First day with my Patty. 30 whole miles! Very satisfied around town and impressed with the Auto-Stick (fun with engine breaking!).

In full-auto mode, I notice that while the CVT is smooth, I can definitely feel it "finding" the right revs, especially at low speeds and low RPMs. It's nothing that concerns me, but a strange, visceral feeling that's no doubt part of driving new technology.

I've heard some mumblings about the CVT requiring a "break-in" period or "computer learning curve" and was wondering if anyone could elaborate on that.

Does the CVT become smoother or more attuned to your driving over time?

Thanks in advance for your opinions,

N.

Short answer: Yes.

It took more than 2 months for my CVT to learn my habits. ;)

Does the CVT learn or adjust to a second driver's "habit"? I bought this Jeep, but, my daughter is the main driver ('till she get her own car), because she drives much longer distances to student teaching, than I do to my job,and I want her in the safer vehicle. She graduates in 2 weeks, and will hopefully start getting paid for her teaching, and get her own car! So, when I finally get my new Jeep again, will it like me? If so, will it take 2 months?

Just my .02, but I think the CVT is only reactive to what the computer *learns* and consequently tells the motor to do (gas and air mix, firing timing - that kind of thing) Based on the revs and torque from the engine, the CVT just *belts* itself accordingly. All the ESP stuff notwithstanding mind you.

I notice my CVT reacts differently in the cold. It is less smooth (as if changing gears) until it warms up. Then, the CVT is its old smooth self.

Thoughts?

Short answer: Yes.

It took more than 2 months for my CVT to learn my habits. ;)

Care to elaborate?

I'm very interested in folks' experiences with how the CVT adapts and learns over time. We all know the benefits and smoothness of a broken-in engine/transmission, but with something so obviously governed by a computer, it seriously intrigues me.

There's also a few things that strike me as particularly "computer-controlled" and wanted to know if those are adaptable or not.

Example:

During city driving, after taking my foot off the throttle and allowing the speed to decrease and the RPMs to fall, I feel the slightest hesitation as it finds it's idle point (about 800). This isn't anywhere near the lag or feeling of a true downshifting and very subtle. It feels "natural" and doesn't worry me. Nonetheless, it makes me wonder if the engine/transmission/computer is still adapting or learning the natural point at which it will find idle, etc.

Does this sound like a sensible way to think of my newfangled fancy-pants transmission as the first few months and thousand mies break her in?

Thanks,

N.

Pretty much any automatic transmission "learns" the driver... And the way the CVT works, it shouldn't need any real break-in period. It's just 2 pulleys that change size, and a metal belt.

I guess its the valve timing's computer that learns your driving habbit to get the best efficiency/performance. it took mine around 3000mi to do it...

Care to elaborate?

Well it's really little things. Only real example I can name is acceleration.


Immediately after break-in and the following months it used to rev up really high, produce moderate acceleration and keep the revs quite high for a long period of time before reaching the wanted speed and if I let the pedal raise at all off the gas the acceleration sort of diminished quite fast and the only way I could make it accelerate again was to get back to high-revving (ie. let it "kickdown"). I don't really like the sound of a four banger at 5000rpm so this wasn't really my cup of tea. But I do tend to slam the pedal down to get out of the way of incoming traffic and I like acceleration (hey who doesn't).

Today is a good example of how it works now. In the morning I drove the car thru the small roads and onto the highway, slam the pedal and acceleration is instant and quite nice and then I slowly raise my foot up and the acceleration doesn't seize as fast as it used to, meaning acceleration stays more 'constant' but the revs come down at the same time. Just like my lovely korean CVT is supposed to act. I'm imagining of course that lower revs mean lower gasoline consumption and the onboard computer seems to agree with me but I'm pretty sure that the benefit isn't economy, it's just convenience.

Same difference can be noticed in the city when I'm zooming from light to light (always in a hurry ofc). High-revving scooter-sound is gone and replaced by a low humm of a big four (2.4 IS BIG compared to the 1.1-1.6L's most others here have). I guess the biggest difference here is that it doesn't 'kickdown' as much as it used to, meaning there's more low-end torque available and the CVT is using that instead of sliding into high gears for the HP.

So I DO tend the think the CVT has learned how I drive, but I'm pretty sure that most of it is me learning how the CVT acts to my commands compared to a normal automatic transmission. ALSO most of the changes may be explained by the increase of low end torque as the engine breaks itself in.

Whichever way it goes, I'm VERY happy with how the car has improved in the past months.

I notice my CVT reacts differently in the cold. It is less smooth (as if changing gears) until it warms up. Then, the CVT is its old smooth self.
Thoughts?

I haven't noticed this and it's been from -10 C below freezing to + 20 C during my 'ownership experience'. But then again, I use the block heater always when it's under +5 C.

I'm guessing (and yes it's all a big guess) that all oil in European cars has been changed from the stuff you use in the USA due to different standards. The difference may be explained also by a different grade of oil (also in the same grade the type of oil - synthetic vs fully synthetic vs mineral etc.). From my experience on USA cars, most of them tend to have the 'cheapest possible' kinda of oil that fits and European dealers seem to the it's better for them to put in more expensive oil to keep problems at bay.

The engines max hp is at just over 4,000 rpms.
So for me, I try to do most of my hard accelerating in this rpm range.
On my sportbike. If you give it full throttle, it seems like it is bogging a bit. But if you give it gradual throttle it takes right off.
This is the way I use the gas pedal on the Pat as well. The difference in punching it to the floor and pushing it down till its in the power ban is less then a second.
Don't know anything about a vehicle learning a drivers preference. I always thought it was the Driver that had to learn the vehicles preference.

if I let the pedal raise at all off the gas the acceleration sort of diminished quite fast and the only way I could make it accelerate again was to get back to high-revving (ie. let it "kickdown"). I don't really like the sound of a four banger at 5000rpm so this wasn't really my cup of tea. But I do tend to slam the pedal down to get out of the way of incoming traffic and I like acceleration (hey who doesn't).
Today is a good example of how it works now. In the morning I drove the car thru the small roads and onto the highway, slam the pedal and acceleration is instant and quite nice and then I slowly raise my foot up and the acceleration doesn't seize as fast as it used to, meaning acceleration stays more 'constant' but the revs come down at the same time. Just like my lovely korean CVT is supposed to act. I'm imagining of course that lower revs mean lower gasoline consumption and the onboard computer seems to agree with me but I'm pretty sure that the benefit isn't economy, it's just convenience.


Isn't our transmission made by Jatco, subsidiary of Nissan - i.e. Japan?

That's very similar to what I've been experiencing. Both the nature of the CVT to get very "tight" and decelerate immediately as I take my foot off the gas. Almost feels like engine breaking or one of the Auto-Stick "fake" gears.

So you've found that when you're not giving it gas (or letting off the throttle), it's a smoother deceleration?

I wonder if that sensation or effect is tied into the hesitation I feel before it hits idle...

does any body know if I can change the freedom I to freedom II, that means CVT2L, to a compass???,

does any body know if I can change the freedom I to freedom II, that means CVT2L, to a compass???,

Hey I wanna know if it's possible to do just the opposite...

well, I'm sorta kidding, but also sorta serious. I'm less than impressed with the gas mileage I'll be getting with the FDII patriot (based on what others have been getting), and since I never will go off-roading it's overkill. Also, since the tank is so small, it causes you to really plan out your gas stops if you're going anywhere remote. It wasn't my call to get the FDII as I just wanted the FDI...but I am stuck with it now.

I like the car a lot, though, and this is the only thing I would change. It'd be nice if I could just do a swap, but it's probably a lot more complicated than that as I'm sure there are a lot of mechanical differences between the FDI patriots and the FDII patriots; and as such it's more complex than just switching one for the other. I suppose the real problem I have with the gas mileage is that I'm not getting that much better gas mileage than I was in my previous liberty, and this is somewhat annoying because the main reason I looked at the patriot over other vehicles was for fuel economy. Then again, it wasn't my call on what vehicle to get, so I'll just have to deal with it.

anyways, I know it's probably not easy, and if it's possible to do, it would probably cost a ton (at which point it probably makes more sense to just get another car?). I really don't know at all though so I hope someone else can shed some light on this.

my CVT was, uh, a 'short bus' CVT, took it about 4,000 miles to learn my around-town style. i suspect that is due to the fact that out of those 4,000 miles, 80% were on the highway, so it didn't have the opportunity to adjust for low rpm or high torque conditions.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm the one who's learned the CVT; not vise-versa. Just a thought...

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm the one who's learned the CVT; not vise-versa. Just a thought...

I totally agree - In my first few days with the Pat, I've noticed that my foot picks up a rhythm that is making up for a lack of shifting. It's as if I'm subconsciously "massaging" the transmission to the right speed...

That said, it's still extremely tight on the low-end, during coasting and deceleration. There's that minor hesitation or bump as it slows to idle. It's that stuff that I'm wondering if it will loosen or fall into place.

I agree with luffing, I have had my FDII just over a month now and I have definately adjusted my driving a little to the CVT. I actually like the CVT better now that I have driven it 3000 miles than i even did on the test drive.

I have adapted to have less of a heavy foot with it. Just need to teach the wife this and we'll be set.

My very one problem is that I didnt know the compass 4x4 have not low speed, and in a big declivity if u stop,,, u cant start, u have to go down and get impulse,, what a mistake Iv made,, but I think they can change the transmition or some thing with the computer,, I dont know


Hey I wanna know if it's possible to do just the opposite...

well, I'm sorta kidding, but also sorta serious. I'm less than impressed with the gas mileage I'll be getting with the FDII patriot (based on what others have been getting), and since I never will go off-roading it's overkill. Also, since the tank is so small, it causes you to really plan out your gas stops if you're going anywhere remote. It wasn't my call to get the FDII as I just wanted the FDI...but I am stuck with it now.

I like the car a lot, though, and this is the only thing I would change. It'd be nice if I could just do a swap, but it's probably a lot more complicated than that as I'm sure there are a lot of mechanical differences between the FDI patriots and the FDII patriots; and as such it's more complex than just switching one for the other. I suppose the real problem I have with the gas mileage is that I'm not getting that much better gas mileage than I was in my previous liberty, and this is somewhat annoying because the main reason I looked at the patriot over other vehicles was for fuel economy. Then again, it wasn't my call on what vehicle to get, so I'll just have to deal with it.

anyways, I know it's probably not easy, and if it's possible to do, it would probably cost a ton (at which point it probably makes more sense to just get another car?). I really don't know at all though so I hope someone else can shed some light on this.

There's that minor hesitation or bump as it slows to idle. It's that stuff that I'm wondering if it will loosen or fall into place.

I just turned over 500 miles on my Patriot, and I know exactly what you're talking about. As I'm rolling to a stop, there's this feel like when a torque converter releases on a traditional automatic just as you're nearing a complete stop. I've noticed it because I tend to not put a lot of pressure on my brake pedal, and a couple of times I've had to increase the pressure because when this bump occurs it sort of propels the vehicle forwards somewhat. Sort of like if the cogs or whatever in the transmission were elliptical instead of round, but only on that one revolution.

Unfortunately I can't tell you if this goes away or not, but at least I'm experiencing the same thing.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm the one who's learned the CVT; not vise-versa. Just a thought...

Don't go and throw logic into the equation luffing. You know logic has no place in here :D

(you're right though)

As for that "bump" some people are feeling at slow speeds, you're not imagining it. I get mine at exactly 15MPH. It's not bad, just seems odd from a shiftless transmission (their wording not mine). It neither increases, nor lessens though..might as well get used to it. :icon_rolleyes:

My 'bump' is still there at 7,500 miles, although I've figured out how to avoid it most of the time (prepare to stop early and shift into neutral :) )

That bump you feel is not really a "bump". When all of us with CVT let off the gas completely we all get the engine braking to some degree. It seems to me that it depends on what speed you are at when you let off: going above 40 and it seems to coast instead of brake and when you let off below 30 you definitely feel it. I think the bump we all feel around 10-15 MPH is actually the torque converter letting go. You know when it happens because you suddenly feel the need to put on more brake to slow down. Very wierd to put on the brakes and just when you are almost stopped it is like you hit the gas.

I know that I have gotten very good at being able to work the hyper sensitive throttle. Taking off from a stop I gently ease in the throttle, revs climb to about 2500, as speed increases I begin to apply more throttle and RPM drops to 2000 (when torque converter is fully engaged), as I approach my desired speed, within 5 MPH of target, I ease back off and hold right at the point between no throttle and more throttle. It takes some practice to be able to hit that sweet spot without letting off too much. As many others have said, I watch quit a bit in front of me and will let off and coast to stops whenever I can. This has taken some adjustment because of the engine braking being so pronounced at lower speeds. At first I found myself coming to a stop before I wanted to.

That bump you feel is not really a "bump".


I don't know if we're saying the same thing but in a different way, or I used a bad anology, but what I am feeling is definitely tactile. Call it a bump, slip, or release, but it happens every single time I decelerate. The part that seems odd about it, is the fact that there is no sensation of this "bump/slip,etc" on acceleration so feeling it one way and not the other can be unnerving to the first-timers.

Oh, and all this is dependent on me coasting to the stop. While actively braking, I usually don't feel it unless I just 'barely' have my foot on the brakes.

With all that said...is that what you were referring to Joe? :D

i occasionally feel this too. It's one of those "for lack of better term" moments.. it almost feels like its dropping down a final gear or something, letting the rear end settle better?

I don't know if we're saying the same thing but in a different way, or I used a bad anology, but what I am feeling is definitely tactile. Call it a bump, slip, or release, but it happens every single time I decelerate.

Yes we are talking about the same thing and yes it always happens.

The part that seems odd about it, is the fact that there is no sensation of this "bump/slip,etc" on acceleration so feeling it one way and not the other can be unnerving to the first-timers. Oh, and all this is dependent on me coasting to the stop. While actively braking, I usually don't feel it unless I just 'barely' have my foot on the brakes.

We feel it when stopping because when it bumps/slips/releases it gives us the feeling of accelerating when everything we are intending to do is decelerate*. It is especially noticeable when you are lightly braking because most of the slowing down is being done by the engine/transmission and when it lets go you must apply more brake to make up the difference.

You don't "feel" it when accelerating from a stop because it is just less acceleration (you are still going faster just not as fast). Like I said before, it will rev to 2500 RPM and then drop to 2000. That is the transmission fully engaging and becoming a load on the engine.


* This same feeling is how motion sickness works. When your inner ear (balance) tells your brain one thing and your eyes are telling it something else the brain gets confused and you feel ill as it tries to compensate for what may or may not be happening.

This same feeling is how motion sickness works. When your inner ear (balance) tells your brain one thing and your eyes are telling it something else the brain gets confused and you feel ill as it tries to compensate for what may or may not be happening.

You apparently haven't seen me try to walk and chew gum at the same time.

The whole brain/inner ear/motion detection thing is kinda foreign to me.:o

To me, it seems like its changing to a higher gear. Must be a computer setting that does it. Its kinda wierd, one minute your engine braking and the next sec its like your in nuetral.

You apparently haven't seen me try to walk and chew gum at the same time.

The whole brain/inner ear/motion detection thing is kinda foreign to me.:o

Now it is clear why you need to handicap Wade at golf. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Yes we are talking about the same thing and yes it always happens.



We feel it when stopping because when it bumps/slips/releases it gives us the feeling of accelerating when everything we are intending to do is decelerate*. It is especially noticeable when you are lightly braking because most of the slowing down is being done by the engine/transmission and when it lets go you must apply more brake to make up the difference.

You don't "feel" it when accelerating from a stop because it is just less acceleration (you are still going faster just not as fast). Like I said before, it will rev to 2500 RPM and then drop to 2000. That is the transmission fully engaging and becoming a load on the engine.


* This same feeling is how motion sickness works. When your inner ear (balance) tells your brain one thing and your eyes are telling it something else the brain gets confused and you feel ill as it tries to compensate for what may or may not be happening.

I think i figured out what it is -- its the brake-assist using the rear brakes. [Driving in the rain today I felt it, again.. was paying more attention, because i was expecting it]
You dont feel it when you're accelerating because.. you're accelerating, not braking. lol

Now it is clear why you need to handicap Wade at golf. :Na_Na_Na_Na:

ATTN: WADE,

I told you I needed 4 strokes a side and now I have proof! :D:D

I think i figured out what it is -- its the brake-assist using the rear brakes. [Driving in the rain today I felt it, again.. was paying more attention, because i was expecting it]
You dont feel it when you're accelerating because.. you're accelerating, not braking. lol


ehh..don't quote me on this, but the brake assist isn't utilized during everyday, normal driving duties. I believe that is just when needed during 'less-than-optimal' driving conditions exist.

..but if I'm wrong I sure am gonna hear about it..

Good to see a few other Pat owners chiming in about the "bump/slip/release".

It's definitely the torque converter, which I've looked into. At first I wondered if it could actually be going into a low/neutral gear. For lack of a better explanation, the CVT is sort of like a two-gear automatic with any variation at any given time between where those two gears are. They sort of jump over one another as RPMs go higher and speed increases.

My hypothesis was that as the engine breaks and the Pat decelerates, it is forced into the lowest position on the CVT in order to prepare ("tighten") for acceleration. It has to drop down somewhat to be available for all the torque needed to take off. I guess this could happen either with the two-pulley system of the CVT itself or by the computer in the torque converter, but either way, it does make sense.

I always noticed weird stuff like this on my Murano (three-month rental) with a Jatco CVT, but never looked into it because it was a temporary ride.

Even with the "bump" being a consistent issue, I'd go so far as to say it's much better than a traditional automatic, especially in city driving. The smoothness of being able to crawl along in rush-hour traffic and give it a consistent amount of gas to take off at a stop light more than make up for a reasonably natural feeling compared with other automatics...


That bump you feel is not really a "bump". When all of us with CVT let off the gas completely we all get the engine braking to some degree. It seems to me that it depends on what speed you are at when you let off: going above 40 and it seems to coast instead of brake and when you let off below 30 you definitely feel it. I think the bump we all feel around 10-15 MPH is actually the torque converter letting go. You know when it happens because you suddenly feel the need to put on more brake to slow down. Very wierd to put on the brakes and just when you are almost stopped it is like you hit the gas.
I know that I have gotten very good at being able to work the hyper sensitive throttle. Taking off from a stop I gently ease in the throttle, revs climb to about 2500, as speed increases I begin to apply more throttle and RPM drops to 2000 (when torque converter is fully engaged), as I approach my desired speed, within 5 MPH of target, I ease back off and hold right at the point between no throttle and more throttle. It takes some practice to be able to hit that sweet spot without letting off too much. As many others have said, I watch quit a bit in front of me and will let off and coast to stops whenever I can. This has taken some adjustment because of the engine braking being so pronounced at lower speeds. At first I found myself coming to a stop before I wanted to.

Ok, I'm leary of anyone who uses the word "hypothesis" in these forums :p

Ok, I'm leary of anyone who uses the word "hypothesis" in these forums :p

Let's not go too far off-topic...

Are you "leary" or "weary"?

If you're Leary, I'd say pass the peyote...

10th-grade education. Makes me apt to be a little articulate and use expensive words. :blah:

Let's not go too far off-topic...

Are you "leary" or "weary"?

If you're Leary, I'd say pass the peyote...

10th-grade education. Makes me apt to be a little articulate and use expensive words. :blah:

Weary because I'm old ;)
Leary cuz big words are used by politicians and lawyers..get my drift? :D

(and to stay on topic..you made some good points)

i occasionally feel this too. It's one of those "for lack of better term" moments.. it almost feels like its dropping down a final gear or something, letting the rear end settle better?

I suspect that this is what is happening. Forty-five years ago, when I was learning how to drive in a manual three-speed pickup, I experienced something similar. I could be decellerating in second, and I put the clutch in, the vehice would stop decellerating and continue coasting at the same speed. It was obvious what was happening, since I had just pushed in the clutch pedal.

The engine has to disconnect from the transmission when you come to a stop. Otherwise, the engine would stop running when the car stopped. When the computer disconnects the engine from the tranny, the decelleration due to engine compression braking will stop.

That said, I test drove a CVT 2WD Patriot, and what I was feeling resembled what I felt with an early 80's lockup torque converter in a three speed hydramatic. The torque converter was not releasing until the engine tried to maintain it's idle speed as the application of the brakes to a full stop adn forced the torque converter clutch to unlock.

On the Pat, it felt the most apparent when I had the Autostick in like "3" as I came to a stop and finally it would shift to "1". If I wasn't playing with the Autostick, it didn't seem as abrupt.

I am considering a Patriot with the Freedom Drive I. Does anyone have one with CVT and Freedom Drive I?

If so, what RPM are you doing at 60 or 65 on the freeway on level terrain? I drove a Patriot with the 5MT and Freedom Drive I and it was doing about 2150 in fifth at 60 Mph.

What sort of gas mileage are you getting with the Freedom Drive I and CVT in town, mixed, and highway driving. And is your driving conservative (like me at 63), spirited (like me at 35), or like me as a teen age hotrodder? My wife sometimes still accuses me of being a teenage hotrodder. :)

I suspect that this is what is happening. Forty-five years ago, when I was learning how to drive in a manual three-speed pickup, I experienced something similar. I could be decellerating in second, and I put the clutch in, the vehice would stop decellerating and continue coasting at the same speed. It was obvious what was happening, since I had just pushed in the clutch pedal.
The enigne has to disconnect from the transmission when you come to a stop. Otherwise, the engine would stop running when the car stopped. When the computer disconnects the engine from the tranny, the decelleration due to engine compression braking will stop.
That said, I test drove a CVT 2WD Patriot, and what I was feeling resembled what I felt with an early 80's lockup torque converter in a three speed hydramatic. The torque converter was not releasing until the engine tried to maintain it's idle speed as the application of the brakes to a full stop adn forced the torque converter clutch to unlock.
On the Pat, it felt the most apparent when I had the Autostick in like "3" as I came to a stop and finally it would shift to "1". If I wasn't playing with the Autostick, it didn't seem as abrupt.

Whether it's the torque converter or not and whether it's a CVT or not, doesn't the thing have to change its ratios "on the fly"? As it slows, it's got to drastically let the "grip" go on the ratio. Wouldn't it be most apparent when coasting/slowing since the engine isn't hustling and bustling? That seems to be the best explanation...

Whether it's the torque converter or not and whether it's a CVT or not, doesn't the thing have to change its ratios "on the fly"? As it slows, it's got to drastically let the "grip" go on the ratio. Wouldn't it be most apparent when coasting/slowing since the engine isn't hustling and bustling? That seems to be the best explanation...

Agreed. I believe that we are all describing variations of the same thing.

As the sig says I have the Freedom Drive I CVT 4x4 Patriot. My mileage with mostly city is around 20 mpg (US) , mixed is 21.5 and mostly highway is 23.5. I use cruise and set it to 110 kph (about 65 mph) when on highway. I have 4000kms on the Jeep (2400 miles)

Re the RPMS - at 110 kms I am doing just uder 2100 rpms (acc to tach and scanguage)

Nice touch. My daughter went through the same 'routine'.