Given that most of us shop around before buying, wondering what other vehicles you have or are considering besides the Patriot and what factors are or will be most important in your final selection?

Looking at: (I favour the Jeep Patriot but here goes)

New:

#1 - Jeep Patriot Sport 4x4 FDII
#2 - Jeep Liberty Sport 4x4
#3 - Jeep Compass Sport 4x4 FDI (Test drove and it's a suprisingly nice ride)
#4 - Toyota RAV4
#5 - 07 Mitsubishi Outlander
#6 - Subaru Outback AWD

Used:

#1 - Jeep Grand Cherokee
#2 - Subaru Legacy AWD wagon or Outback AWD

I just hope these Patriot ship soon

1) Jeep Patriot Limted 4x4 FDI
2)Jeep Compass Limited 4x4 FDI
3)Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4x4
4)Mercury Mariner Luxury AWD

Honda CRV,Subaru Forrester and Toyota RAV 4.Because of where we live we need a 4X4.As important are reliability,safty and to a lesser extent economy

I looked at the 2007 Honda CR-V but the rear seats don't fold flat like the Jeep...first the back folds down, which leaves the seats about a foot higher than the rear cargo area...then they flip over and are stored directly behind the front seats---which takes up precious room when you are entering into the vehicle from the rear side doors (I don't know how you get large cargo items into the vehicle from the side doors when the seats are flipped up....poor design...besides Honda wants a lot of cash for the AWD, leather seat version of the CR-V

...fold flat seats in the cargo area behind the front seats is important to me because I rarely have anybody in the back seat...

I also looked at the Toyota Rav4 but didn't like the rear door at the back with the spare on it...prefer the hatch door...

....Subaru's...I just couldn't get past the looks of them...same with the Compass...couldn't get used to the exterior appearance...the Ford Escape 4x4 didn't do much for me either...

...I like the Grand Cherokee but I need something smaller that fits in the single garage with all the other junk we have in there and something a little better on gas...

...I might consider the 08 Liberty if it comes out with a diesel...but right now my top pick is the 4x4 Patriot (don't really need the off-road package as I don't do any rock crawling....I need something with smaller dimensions than a G.C., good on gas, can tow at least a snowmobile or small aluminum boat and can handle snow (4x4 or AWD)...

...I didn't see anything that caught my eye from any other foreign or domestic manufacturer.... except in 2008, VW is coming out with a small SUV--the Tiguan--which will have the option of gas or diesel engine...looks like a good vehicle with potential but won't be out until around Nov. 07

1 - Jeep Patroit FDII Diesel
2 - Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (4 door) 4x4 Diesel
3 - Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel
4 - Jeep Liberty Diesel
5 - Any other Jeep that has a Diesel :D

1. 2007 Patriot
-positives are mpg, some cool features, roof rack, 5-speed, price
-negatives are styling, poor stance, no trail-rated w/5-speed, towing

2. 2007 Chevy Colorado 4WD
-positives nice styling, stance, mpg and price not bad, great warrantee
-negatives cheap interior, no bed accessories, no roof rack

3. 2007 Chevy Silverado 4WD
- positives interior styling and space, fuel efficient V8, cargo system
- negatives fuel economy, 4-speed automatic, price, heavy curb weight

4. 2006 Ford Escape/Mariner/Tribute
-positives utility, styling. stance, ride, interior, light curb weight, mpg
-negatives overpriced, AWD sucks, did I mention overpriced?

5. 2006 Ford Ranger 4WD
-positives still looks good, good stance, nice interior, light curb weight, price
-negatives a bit small, aging design, small cab

6. 2003-2006 Jeep Liberty 4WD
-positives real 4WD, tough, styling, amazing used prices (12.5 k), towing
-negatives heavy curb weight, mpg, cargo space, cramped

I've been shopping for a vehicle about 4 months. I have not bought anything because I think most vehicles are overpriced (especially compact SUV's) and I've been waiting to see the patriot.

Pre-Patriot, Hubby was trying to talk me into a Dodge Magnum. He had me convinced, too. That little car has att-i-tude! A wagon doesn't bother me...I drove an Opel Vectra Wagon in Germany for a year or two and loved it. (sniff...I miss my diesel!!) However, the MPG on the Magnum is a big turnoff. Plus, being back in the US, where everyone is in a SUV, I want to be up higher off of the road.

Now, I only have eyes for the Patriot. Even though I was looking at the Compass first.

I *do* like the looks of the Hyundai Santa Fe. But we're sticking with American...so that's out.

Ford caught my eye for a bit with their Edge and Freestyle. But they're too pricey, and they're not Jeeps.

I've also put a bit of thought into the Liberty. But the Patriot's lines appeal to me more (more Cherokee-like) and the price is again an issue.

escape hybrid
escape
prius hybrid

I don't mean to put anyone down, but Fords??? Every Ford I've ever been in is so unfortable (driving it or just riding it in). Again, sorry for that but I just don't understand.

I'm pretty set on getting the Patriot. But I would consider getting a low mileage used 2-door Cherokee, but they are really hard to find.

Or, if Ford brings out a retro Bronco based on the 2004 Ford Bronco concept vehicle, I would definitely consider that.

I am only interested in a manual tranny largely for the improved vehicular control, performance, fuel mileage, and auto trannies are just soooo boring (please pardon my bias for adventure ;)). This limits my options to:

Jeep Patriot
VW Tiguan
Subaru Forester
Rebuilding my Cherokee or finding another 5spd Cherokee
Finding a VW TDI Golf and installing a 1 in rally lift to deal with my dirt roads

But, should the VW Tiguan appear with the 2.0 TDI diesel, my decision is made as the 2.0 puts out about the same torque as my 4.0 with way better fuel economy.

I've been considering a Nissan Xterra Offroad as well the patriot. I like that I can get leather, heated seats, hands free communication, and GPS on the patriot for the less than the Xterra. Not to mention they arnt offered on the Xterra. But the Xterra has a locking rear differential and I am sure it will be more fun to drive than the patriot with so much more power. But the jeep gets better gas mileage. For me, I need off road, so it comes down to whether I can live with the lower power of the jeep.

escape hybrid
escape
prius hybrid

My wife has a Prius. Both of us love it! 50mpg and tons of interior space. All and all, a really nice car.

I don't mean to put anyone down, but Fords??? Every Ford I've ever been in is so unfortable (driving it or just riding it in). Again, sorry for that but I just don't understand.

X2

I've never been a big fan of Ford. Their trucks are ok but their SUVs and cars aren't anything to write home about. Besides the Ford Escape Hybrid uses Toyota hybrid technology.

If you are looking for a hybrid, go with the Prius or Highlander Hybrid.

If you are looking for the most bang for your buck, go with the Patriot. The Prius costs about the same as a fully loaded Partiot (Limited FDII all options). While the Prius beats the Patroit in fuel economy hands down, the Patriot has 4wd and more cargo space. On the other hand, the Patriot costs half as much as a Highlander Hybrid and both get 27mpg highway. Granted you get 32mpg city in the Highlander Hybrid compared to the Patriot's 24mpg city. But is that worth $15,000?

I'm not bashing hybrids. I love the idea. More cars should have at least hybrid options. Along with diesel and diesel hybrid options. Until then and until the techonlogy becomes less expensive, your money is best spent on a Patriot.:D

In no paticular order, as I am still trying to pay off some of my current car. This means no new car till prolly this summer or fall.

Anyways...

Patriot
Honda Element EX AWD
Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon

I don't need a big gas hog, 4wd/AWD would be nice, as well as a little bit of hauling capacity. The big thing is that I need something to tow my motorcycle from time to time.

Btw, before any of you say it I've seen pics of Elements that actually look like real vehicles and not boxes.

I am only interested in a manual tranny largely for the improved vehicular control, performance, fuel mileage, and auto trannies are just soooo boring (please pardon my bias for adventure ;)). This limits my options to:

Jeep Patriot
VW Tiguan
Subaru Forester
Rebuilding my Cherokee or finding another 5spd Cherokee
Finding a VW TDI Golf and installing a 1 in rally lift to deal with my dirt roads

But, should the VW Tiguan appear with the 2.0 TDI diesel, my decision is made as the 2.0 puts out about the same torque as my 4.0 with way better fuel economy.

I like the TDI Golf idea! :D

I really really hope DCX can convince VW to allow sale of their diesels in the US. :rolleyes:

Let's see...

Patriot - FDII
Liberty - diesel
Wrangler - 4dr base model
Grand Vitara - 4wd
LR2 - 4wd
Xterra - 4wd

Let's see...

Patriot - FDII
Liberty - diesel
Wrangler - 4dr base model
Grand Vitara - 4wd
LR2 - 4wd
Xterra - 4wd

I agree with all of these vehicles.....however (and I know I'll get slammed for this) I am also very curious to see what the new H4 will look like. We will see a model at the Detriot auto show this month. Hear me out:

The one upside, in my eyes, to Hummers vs. Jeeps is the full-time 4WD. I am interested in a vehicle with off-road capability. However, I am also practical, and I want a vehicle that can be switched into 4WD/AWD when the weather gets questionable. For me, that doesn't always mean an inch of standing snow on the streets.

Thus vehicles like the Patriot, Grand Vitara, and LR2 are more than ideal. Each has a limited amount of capability (I'm thinking the Patriot has a bit more than limited amount) and each has a traction system that doesn't need prompting from me.

However, if the new H4 stays true to the fulltime 4WD Hummer model while providing a smaller vehicle that could be more easily manuevered on trails and cost a bit less than the H3/H2..........and if it even attempts to match the Wrangler in off-road capability/looks....hey, I've got to consider it!

Jim

i have been looking at the highlander hybrid...but damn...cant get over the jeep price

We looked at the highlander hybrid... until we saw the cost combined with the tight rear seating. The other thing was I couldn't get the salesperson to say anything nice about its off-roading ability. seriously. He would always redirect the conversation to it being a hybrid.

The H4 is nice but too far down the road for my needs. I could have an easy 30K miles already on the Patriot by the time the H4 hits the streets. I really wanted to make my buy last fall and have only delayed it so as to give the Patriot a chance... but the waiting is killing me.

I agree with all of these vehicles.....however (and I know I'll get slammed for this) I am also very curious to see what the new H4 will look like. We will see a model at the Detriot auto show this month. Hear me out:

The one upside, in my eyes, to Hummers vs. Jeeps is the full-time 4WD. I am interested in a vehicle with off-road capability. However, I am also practical, and I want a vehicle that can be switched into 4WD/AWD when the weather gets questionable. For me, that doesn't always mean an inch of standing snow on the streets.

Thus vehicles like the Patriot, Grand Vitara, and LR2 are more than ideal. Each has a limited amount of capability (I'm thinking the Patriot has a bit more than limited amount) and each has a traction system that doesn't need prompting from me.

However, if the new H4 stays true to the fulltime 4WD Hummer model while providing a smaller vehicle that could be more easily manuevered on trails and cost a bit less than the H3/H2..........and if it even attempts to match the Wrangler in off-road capability/looks....hey, I've got to consider it!

Jim

Well I'm not going to slam you... :D

I'm not a fan of Hummer. I just hope Hummer will once and for all get away from the H2 (I'm bigger than you, gas eating, rain forest eating, I'm severely over compansating, Super-Soccer-Mom-Suburban-Assault-Wheeled-Vehicle) image. On the other hand, I can live with the H3. The H3 is sensibly sized, equipped and more offroad capable. (I still think it kinda looks like a mix between a XJ and a TJ.) I'm also interested to see how the H4 will turn out. If the H4 can come close to matching the JK Wrangler I'm all for it. Competion can only be good for Jeep. Maybe it will help Jeep bring back an updated Cherokee. :D

Well I'm not going to slam you... :D

I'm not a fan of Hummer. I just hope Hummer will once and for all get away from the H2 (I'm bigger than you, gas eating, rain forest eating, I'm severely over compansating, Super-Soccer-Mom-Suburban-Assault-Wheeled-Vehicle) image. On the other hand, I can live with the H3. The H3 is sensibly sized, equipped and more offroad capable. (I still think it kinda looks like a mix between a XJ and a TJ.) I'm also interested to see how the H4 will turn out. If the H4 can come close to matching the JK Wrangler I'm all for it. Competion can only be good for Jeep. Maybe it will help Jeep bring back an updated Cherokee. :D

It will be interesting to see what Hummer does with the H4. I hope they model it after the H3 instead of the H2. The H2 looks goofy....like a freaking tank. Also, we'll see how overpriced these puppies are. They are targeting the youth market...so I'm hoping they undercut the Wrangler a bit.

If they can offer a good looking vehicle with half of what the Wrangler has and better gas mileage for less cost.....why not give it a sniff?

To be honest...I think Hummer is the best thing for Jeep. Clearly, the Liberty is being redesigned to compete with the H3 and FJ. They are making it bigger, more square (read: masculine), and more capable. Now it is Hummer's turn to react. The H2 isn't competing with anything...so if they want some more rugged market share, they have to aim at the Wrangler.

i read car and driver's rock hopper comparison where they compared the H3, FJ cruiser, Xterra, and the Gand Cherokee Laredo and they were adament about the fact that while the H3 was great off road, it really sucked on road. And they didnt have anything good to say about the inline 5 it has. I think that anything comming from hummer is going to have serious on road comprimises you wont find in the liberty, patriot, xterra, or fj cruiser.

I am pulling for the H4, too. The best thing for the H2 is the diesel aftermarket kit - tons of torque and mid-20s for mpgs! I would own and drive one in a heartbeat if it was in my price range and ran diesel. I like the H2T. I look forward to a day when the whining, hate spewing, tree-hugging, intollerant, "I'm more PC than you", conservative-hating, seriously over compensating, gender nulifying outback owners get a life and let others simply be.

That being said, I will get the vehicle which meets the most of my needs at the best price regardless of make, model, or social stigma.

I am pulling for the H4, too. I look forward to a day when the whining, hate spewing, tree-hugging, intollerant, "I'm more PC than you", conservative-hating, seriously over compensating, gender nulifying outback owners get a life and let others simply be.

That being said, I will get the vehicle which meets the most of my needs at the best price regardless of make, model, or social stigma.



Why don't you just come out and say, "I'll do whatever I want regardless of any negative environmental impact my actions will cause."

What a childish post, honestly...

You said it for me, thanx.

Why don't you just come out and say, "I'll do whatever I want regardless of any negative environmental impact my actions will cause."

What a childish post, honestly...

Must have struck too close to home for some... I guess. What gave you the impression that I will do anything regardless of any negative enviro impact because I said I would consider buying a diesel H2, because I won't bow at the roots of the nearest shrub, or because I won't do something simply to be PC regardless of its true costs?

With everything, there is a balance. To each end there is an extreme. I will not bow to social pressure simply to fit in nor fight the norm simply to rebel. I look for the best way to meet my family and my needs. Sometimes the the best things isn't what is considered the PC-way. Sometimes it is. I don't care if it does or not. I will not buy a hybrid until they can prove that the batteries last at least as long as the standard car battery does, that it doesn't cost hundred if not thousands to replace and is recycleable (after all isn't that part of why people buy hybrids?!?)

There isn't a single vehicle in the world which doesn't have some negative environmental impact... it's all a matter of degrees and time lines. The whole lifecycle of the vehicle should really be considered if you really care about the environment... from raw materials (post consumer materials) thru use and back to the percentage of reuseable/recycleable materials and the energys required all along the way. simply looking at the exhaust and mpgs is very short sighted.

I still stand by my statement... I will buy the vehicle which best fits my family's needs and budget; independent of marketing, branding, make, model, and clickish or trendy fad.

For those who are interested in comparing the Patriot's gas mileage with other vehicles they are considering as well as greenhouse gas emissions and air pollution score of various models (this is all given in the comparison)...go to www.fueleconomy.gov...

We should all be bowing to every plant on the planet. Without the oxygen they make there is nothing......Keep on taking it for granted and there will be consequences that no one will like.

Here's the US Department of Energy's gas mileage for ALL 2007 Jeeps (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Jeep2007.shtml).

Here is the direct link for the 2007 Jeep Patriot with the 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Automatic (CVT) (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/23809.shtml) and one for with the 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Manual (5 speed) (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/23810.shtml)

These are some good numbers. I can't wait to get behind the wheel of one.

Must have struck too close to home for some... I guess. What gave you the impression that I will do anything regardless of any negative enviro impact because I said I would consider buying a diesel H2, because I won't bow at the roots of the nearest shrub, or because I won't do something simply to be PC regardless of its true costs?

With everything, there is a balance. To each end there is an extreme. I will not bow to social pressure simply to fit in nor fight the norm simply to rebel. I look for the best way to meet my family and my needs. Sometimes the the best things isn't what is considered the PC-way. Sometimes it is. I don't care if it does or not. I will not buy a hybrid until they can prove that the batteries last at least as long as the standard car battery does, that it doesn't cost hundred if not thousands to replace and is recycleable (after all isn't that part of why people buy hybrids?!?)

There isn't a single vehicle in the world which doesn't have some negative environmental impact... it's all a matter of degrees and time lines. The whole lifecycle of the vehicle should really be considered if you really care about the environment... from raw materials (post consumer materials) thru use and back to the percentage of reuseable/recycleable materials and the energys required all along the way. simply looking at the exhaust and mpgs is very short sighted.

I still stand by my statement... I will buy the vehicle which best fits my family's needs and budget; independent of marketing, branding, make, model, and clickish or trendy fad.


Well said! You are right you should buy the vehicle that best fits your needs. And you do have to look at the big picture.

I made the left wing comment. You made the right wing comment. Now we have balance.:D

i want the cargo space for hauling camping and tailgating gear. I've compared the Patriot to PT Cruiser, HHR, Matrix/Vibe, Honda Element, and Hyundai Tucson. The Patriot looks to have the best combination of space, features, mpg, power to weight ratio and cost for me. Of course, i'll have to drive it.

I'm starting to look at the Dodge Nitro, didn't know it came in 4x4 and you can get it w/ a 6 instead of the Patriot's 4

I'm starting to look at the Dodge Nitro, didn't know it came in 4x4 and you can get it w/ a 6 instead of the Patriot's 4

If you are looking at the Nitro and want 4x4... Wait for the 08 Liberty. They share a common frame but the 08 Liberty is more offroad oriented. For more info go here: http://www.allpar.com/trucks/jeep/liberty-2008.html

If you are looking at the Nitro and want 4x4... Wait for the 08 Liberty. They share a common frame but the 08 Liberty is more offroad oriented. For more info go here: http://www.allpar.com/trucks/jeep/liberty-2008.html

Interesting...hadn't seen the liberty or should i say mini commander...

I am only interested in a manual tranny largely for the improved vehicular control, performance, fuel mileage, and auto trannies are just soooo boring (please pardon my bias for adventure ;)). This limits my options to:

Jeep Patriot
VW Tiguan
Subaru Forester
Rebuilding my Cherokee or finding another 5spd Cherokee
Finding a VW TDI Golf and installing a 1 in rally lift to deal with my dirt roads

But, should the VW Tiguan appear with the 2.0 TDI diesel, my decision is made as the 2.0 puts out about the same torque as my 4.0 with way better fuel economy.

Note: The VW Tiguan will have the 2.0 bluetec diesel engine as an option when it arrives sometime after the gas model in late Fall 2007....

I am pulling for the H4, too. The best thing for the H2 is the diesel aftermarket kit - tons of torque and mid-20s for mpgs! I would own and drive one in a heartbeat if it was in my price range and ran diesel. I like the H2T. I look forward to a day when the whining, hate spewing, tree-hugging, intollerant, "I'm more PC than you", conservative-hating, seriously over compensating, gender nulifying outback owners get a life and let others simply be.

That being said, I will get the vehicle which meets the most of my needs at the best price regardless of make, model, or social stigma.


Well said! Contrary to poular opinion, even the H1 can be more envionmently freindly than the best hybrid. A diesel can run without burning a fossil fuel,(100% biodiesel), hybrids still need gas.

Biodiesel still emits harmful polution which contributes to global warming. And diesel emits more polution than gas, especially when your burning ten times as much. I dont really care if someone chooses to drive a hummer but if you think its more enviromentally friendly than a Toyota Prius your grossly misinformed or delusional.

100% biodiesel is much cleaner than any gas burning engine, plus reduces dependance on imported oil. That was my point. Hydrogen cars would be cleanest vehicles, as they only emit water vapor, but did you know that water vapor is the most abundant "greenhouse gas"? Since you brought it up, do you know how much the earth has warmed over the past 100+ years records have been kept? Or that the earth has been much warmer than it is now? Or that we just emerged from a minor ice age just over 100 years ago? Or that just one volcanic eruption emits more "gree house gases" than mankind has ever produced?

Biodiesel still emits harmful polution which contributes to global warming...

I am not a believer in the global warming theory. It is not a fact... it's still an unproven theory with many authorities lining up on both sides (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-30-2007/0004516240&EDATE=) of the issue... that doesn't mean I don't believe in pollution nor things having a negative impact on our environment. That aside...


I am still considering three other candidates strongly:

The wrangler 4 door
The grand vitara
The xterra

We are starting to lean towards the wrangler but will be testing all four to see if two full size carseats plus one boaster seat will fit in the back seat. This will be a huge test for us.

The rear seat entry for the H3 is too tight, which is why the FJ is not on the list either.

Since you brought it up, do you know how much the earth has warmed over the past 100+ years records have been kept? Or that the earth has been much warmer than it is now? Or that we just emerged from a minor ice age just over 100 years ago? Or that just one volcanic eruption emits more "gree house gases" than mankind has ever produced?

Yes I am aware of all of that. I have a doctorate and I regularly read up on it.

100% biodiesel is much cleaner than any gas burning engine, plus reduces dependance on imported oil. That was my point. Hydrogen cars would be cleanest vehicles, as they only emit water vapor, but did you know that water vapor is the most abundant "greenhouse gas"?

Untrue. First, your point was that a H1 is more environmentally friendly than even the best hybrid and that not even close to true. I qoute from a wikipeadia article on biodiesel:

The Union of Concerned Scientists writes:[17]

When it comes to buying a new car, gasoline-powered models are better than diesels on toxic soot and smog-forming emissions. The downside to current diesels is that they produce 10 to 20 times more toxic particulates than their gasoline counterparts, more than can be made up for with the use of biodiesel. Diesels fare even worse when it comes to smog-forming nitrogen oxide emissions, with greater than 20 times the emissions of a comparable gasoline vehicle.

Second, while biodiesel is cleaner than regular desiel it creates its own additional problems. Again I qoute wikipedia:

The locations where oil-producing plants are grown is of increasing concern to environmentalists, one of the prime worries being that countries will clear cut large areas of tropical forest in order to grow such lucrative crops, in particular, oil palm. This has already occurred in the Philippines and Indonesia; both countries plan to increase their biodiesel production levels significantly, which will lead to the deforestation of tens of millions of acres if these plans materialize.

Third, while water vapor is a greenhouse gas, "It is not possible to state that a certain gas causes a certain percentage of the greenhouse effect, because the influences of the various gases are not additive." All and all water vapor would probaly be preferable to gas and diesel as there are more negitive polution problems with the burning of gas and diesel than just the addition greenhouse gases.

The fact is: If you think an H1 is more environmentally friendly than the best hybrid you are misinformed or delusional because its not.

Well said! Contrary to poular opinion, even the H1 can be more envionmently freindly than the best hybrid. A diesel can run without burning a fossil fuel,(100% biodiesel), hybrids still need gas.

A Diesel H1 (running on 100% biodiesel, B100) if used correctly, maybe. The H1/HMMWV is an OFFROAD vehicle, not the family minivan. The Hummer is a military vehicle, it is not designed to be used as a daily driver. Even the military uses other smaller commercial vehicles (e.g. Ford Ranger) whenever possible.

A diesel hybrid (running on B100) would be the most environmently friendly combination of techonology.

Biodiesel still emits harmful polution which contributes to global warming. And diesel emits more polution than gas, especially when your burning ten times as much. I dont really care if someone chooses to drive a hummer but if you think its more enviromentally friendly than a Toyota Prius your grossly misinformed or delusional.

A Diesel engine running biodiesel does emit green house gases. CO2 and NO included. However biodiesel can be produced from any number of sources. Many of these sources are 'waste' products that range from industrial to agricurtural wastes to your kitchen table. Biodiesel is not only 'renewable' it is also 'sustainable.' Biodiesel can be readily mixed with diesel and does not require modification to run in a diesel motor. Biodiesel can use existing pipelines and delivery systems. For more info on biodiesel go here http://www.biodieselnow.com/

A 'modern' diesel emits about the same amount of polution as a comparable gas motor. The big difference is that same diesel well get an average of 30% 'better' fuel economy. Remember that those stats are from a diesel running 'old' diesel. The new diesel standards will bring emissions further down. A biodiesel mixture will bring emission even further down. Again a diesel hybrid (running on B100) would be the most environmently friendly combination of techonology.

100% biodiesel is much cleaner than any gas burning engine, plus reduces dependance on imported oil. That was my point. Hydrogen cars would be cleanest vehicles, as they only emit water vapor, but did you know that water vapor is the most abundant "greenhouse gas"? Since you brought it up, do you know how much the earth has warmed over the past 100+ years records have been kept? Or that the earth has been much warmer than it is now? Or that we just emerged from a minor ice age just over 100 years ago? Or that just one volcanic eruption emits more "gree house gases" than mankind has ever produced?

WOW!! You lost me after about two and a half sentences. Water vapor may be a green house gas in the 'upper' atmoshpere but in the 'lower' atmoshpere it is not a polutant, its actually quite necessary for life to exist. [Just the opposite of ozone. Very good in the 'upper' atmosphere, very bad (smog) in the 'lower' atmoshere. Can cause health issues after prolonged exposure.]

'Modern' meteorological records have only been recorded for about 150 years. Accurately for about 60 years. But we know global rainfall, temps, etc. going back tens of thousands of years. Its called science. And while some people fear this thing called science (see evolution) it has brought us a better understanding of those things around us. Meteorology and vulcanology being two. Now if you can tell me why and how it rains. I'll explain how water vapor in the lower atmoshere is a good thing, how water vapor in the 'upper' atmoshere may be a bad thing, and what the negative effects of volcanic activity are.

Bonus Question: Do you know how Noah's Ark got to the top of Mt. Ararat, Turkey?

I am not a believer in the global warming theory. It is not a fact... it's still an unproven theory with many authorities lining up on both sides (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-30-2007/0004516240&EDATE=) of the issue... that doesn't mean I don't believe in pollution nor things having a negative impact on our environment. That aside...


I am still considering three other candidates strongly:

The wrangler 4 door
The grand vitara
The xterra

We are starting to lean towards the wrangler but will be testing all four to see if two full size carseats plus one boaster seat will fit in the back seat. This will be a huge test for us.

The rear seat entry for the H3 is too tight, which is why the FJ is not on the list either.

With all due respect, global warming is not a theory anymore. It is FACT. Ask yourself. Who are these authorities? Who are their friends? Who has the most to lose from accepting global warming as fact?

Exxon/Mobil recently stopped funding groups who are critical of global warming. At the same time they are having more open dialog with environmental groups and 'Kyoto' member countries. If Exxon/Mobil can SUCK IT UP, so can everyone else.

That aside. Take a look at the CRD WK.






RANT OVER :mad:

ugh - hi jacked thread.

seriously do either...diesels get great mileage and bio fuels are a great other option to gas..this makes no sence that we would argue one over the other or why. both should be better then an h1 on gas. We're all looking at the patriot as our next vehicle on this board and it gets great mileage so kudos to us for choosing wisely.

...Bonus Question: Do you know how Noah's Ark got to the top of Mt. Ararat, Turkey?


With all due respect, global warming is not a theory anymore. It is FACT. Ask yourself. Who are these authorities? Who are their friends? Who has the most to lose from accepting global warming as fact?

Exxon/Mobil recently stopped funding groups who are critical of global warming. At the same time they are having more open dialog with environmental groups and 'Kyoto' member countries. If Exxon/Mobil can SUCK IT UP, so can everyone else.

That aside. Take a look at the CRD WK...

The earth is not static, heights change. What was land is now sea and vice versa... There are fossilized sea bed features in the deserts of the SW.

I could also ask to look to see who's are the friends of those pushing the global warming movement. Who has the most to gain if the theory is believed.

The Hummers are better for the environment than the hybrids when you consider the dust-to-dust lifespan of vehicles. The chemicals used to create those batterys as well as disposal of them after their short lifespan... the gen I hybrid batteries live something like 5 years at best.

Wikipedia is only as factual as the information the masses enter into it. Anything that is commonly held as true is posted as such... simply majority posting rules the definition.

I am interested to see the CRD WK... I hope the engine is opened up to other Jeep models soon!

Bonus Question II: What caused the end of the last ice age?

The CRD WK is awesome. The 3.0L CRD V6 in the WK can beat a 5.7L Hemi V8 equiped WK off the line up to about 30mph from what the brand reps were telling me at the auto show. Sounds like they read frosty's post too...
2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD - First Drive & Review

...We had a chance to drive both a Hemi-powered WK and the CRD, and the differences in acceleration ain't like the proverbial tortoise and hare. The butt-dyno says the diesel we tested had the edge from zero to 30 mph. With 376 lb-ft on tap from 1,600 to 2,800 rpm, it ought to, but whatever the Hemi gains further up the rpm range, the diesel isn't as far behind as you would expect. It does tend to get a bit winded at higher rpm, but like many Euro-diesels, it does a pretty good gasser imitation...

The part about the CRD I like the most is the 7200lbs tow rating. That would make it a possible tow rig to flat tow my TJ. The part I don't like is the $40,000 price tag.

I agree Jeep needs to put the 3.0L CRD in the Wrangler, Wrangler Unlimited, and Commander. :D

Bonus Question II Answer: The epilogue shows Scrat having a near death experience after falling into the fissure he opened to divert the flood and save the animals. He enters a heaven full of acorns, amazed completely. He sees a gigantic acorn, reaches for it and nearly grabs it. Suddenly, he finds himself torn away from heaven. He wakes up in the arms of Sid the sloth, who had resuscitated him. Taken from his heavenly, giant acorn, Scrat is enraged and proceeds to attack his savior. (Info provided by Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Age:_The_Meltdown) :D :D :D

No doubt in my mind, if it's not a Patriot for its price and fuel economy, I'll go for a Suzuki Grand Vitara 4X4. Because of its price, the very positive reviews and the fact it has been classified Best Buy by Consumer Guide for 2007 over all others SUVS.

A true heavy duty unibody with integrated H frame 4X4, with high, high lock, low lock and neutral. Manual transmission. V6 engine, 185 HP and 186 Lbs/ft. torque. High quality finish exterior and interior, nice wheels and good tires. All that at an affordable price. It's been compare to much more expensive SUVS.

It's been on my mind for a while, only the Patriot could pull me away and still....:confused:

Check it out

http://suzukiauto.com/sr_07/grand_vitara/reviews/award_2006-11-02_cg_best_buy.php

No doubt in my mind, if it's not a Patriot for its price and fuel economy, I'll go for a Suzuki Grand Vitara 4X4. Because of its price, the very positive reviews and the fact it has been classified Best Buy by Consumer Guide for 2007 over all others SUVS.

A true heavy duty unibody with integrated H frame 4X4, with high, high lock, low lock and neutral. Manual transmission. V6 engine, 185 HP and 186 Lbs/ft. torque. High quality finish exterior and interior, nice wheels and good tires. All that at an affordable price. It's been compare to much more expensive SUVS.

It's been on my mind for a while, only the Patriot could pull me away and still.... :confused:

Check it out

http://suzukiauto.com/sr_07/grand_vi...g_best_buy.php

I like the Grand Vitara. My main problem with it is the low ground clearance. This is a problem for 2 reasons. They ran the exhaust is dangerously exposed and the skid plates are plastic.

As I have noticed in this forum, many prefer manual transmission and I do too. For me this is the only way to really get a driving feeling and the system also have advantages. This combinaison is becoming harder to find and does limit the choice.

All this to say that the Suzuki Grand Vitara offers a manual transmission on its 4X4. Another reason for it being my only choice after the Patriot.

BTW Forget faulty link in precedent message the following link should be better for a proper source of information.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2007-suzuki-grand-vitara.htm:o

Ground clearance of GV is 7.9 in. compare to 8.0 in. for the Patriot...not a big difference.

well, if your talking apples to apples then you have to compare the grand vitara to the FDII trail rated Patriot which has 9.0 inches of clearance, steel skid plates, and all of the uncarriage components are neatly tucked above the bottom of the frame. While the Patriot has a similiar approach angle, the patriot's departure angle is better, and I would bet that the Patriots breakover angle is better but its impossible to say for sure since Suzuki didnt publish it.

The Hummers are better for the environment than the hybrids when you consider the dust-to-dust lifespan of vehicles. The chemicals used to create those batterys as well as disposal of them after their short lifespan... the gen I hybrid batteries live something like 5 years at best.

This is last I am going to post about this b/c the claim that the Hummer is better than a hybrid is so rediculous.

Hummer claim the diesel has a 570 mile range with a 27 gallon tank plus a 24.5 auxillary tank which come to 11 mpg.

The Toyota Prius hybrid gets a combined mileage of 55 mpg.

Even though its a fact that biodiesel is not cleaner than gas although it is cleaner than regular diesel, lets assume it is.

Biodiesel would have to be 5 times cleaner than gas just to break even. Show me a single scientific study that says that, that doesnt come from a pro-biodiesel site. Combine that with the fact that the Prius is an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV) which no diesel has been shown to be as clean as.

The batteries can be recycled. When you combine that with the fact that the Prius consumes less, pollutes less, requires less rubber, less oil, and less maintence, there is no way in hell the Hummer is more environmentally friendly.

I am not completely convinced of all aspects of global warming but I see no harm in protecting the environment and there are much more immediate concerns regarding pollution than just global warming like respiratory disease, cancer, dangers to food supplies, and the list goes on and on.

Canadian prices:
Grand Vitara starts at 25495
Jeep Patriot starts at 18995

v6 or not thats not much of an option - plus no dealers around.

I dont care about the prius - it DOES NOT GET 55 mpg...thats why the EPA is changing the way they measure mileage.

...Bonus Question II Answer: The epilogue shows Scrat having a near death experience after falling into the fissure he opened to divert the flood and save the animals....

Now that's funny right there! Nearly spit coffee all over the keyboard.

This is last I am going to post about this b/c the claim...
...I am not completely convinced of all aspects of global warming but I see no harm in protecting the environment and there are much more immediate concerns...

I agree with 90% of the portion above and agree that this is a Jeep related site, not a hummer vs. hybrid site (nor is this thread). There are many more pressing things than theoretical debates.

I dont care about the prius - it DOES NOT GET 55 mpg...thats why the EPA is changing the way they measure mileage.

Ever seen a non-stolen one off-roading? It will come down to functionality and budget for me. We checked out the Liberty CRD but didn't like the front seats. That diesel VW looks cool but it won't be out until late in the year. I hope to be on the trails soon.... very soon.

Canadian prices:
Grand Vitara starts at 25495
Jeep Patriot starts at 18995

v6 or not thats not much of an option - plus no dealers around.

Comparison should be made with a liberty or grand cherokee 4X4, selec-track or command-trac and well equipped, great warranty, than we could really compare prices.

GV is of a higher class and finish. Less dealers I admit, but enough for proper service.

I still like the Patriot for the price, look and fuel economy;)

Comparison should be to the patriot if you intend on posting to jeeppatriot.com under Jeep Patriot General Discussion :)

Well, after examining my options, it looks like I may get another GC.

Well, after examining my options, it looks like I may get another GC.

Care to expand a little about your decision??

Two major reasons:

1) The 2.4 L - didn't like it.
2) The lack of a FDII until some unknown date.

My current GC is a lease and I'm over miles. I need to buy something in the next month, therefore I can't wait for the FDII to come out. Appearance wise the outside of the Patriot is cool, but the interior does have a cheaper feeling to it. If I buy a GC this month I can 5,000 worth of incentives, I believe I would only get 1,500 on the Patriot. The fuel efficiency of the GC to the FDII isn't that great, not enough for me to get the smaller vehicle.