. It makes me want to give mountain trails a try. I would use my Scrambler for that activity though.

I posted this before, but on the FDII and I suspect on the FDI there is a driveshaft carrier assembly with a bolt that hold it in place protruding down about 1 1/2 inches that is just waiting to be smacked by any big rock. On my first off road adventure I caught the bolt on a rock and bent the carrier frame enough that it started rubbing on the driveshaft and squealing like a stuck pig. I was able to straighten it enough with many swings of a sledge hammer, but have decided not to go offroad again until I get around to putting a lift on my Pat and construct some sort of a V guard over the protruding bolt to give it some protection.