when is the best time to do my first oil change? I am currently at 570 miles.

Also, is synthetic oil recommended? when should I switch to synthetic?

I did the first change at 1400 and went to a full synthetic. First change anywhere around 1000 miles is fine and you can go to synthetic at that time.

Although I've read contradicting opinions on this, it seems like some folks think doing an early oil change with a new car helps due to break-in. I waited until 4500 miles and changed mine, came out blacker 'n hell. Used Castrol Syntec Blend with a Fram filter (don't shoot me for the Fram, all I could find at the time). Next time I'll probably use a Mopar if I can't find a K & N. Used the K & N on my prior car, a Disco II. Heck the repair costs on the Disco II almost were equivalent to the whole cost of the !@#$!@# Patriot. Don't understand why the Brits can design a car that can go Billy-Goat up a mountain but then cost $7k to fix!

Anyway hope that helps, I do recall the change being incredibly simple.

Take care & enjoy the ride
Walter

You better read up on your warranty requirements.I swear...these guys are like insurance companies, and will look for the smallest loophole in order to try to squirm out of any repairs normally covered by the warranty, if they can determine you didn't follow the maintenance schedule.

My Canadian Patriot...1st one is due @ 5000 kms. I'll get this one done at the dealership, determine how much it is, and ask the synthetic question at the same time.

Although I've read contradicting opinions on this, it seems like some folks think doing an early oil change with a new car helps due to break-in. I waited until 4500 miles and changed mine, came out blacker 'n hell. Used Castrol Syntec Blend with a Fram filter (don't shoot me for the Fram, all I could find at the time). Next time I'll probably use a Mopar if I can't find a K & N. Used the K & N on my prior car, a Disco II. Heck the repair costs on the Disco II almost were equivalent to the whole cost of the !@#$!@# Patriot. Don't understand why the Brits can design a car that can go Billy-Goat up a mountain but then cost $7k to fix!

Anyway hope that helps, I do recall the change being incredibly simple.

Take care & enjoy the ride
Walter

We had a disco II se7 also! Gave it away for the Patriot!! The Disco did cost a lot of $$$$$$$ to fix. It had to go!

I did the first change at 1400 and went to a full synthetic. First change anywhere around 1000 miles is fine and you can go to synthetic at that time.

we have a "know it all" here at work who swears to "break in" a vehicle, you should drive it like you stole it. He also says to never use synthetic until after 15000 miles. ( then again this is a guy who changes his oli once a year or 15000 miles because mobile 1 says it will last 25000).

I drive pretty conservatively and havent gone over 72 (local speed limit is 70)

Although I've read contradicting opinions on this, it seems like some folks think doing an early oil change with a new car helps due to break-in. I waited until 4500 miles and changed mine, came out blacker 'n hell. Used Castrol Syntec Blend with a Fram filter (don't shoot me for the Fram, all I could find at the time). Next time I'll probably use a Mopar if I can't find a K & N. Used the K & N on my prior car, a Disco II. Heck the repair costs on the Disco II almost were equivalent to the whole cost of the !@#$!@# Patriot. Don't understand why the Brits can design a car that can go Billy-Goat up a mountain but then cost $7k to fix!

Anyway hope that helps, I do recall the change being incredibly simple.

Take care & enjoy the ride
Walter

Im thinking Mobile 1 sythetic, would prefer valvoline, but couldnt find 5 quarts in 5W20. I ordered a Wix filter part number 57073 (they didnt have any on hand so i special ordered them)

we have a "know it all" here at work who swears to "break in" a vehicle, you should drive it like you stole it. He also says to never use synthetic until after 15000 miles. ( then again this is a guy who changes his oli once a year or 15000 miles because mobile 1 says it will last 25000).

I drive pretty conservatively and havent gone over 72 (local speed limit is 70)


Yeah, that's old school thinking with the Synthetic change. Modern engines are ok to switch to synthetic at first change. I think in the past the new engine rings would break in better with dino oil, but from what I have rad that is no longer the case. Something along those lines, I would need to go do some research to confirm what it was exactly.


The drive it like you stole during break in theory has gone both ways. It seems to make more sense to keep it easy, but some engines do seem to fair well from the rough break in. Might be related to tolerances in the engine, not sure on that.

Your work know it all is crazy, 15,000 miles it too long. I wonder if he ever send it off for analysis to make sure he's not doing any damage.

The shop boss at my dealership said that I should change the oil at 6,000 miles per the maint. schedule. He said no problem using synthetic "but , that it would be a waste of money". Especialy with the lifetime warrenty, if it blows up anytime they will fix it for free. My first oil change is free, so I will take a good book and let them do it. After that I will do them myself. Contrary to what some will say, DIU fluid changes will not void the warrenty. I have always done my oil changes at 3,000 miles, times and technology change, so I guess I can too. Just as a side note: the SRV vehicles come with synthetic from the factory, they are not covered by the lifetime warrenty.

I saw a section in the owners manual about break in. If you read it let me know if anything important is in there. I don't think the oil thing is a big deal. All the major oils meet the requirements. Synthetics exceed the requirements. I use Mobil 1 synthetic and change every 5k miles. This makes it easy to see when it is due. On regular oil I would go every 3k miles. Doing the math the more expensive oil at longer intervals comes out to about the same cost. I changed the oil the first time before 3K miles to get the synthetic in A.S.A.P.

for me I change to my second oil change (10 000km canadien) for a full syntech Mobile1 5w20, change every 5 000km

I used Mobil 1 5w20 on my first oil change- about $20 for a jug at Walmart south of the Canada-US border. I plan to change my oil every 5k km (3k miles). I used an AC Delco filter but I'm still looking for a place where I can buy a good filter for less than I paid ($10)

Although I've read contradicting opinions on this, it seems like some folks think doing an early oil change with a new car helps due to break-in. I waited until 4500 miles and changed mine, came out blacker 'n hell. Used Castrol Syntec Blend with a Fram filter (don't shoot me for the Fram, all I could find at the time). Next time I'll probably use a Mopar if I can't find a K & N. Used the K & N on my prior car, a Disco II. Heck the repair costs on the Disco II almost were equivalent to the whole cost of the !@#$!@# Patriot. Don't understand why the Brits can design a car that can go Billy-Goat up a mountain but then cost $7k to fix!

Anyway hope that helps, I do recall the change being incredibly simple.

Take care & enjoy the ride
Walterwe wont shoot you because you know fram is no good, its the guys that say what is wrong with fram we worry about. Those guys probably dont change it at 3000 miles either making it worse lol

There is no doubt Synthetic oil is better.

http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_001121.htm

when is the best time to do my first oil change? I am currently at 570 miles.

Also, is synthetic oil recommended? when should I switch to synthetic?

I used Mobil 1 5w20 on my first oil change- about $20 for a jug at Walmart south of the Canada-US border. I plan to change my oil every 5k km (3k miles). I used an AC Delco filter but I'm still looking for a place where I can buy a good filter for less than I paid ($10)

Here you go Kanus http://www.newmoparparts.com/mopar-parts.htm all the spares you could ever need from mopar and at pretty good prices

Mopar oil filters for the patriot at a cost of $5.60 each. :smiley_thumbs_up:

If you are doing mostly highway driving, you probably don't need to change the first oil until 1500+ miles. I changed mine at 750 and it was super clean.

I use 5w30 Mobil1 Synthetic and I am changing every 6000 miles because of hw driving.

Here you go Kanus http://www.newmoparparts.com/mopar-parts.htm all the spares you could ever need from mopar and at pretty good prices

Mopar oil filters for the patriot at a cost of $5.60 each. :smiley_thumbs_up:


I got a wix for 4.41 after taxes here in Tx where taxes are 8.25%

Ok... I have to ask. What's wrong with FRAM Filters? I've had them on all my cars for 21 years and never had any problems. I change my oil every 3000 miles without incident.

Here you go Kanus http://www.newmoparparts.com/mopar-parts.htm all the spares you could ever need from mopar and at pretty good prices

Mopar oil filters for the patriot at a cost of $5.60 each. :smiley_thumbs_up:

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out although shipping to Canada is quite often a killer.

The dealer wanted $12 plus 14% tax for a Mopar filter here in Ontario.

I got a wix for 4.41 after taxes here in Tx where taxes are 8.25%

Where did you buy your Wix from? That's a really good price.

I like your signature. My rugby playing days are over but I gave my share of blood over the years.

we wont shoot you because you know fram is no good, its the guys that say what is wrong with fram we worry about. Those guys probably dont change it at 3000 miles either making it worse lol

So worry about me. What do YOU think is wrong with FRAM filters? I have used them for over 30 years with not one problem. That included street and pure race cars. I have always changed my oil in street cars at 3000 miles even with my last car that said change it at 5000.

Where did you buy your Wix from? That's a really good price.

I like your signature. My rugby playing days are over but I gave my share of blood over the years.

ANGELO FLEET & INDUSTRIAL SUPP
4106 SOUTH CHADBOURNE
SAN ANGELO , TX 76904
325-651-4777

They didnt have any in stock and they ordered me one. Put in the order on monday and had it wednesday. I will probably put in an order for afew just to have some on hand at the house. my dakota takes a 51085 and they run about 5.75

As far as Rugby gpoes i play outside center (sometimes inside/ sometimes wing) and at 5'10" 160 lbs

An autoparts guy once told me that Fram filters do not have a bypass check valve. Meaning that if the filter clogs, oil will not pass through. This could go both ways. Do you want the oil flow to stop or to continue to flow should there be some thing in the oil that would clog the filter. I have a car that the block cracked causing water in the oil (not Patriot). The Fram filter stopped the water from passing through the filter. But, I doubt that oil passed through either. The filter swelled up like a tick about to pop. I now use other brands of filters. SO, Sgtarky what do you think? I change synthetic at 5000 miles.

hello, ive been to other websites where they have cut into oil filters, and the fram just does not have the constuction of other filters out there, would i use one for a 3000 mile oilchange????, yeah in a pinch , but i would also not go over 3100 miles getting it changed out imho,....wix are great filters, so are the purolators, mobil 1's have an amazing pleat area but on the pricey size, and from the last pics i saw IF they have not been changed, the wally world supertechs aren't that bad either, infact id take a supertech over a fram anyday. but i would wait and switch to synth oil until at least 3-5 thousand miles just to be on the safe side to make sure everything seats a-ok. as for what kind of synth oil.....as long as it meets the specs called for the engine it will be ok...everyone has there faves...mobil-1, amsoil, royal purple, castrol....etc etc etc since i dont want to list other websites.. go to google and look for a guy named bob, he has this website about oil..if you want to really step back and look about how some people care about lubrication and care of motors then thats the place. some very knowledgeable people there and the flame wars about which kind of oil and lube are best are classic....but as always just my 2 cents and good luck

Walmart's Supertech is manufactured by Champion Labs - as is Mobil1, K&N, AC Delco DuraGuards (two different types) for USA, Bosch Premium, STP, Ultraguard Gold, Deutch & Luberfiner

Walmart's Supertech (often referred to as SuperTech or Super Tech) is a decent filter (for the price). SuperTech is a 20 micron filter -- that means the Supertech is a good filter for the price -- not a great filter for the price. There is always a tradeoff in price vs. quality.

Wal-Mart buys in such quantities, that they can negotiate good prices with their suppliers. I'm sure Champion was quite pleased to enter into a deal which allows Wal-Mart to sell these filters for $2+/-, when it allows Champion to make enough of these private label oil filters to stock every Wal-Mart in the US.

For under $2, the Supertech filter is very well constructed for all who might be interested. If it were my engine, I would pay more for better protection.

Does anyone know who makes the filters for MOPAR?

The mini-Mopar site has information from an oil filter study that is pretty interesting.
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html (original study)
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html (lists recommended filters and those to avoid).

Although it doesn't say who makes the Mopar filter for the Patriot, it does state that Mopar filters are Frams, Purolators, or Wixes.

Even though most of the Fram filters are on the list of filters to avoid, the Fram Tough Guard apparently isn't too bad and is on the recommended list.

There is no doubt Synthetic oil is better.

http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_001121.htm

The only problem with the Canadian Driver story was the statement that you must change the synthetic at the same intervals as regular dino because of 'acid" build up. That is not true for a good synthetic. They control acidity with a higher initial TBN (Total Base Number) and can therfore go at least twice as far as regular dino which usually offsets the extra cost of synthetics. They also resist shear forces much better than dino which keeps them "intact" longer than dino.

I read through the manual. I follow the recommended service. I use the severe recommended schedule; every 3000 miles. I take it to the dealer. I say, 'here, do the (mileage here) service, fix anything that needs fixing', and I go sit down. I see no need to involve myself further. It's under warranty. I'm doing my part to keep the warranty valid. One point, I do have a dealer that doesn't try to 'pile on' extra service nonsense.
I have 9000 mile services due next week. The 3000 was free. The 6000 cost me $15.00. The 9000 service should be $25.00. No comment on the synthetics. I've tried it on two vehicles. I saw no advantage.

I read through the manual. I follow the recommended service. I use the severe recommended schedule; every 3000 miles. I take it to the dealer. I say, 'here, do the (mileage here) service, fix anything that needs fixing', and I go sit down. I see no need to involve myself further. It's under warranty. I'm doing my part to keep the warranty valid. One point, I do have a dealer that doesn't try to 'pile on' extra service nonsense.
I have 9000 mile services due next week. The 3000 was free. The 6000 cost me $15.00. The 9000 service should be $25.00. No comment on the synthetics. I've tried it on two vehicles. I saw no advantage.

I swear to God I only read your posts cuz I get a huge kick outta that Avatar!

But you saw no advantage to synthetic oil use? Did you go longer between stated changes or stick with the usual 3K times? I was always under the impression that synthetic was the only way to go (if you don't mind the added costs).

I've been running Mobil-1 full synthetic in my 2000 Impala since the 1st or 2nd oil change, primarily because the car has an oil usage monitor that tells you when to change oil, and I was uncomfortable changing dino oil at 5,-6,000 mile intervals. The car has almost 114k miles on it now, and it runs as quietly as it did when new, which was not the case with my previous cars which ran only on dino oil. I also figured by changing oil myself with synthetic, I was spending about what I would for someone else to do it with dino oil, so I wasn't really spending any more money than I could be otherwise.

I've never had an oil related problem with any car, but based on the smooth running of my Impala, as well as my wife's 2003 Accord (which has about 53k miles on it now), I'm sure I'll be switching my Patriot the first chance I get.

I agree with Randoo-N-CJ. I smile everytime I see the big muddy grin. Thank you, luffing.
I have no comment on the oil. Sorry.

Changing the oil for the second time and doing it myself this time! I am going to use Mobil 1 5w30 with a Mopar filter! Any opinion on the OEM filter? I don't want to use from at all!! I don't want to spend $20 on a K&N... The OEM filter is $7.00 at the local dealer! So what is you thoughts?

I believe the Pat takes 5w20

I getting my oil changed next week for the 1st time. I'm going to go with the synthetic

I did get 5w20 sorry! :doh:

I haven't crawled under mine yet to see how hard it'll be to change the oil, but from some photos posted elsewhere on this site it looked like the K&N filter with the 1" nut on the bottom might be advantageous versus trying to reach up in there with a wrench.

I haven't crawled under mine yet to see how hard it'll be to change the oil, but from some photos posted elsewhere on this site it looked like the K&N filter with the 1" nut on the bottom might be advantageous versus trying to reach up in there with a wrench.

The nut on the bottom of the K&N would make it easy but they also cost quite a bit more than other good filters. I removed mine with a strap wrench like this one. A 1" ratchet fits into the end of the bar. It works well as you can use an extension so your ratchet is below the plastic skid guard.

Got the 1st oil change today.
Well....... when I bought the vehicle and drove out of the dealership with it, the dealer put a sticker on the corner of the windshiled saying its due for an oil change in 3 months, or 5,000 kms.

I read the warrantly manual, and it said 10,000. I showed up at the dealership today to get the oil changed, and met the service manager for the 1st time. I told him I bought the car there, and can you advise me when is its 1st oil changed due? He pointed in the book, and said 10,000. of coarse I pointed out that his dealership put a sticker on the window and its say 5,000. He apologized, and after i told him I took the afternoon off to accomplish this, he gave me the oil change for free. (I didnt care about knocking off work early in the least, but he didn't know that).
I thought it was a nice gesture. A $45 dollar Canadian value. He told me that synthetic oil is strictly my choice, has no issues pertaining to warrranty, and the cost of the change would be approx 90 bucks.
There you have it.

I found this http://www.mobil1.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/which_oil/WhichOilOption2.aspx

So, I haven't changed the oil yet should I use 5w30??

I am no expert nor do I know the difference, but i would stick to what the owners manual say and use 5w20. maybe others have better insight though

Just got my first oil change at 1000 miles. Went to local Midas (independently owned and a great shop here in Atlantic City) and switched to Mobil 1 synthetic. Brought my own Mobil 1 oil filter ( it and K&N are considered the best) in case they didn't have one in stock. Filter cost me under $10 US at Advance Auto Parts ( I believe they may only be in New Jersey). I agree that I really only need to do what is required to keep my warranty, but do the math. 3000 miles for dino oil, or 6000 with synthetic, works out to the same price and I get a little better gas mileage, and better start-up protection, and virtually a guarranty never to see sludge. I would change the oil myself and save some money but then it's Chryslers word against mine and still a problem with oil disposal. This way, no messy driveway, no hassle with Chrysler and I'm only out $55 (less a $5 coupon found on the Midas web site) every 6000 miles. Not too shabby

There is no doubt synthetic oil is better. I am still at odds on which weight is best.

From what I have gathered 5w-20 assists with fuel economy, however 5w-30 protects the engine slightly more.

The Mobile website recommends 5w-30 for the 2008 Patriot, eventhough they also sell the 5w-20. (See attachment)

I did change mine I used 5w20 and to tell you the truth I think it has a little better pickup & a little smoother running! The MPG's is still at 22 so we will see if it makes a diff.!

5w20 Pennzoil synthetic for me, changed over at 2,500 miles and am going to be doing every 5,000 from here on out (reminds me, I'm due for the 7,500 this week).

the local oil change place charges $54.95 for a change with synthetic, and considering it's about $30 for the oil and $5 for a filter if I were to change it on my own, might as well let someone else deal with the mess :)

Back to top:
we have a "know it all" here at work who swears to "break in" a vehicle, you should drive it like you stole it. He also says to never use synthetic until after 15000 miles.

I rebuilt an engine before and agree somewhat with this statement. The rebuild manuals describe that different engine parts break in at different RPM's. During the initial break-in of a newly rebuilt engine, the rebuild manuals say to treat the engine gently the first 500 miles; not accelerating hard and in the case of manual 5 speeds don't lug the engine with a load at a low rpm, like going up a steep hill at 45 mph in 5th gear. After 500 miles they recommend running at higher speeds and higher loads, varying the rpms often in your daily driving. This includes avoiding the use of the cruise control during longer trips since this holds the engine to a relatively fixed rpm and prevents others parts from breaking when they should be.
The statement about run it like you stole it translates to don't baby the throttle during break-in. The pistons actually travel slightly higher in the cylinder at higher rpms and need to experience this for the rings reach these high points and seat in there. This is why the car you buy from an old lady who only drove it to church at 35 mph on Sunday is a bad buy. It becomes an oil burner because it never saw a break-in of all the engine parts at the proper time. The upper ring of the pistons now hits a ridge at the top of an unworn cylinder wall when it's run at higher rpms and damages the upper ring and allows oil to pass by.
As for using synthetic oil before the break-in is complete, I would expect that this would prolong the break-in period. This can't be a bad thing IMHO but I'm going to do more searches on this and post any contradictions here.

Hand changed to Amsoil Synthetic 5-30 at 1500.
Going to have garage change again (and rotate tires) at 5k and then every 5k after that with Amsoil I supply.

I love being able to justify moments of flooring it as satisfying break in period.

This is my plan too.

Amsoil although it cost a fair amount more is an excellent sythetic. The 5w-30 is also a better choice. They use this grade for the Patriot gas engines outside North America.

Other than helping North American car makers hit their government CAFE targets I cannot think of any other reason to run 5w-20. BITOG (site below) does not show any protection advantage to using 5w-20 and from what I can tell 5w-30 protects against wear slightly better all other things being equal.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/




Hand changed to Amsoil Synthetic 5-30 at 1500.
Going to have garage change again (and rotate tires) at 5k and then every 5k after that with Amsoil I supply.

I love being able to justify moments of flooring it as satisfying break in period.

I do my oil changed myself with the use of Mobil 1 (5 20w) - Fram Oil Filter PH10060 - Did my first three oil changes at 3,000 miles, now im going back to doing them every 5,000 miles since i drive so much...Barely made my second payment on it and im allready at 10,000 miles on it - also replacing the air filter here shortly with a Fram CA10118 - We get a lot of dust and dirt blowing around out here in Barstow CA...

Question...why would you put expensive synthetic oil into your car and use a cheapy oil filter, and not a Mobil 1 oil filter? I'm not a mechanic but I have read some really bad things about Fram and Mopar oil filters.

On my wife's Mercedes E320 I change the oil there and use a fleece filter, which lets met extend the change interval to 10000 miles. That engine requires 0w40 Mobil 1 fully synthetic. Smooth as silk. Only kicker is I can do about 3.5 patriot oil changes for the same cost as 1 in the Benz. Although it's a 6-cylinder, it takes 9 quarts to change....

Maybe I talk the wifey into swapping that car out with a Diesel laredo :-)

I worked at a quick lube a while back and I can tell you, the whole 3000 mile thing was just their way of being lazy/consistent and to make sure you changed your oil. The guy changing the oil is not going to pull out you manual and see what the interval is supposed to be, he is going to write down 3K for the next change. That is the norm for heavy/dusty/100% NYC driving. Since Chrysler is going to warranty this engine for life, do what the manual says. They are not going to screw themselves by putting something out there that breaks the engine.

For the know it all guy, Will Mobil 1 top of the line go for 25K before needing to be replaced? Yes. Why, once again they are not going to screw themselves. However, read the fine print as it will say follow your engine mfg recomendations ...

But back on topic, will changing it more often hurt? Not the engine, just you wallet. Is synthetic better, does the Sun rise in the east? Unless you purchased a maintence plan with your Pat, there is no mechanical reason to change more often than the Mfg recomends.

On that note, the manual must have a typo. Change the engine air filter at 30k, I will be doing that more often as a cleaner air filter will at least give me beater fuel economy.

will stick with 3000 mile change,not that the oil has taken a beating but with potholes and half buried rocks on the back roads that I live on I like to have the underside checked at 3000.

if you do highway driving everyday for an extended amount of time you oil will be cleaner than someone who only drives in the city. the reason you have to change it just as often is because the addictavies wear out. when you go to walmart and buy the oil thats only $7 for a jug it does not have as many addictaves as the $20 oil. the whole reason you must change is because it is cheaper than putting the addictaves back in it.
______________________________
94 cherokee, off road package

I'll be changing my oil at 3,000 per my dealer's recommendation. I may switch to Mobil1 as I hear it can improve the gas mileage slightly, got about 500 miles to go before I make the change.

my manual states not to change it untill 10000Kms each interval..

GREAT DEAL in Walmart. They are clearing out their Mobil 1 M1-113 filters at $7.97 each & the new Mobil 1 Advance Fuel Economy Full Synthetic oil 5Q Jugs at $22.00. (There is a rebate form at Mobil 1.com, you can get $10.00 Rebate) I bought 6 filters & 2 jugs of oil, have just over 3000km after 1month & 10 days, might do 1st oil change this weekend.

GREAT DEAL in Walmart. They are clearing out their Mobil 1 M1-113 filters at $7.97 each & the new Mobil 1 Advance Fuel Economy Full Synthetic oil 5Q Jugs at $22.00. (There is a rebate form at Mobil 1.com, you can get $10.00 Rebate) I bought 6 filters & 2 jugs of oil, have just over 3000km after 1month & 10 days, might do 1st oil change this weekend.

Did you get 0w20? I didn't think they made that in a 5quart or did you get 0w30?

Did you get 0w20? I didn't think they made that in a 5quart or did you get 0w30?

It's 0W-30, i bought 2 of those as i think the rebate is only for the Advance Fuel Economy, & 1 Jug of regular Mobil 1 5W-20.

It's 0W-30, i bought 2 of those as i think the rebate is only for the Advance Fuel Economy, & 1 Jug of regular Mobil 1 5W-20.

Good price regardless!:smiley_thumbs_up:

Did the 1st oil change today at Roger Jobs @ Bellingham, WA. I brought in the Mobil 1 5W-20 oil & Mobil 1 Oil filter, their labor cost was $12.00. My mileage 3620km.

you can buy a good filter at walmart.

A guy I know has a 2009 Patriot and has had great results with the following:

--1st oil change: around 700-800 miles: regular oil
--2nd oil change: around 4,000 miles: full synthetic
--3rd oil change: around 9,000 miles: 1 quart synthetic, the rest regular oil (same for all subsequent oil changes).

I only have about 1550 miles on mine, so I've only had the first regular oil change.

Anyone else try this or something similar? I'm considering doing the same.

We dont have the same History / Culture of short oil changes in the UK ( & oil is quite expensive over here) My Patriot---Leaves Factory with Manufacturers oil in sump!--1st reccomended service/oil change 9000 miles 2nd reccomended srevice /oil change18,000 miles ( Coming up in 1500miles). Plus we dont very often rotate the wheels /tyres. We seem to preffer to replace our tyres in pairs on the axel that runs out of tread first.

Wow, lots of discussions about oil and filters. Here's my two cents as a 20 year mechanic in both cars, trucks (lorries 4 u Brits), and currently aircraft. In the last automotive course I attended 7 years ago I practiced engine machining. Had a pet project performance 454 ci Chevy 1973 pickup from Texas. I try to keep abreast of the latest in engine developments. I routinely drive maintained vehicles over 200k miles without worrying about them breaking like I do in my new but unproven Patriot. I still have some bugs I'm sure.
Synthetic is superior, no question. Is it right for you? How long are you going to own the vehicle. If until it sees the bone yard invest in it. If you trade in frequently thanks for taking such good care of the Patriot for someone else. LOL 5w-20 is factory recommended in the states. Mobil currently recommends 0w-20 in synthetic also. Good idea in the cold. Could not find any reference for 5w-30 at Mobil's web site for North American GEMA 2.0 or 2.4 2009 motors. Some have said there is a TSB (technical service bulletin) recommending 5w-30 but do not link to it:confused:. So in absence of hard evidence stick to your owners manual until you see the TSB and which motors it applies to. I would go only 3K miles on standard oil, its pretty black and breaking down chemically at that time unless you plan to trade it in then stick to owners manual. For those of you where oil is expensive you have to do your own cost benefit analysis. Never more than 6K miles though on conventional oil, its just not stable enough.
Synthetic is very stable however no engine oil filter on the market can catch micro particles smaller than 10 microns effectively. They would clog very quickly-not enough surface area in the filter. So I stick to 10k miles recommendation on synthetic in order to drain those particles out. A hot engine and a long drain works the best (overnight) great for DIY (do it yourself). The manufacturer does not like 200k miles vehicles getting in the way of new car sales, so they error on the marketing side when it comes to oil changes. The dealer wants your business, so they tell you more often than the manufacturer. On filters you get what you pay for. The more expensive filters have better filtering media ie. synthetics, glass fiber :smiley_thumbs_up: vs. cheap paper :doh: and thus trap smaller particles.
Fram does make some higher end filters that are just fine, so does Purolater. Small parts stores cannot compete with the big box stores and talk trash about products they cannot compete with on prices. On the 2.0L & 2.4L GEMA North American motors the larger MOPAR filter (MO-899) does work. It is the one used on the 09 Dodge Caliber 2.4 turbo and many other Chrysler vehicles. Same design, same threads(M22X1.5), same gasket size, similiar clogged filter bypass range (varies according to manufacturer), just a lot more capacity (at least 2x filtering capacity). The dealer installed it MO-899 (I requested it) on a free oil change offer. The bigger filter is more common thus easier to find and many times costs less. That's multiple wins for you the consumer. Mobil1 is (M1-210) big, (M1-113) small filter; mobil low cost MO4651(big), MO2222 (small). Frams equivalent is a (PH2, TG2, XG2) big, (PH10060, TG10060, XG10060) small; Motorcraft's is a FL 820S (big); Purolater Pure One PL24651 (big), PL12222 (small); Purolater low cost (take away the P). I HAVE PERSONALLY USED THE PH2 FOR THE FIRST OIL CHANGE, FITS GREAT. I would recommend better quality for longer duration changes.
This brings up the first oil change. My advise is don't be a cheap a$$ and error on the side of caution if you plan on keeping your Patriot for the long haul. 1K miles or less first time, then another 2k, then another 3k all on conventional oil. After that your engine should be broken in but it varies with driving styles, towing, etc. Many engine builders still recommend more is better even with newer rings and blocks as it gets out the small metal particles flowing past the filter. Once again do a cost benefit analysis based on your cost and long terms plans for the vehicle. My goal was to arm you with knowledge but you can find most of this info on the web if you take the time. Its a long post but being a aircraft mechanic being thorough is a good thing. Soldier you finally made it. :carryflag:

Wow, lots of discussions about oil and filters. Here's my two cents as a 20 year mechanic in both cars, trucks (lorries 4 u Brits), and currently aircraft. In the last automotive course I attended 7 years ago I practiced engine machining. Had a pet project performance 454 ci Chevy 1973 pickup from Texas. I try to keep abreast of the latest in engine developments. I routinely drive maintained vehicles over 200k miles without worrying about them breaking like I do in my new but unproven Patriot. I still have some bugs I'm sure.
Synthetic is superior, no question. Is it right for you? How long are you going to own the vehicle. If until it sees the bone yard invest in it. If you trade in frequently thanks for taking such good care of the Patriot for someone else. LOL 5w-20 is factory recommended in the states. Mobil currently recommends 0w-20 in synthetic also. Good idea in the cold. Could not find any reference for 5w-30 at Mobil's web site for North American GEMA 2.0 or 2.4 2009 motors. Some have said there is a TSB (technical service bulletin) recommending 5w-30 but do not link to it:confused:. So in absence of hard evidence stick to your owners manual until you see the TSB and which motors it applies to. I would go only 3K miles on standard oil, its pretty black and breaking down chemically at that time unless you plan to trade it in then stick to owners manual. For those of you where oil is expensive you have to do your own cost benefit analysis. Never more than 6K miles though on conventional oil, its just not stable enough.
Synthetic is very stable however no engine oil filter on the market can catch micro particles smaller than 10 microns effectively. They would clog very quickly-not enough surface area in the filter. So I stick to 10k miles recommendation on synthetic in order to drain those particles out. A hot engine and a long drain works the best (overnight) great for DIY (do it yourself). The manufacturer does not like 200k miles vehicles getting in the way of new car sales, so they error on the marketing side when it comes to oil changes. The dealer wants your business, so they tell you more often than the manufacturer. On filters you get what you pay for. The more expensive filters have better filtering media ie. synthetics, glass fiber :smiley_thumbs_up: vs. cheap paper :doh: and thus trap smaller particles.
Fram does make some higher end filters that are just fine, so does Purolater. Small parts stores cannot compete with the big box stores and talk trash about products they cannot compete with on prices. On the 2.0L & 2.4L GEMA North American motors the larger MOPAR filter (MO-899) does work. It is the one used on the 09 Dodge Caliber 2.4 turbo and many other Chrysler vehicles. Same design, same threads(M22X1.5), same gasket size, similiar clogged filter bypass range (varies according to manufacturer), just a lot more capacity (at least 2x filtering capacity). The dealer installed it MO-899 (I requested it) on a free oil change offer. The bigger filter is more common thus easier to find and many times costs less. That's multiple wins for you the consumer. Mobil1 is (M1-210) big, (M1-113) small filter; mobil low cost MO4651(big), MO2222 (small). Frams equivalent is a (PH2, TG2, XG2) big, (PH10060, TG10060, XG10060) small; Motorcraft's is a FL 820S (big); Purolater Pure One PL24651 (big), PL12222 (small); Purolater low cost (take away the P). I HAVE PERSONALLY USED THE PH2 FOR THE FIRST OIL CHANGE, FITS GREAT. I would recommend better quality for longer duration changes.
This brings up the first oil change. My advise is don't be a cheap a$$ and error on the side of caution if you plan on keeping your Patriot for the long haul. 1K miles or less first time, then another 2k, then another 3k all on conventional oil. After that your engine should be broken in but it varies with driving styles, towing, etc. Many engine builders still recommend more is better even with newer rings and blocks as it gets out the small metal particles flowing past the filter. Once again do a cost benefit analysis based on your cost and long terms plans for the vehicle. My goal was to arm you with knowledge but you can find most of this info on the web if you take the time. Its a long post but being a aircraft mechanic being thorough is a good thing. Soldier you finally made it. :carryflag:

Here is the EU TSB saying 5w30 is fine TSB 5w30 (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/CaliberCompassPatriot5w-30TSB.pdf)

Larger filters can hold more dirt, but they may not filter as well as smaller ones....beta ratios need to be looked at.
For example, the larger WIX 51372 (equivalent to the PH2) is rated 2/20=12/25 and the smaller WIX 57060 (equivalent to the PH10060) is rated at 2/75=8/22
This means the larger filter is 50% efficient at removing 12 micron particles, and 95% efficient at removing 25 micron particles
The smaller filter is 50% at 8 microns, and 97.5% efficient at removing 22 micron particles.

No doubt on being able to use 5w-30:

5W-30 TSB (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/CaliberCompassPatriot5w-30TSB.pdf)

Chrysler Letter 5W-30 TSB (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/Chrysler5w30.pdf)

Like many others I am quite sure they push 5W-20 so they can hit their US Government CAFE targets. A shame really...

.

I went to wixfilters.com and used their filter lookup and got part # 57073 for the patriot and part# 57899 for an 09 dodge caliber srt 2.4l turbo. Those numbers you listed do cross from fram:notworthy:, but it is different if you cross from motorcraft. It is best to use a cross reference as a last resort.:doh: It is better to stick with the one recommended per application.:D

No doubt on being able to use 5w-30:

5W-30 TSB (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/CaliberCompassPatriot5w-30TSB.pdf)

Chrysler Letter 5W-30 TSB (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/Chrysler5w30.pdf)

Like many others I am quite sure they push 5W-20 so they can hit their US Government CAFE targets. A shame really...

.


I've been told that Chrysler said use of 5W30 was specified for export models because 5W20 was hard to find outside the US, or North America, and they didn't want people using 10W30 or 10W40.

Export Wranglers are supposed to use 5W20 oil meeting Chrysler MS-6395, but MAY use 5W30 meeting MB 229.31/ MB 229.51, if 5W20 isn't available.
Why would Patriots be different?

I don't think 5W30 is going to hurt anything, at the same time I don't think it's going to be any better than what Chrysler recommends (as opposed to what they allegedly said "can" be used)

Read the letter (see links). Nothing to do with export models. 5w-30 is alright to use, only item is you will not be helping Chrysler hit their US Goverment CAFE target.


I've been told that Chrysler said use of 5W30 was specified for export models because 5W20 was hard to find outside the US, or North America, and they didn't want people using 10W30 or 10W40.

Export Wranglers are supposed to use 5W20 oil meeting Chrysler MS-6395, but MAY use 5W30 meeting MB 229.31/ MB 229.51, if 5W20 isn't available.
Why would Patriots be different?

I don't think 5W30 is going to hurt anything, at the same time I don't think it's going to be any better than what Chrysler recommends (as opposed to what they allegedly said "can" be used)

I read the letter. It doesn't recommend 5W30, just says it can be used.
It also says Chrysler recommends 5W20. The TSB says Export Models.
What I posted about Export Wranglers sounds like the same deal. They prefer 5W20, but if unavailable, use 5W30 meeting the mentioned Benz specs.
Pretty plain.
In reality, not that much difference, especially if you're using a 5W30 on the thin side, which many are. But why not use what's recommended?

I read the letter. It doesn't recommend 5W30, just says it can be used.
It also says Chrysler recommends 5W20. The TSB says Export Models.
What I posted about Export Wranglers sounds like the same deal. They prefer 5W20, but if unavailable, use 5W30 meeting the mentioned Benz specs.
Pretty plain.
In reality, not that much difference, especially if you're using a 5W30 on the thin side, which many are. But why not use what's recommended?

5w30 protects better to higher temps, much wider variety to choose from even in N/A, and usually much cheaper, as any of the sales I see here in Canada are only 5w30 and 10w30.
Chysler HAS to recommend 5w20 as per CAFE agreement, look into it, it's plain as day why the switch to 5w20 came about.

I went to wixfilters.com and used their filter lookup and got part # 57073 for the patriot and part# 57899 for an 09 dodge caliber srt 2.4l turbo. Those numbers you listed do cross from fram:notworthy:, but it is different if you cross from motorcraft. It is best to use a cross reference as a last resort.:doh: It is better to stick with the one recommended per application.:D

I find the WIX 57060 to be a better filter then the recomended 57073 for our Patriots. Longer, and has a better bypass design, as well as made in the USA instead of Mexico.

5w30 protects better to higher temps, much wider variety to choose from even in N/A, and usually much cheaper, as any of the sales I see here in Canada are only 5w30 and 10w30.
Chysler HAS to recommend 5w20 as per CAFE agreement, look into it, it's plain as day why the switch to 5w20 came about.

If Chrysler's only reason to recommend 5W20 is CAFE, why do they recommend it overseas as well?

I don't believe 5W30 protects any better than 5W20, and won't until I see more than opinions.

Wooden Dog - You are poking a bee hive. I went through all this a year ago. I still have a offer on the table $50 to this forum to anyone who can produce any evidence from a scientific source that shows 5w20 increases engine wear at the cost of higher mileage. The only thing that has been brought forth so far is a few opinion pieces.

The 5w30 crowd put forth several points as "proof".

First they bring forth the famous "EPA" letter. I showed that the EPA approves all fluids that go into automobiles. This is part of the clean air act. Basically when a new fluid is produced the manufacturer has to show that using it will not decrease existing MPG ratings on vehicles. Hence the approval. Type EPA 5W30 into google and see what pops up. Here is one for 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30.. http://www.epa.gov/OMS/cert/dearmfr/ccd0407.pdf

Secondly they brought forth the bulletin from Chrysler about export model Pats. The nay sayers combined this with their belief that 5w20 is not available outside north america as more proof that 5w20 is a EPA conspiracy. Unfortunately it was shown at the time that 5w20 is available outside north america, and since that time many of our overseas friends have backed this up. My best guess is that bulletin was put out because the majority of cars in Europe are diesels; which use heavier oils 5w40 approved for gas and diesel engines by the European society of automotive engineers. 5w20 was most likely less common at the time, and the average joe doing their oil change was using 5w40. So the bulliten was put out to say "Hey 5w30 is OK if you cant find 5w20"

Thirdly i put forth test data that explains the FORD 5w20 spec. In short the Ford spec calls for a double life wear test. API rating is only one measure of oil performance. And it is the oldest. Check out this viscosity chart. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html - Note the range. One brands 5w30 can be pretty darn close to anothers 5w20. The individual manufacturer test specs cover more than just oil weight. There is alot more to oil than just viscosity. Amsoil guys know this.

I also listed this Ford bulletin on 5w20.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/FFH/Why5W20Oil05_23_06.asp?News=Rental

You can dig deeper you will find that Ford started using 5w20 in their V10 engines. The blue oval forums talk about how they were having top end scavenging issues which were solved with the better flowing 5w20. You will also note that these engine are used in vehicles that are EXEMPT from EPA MPG requirements.

At the end of the day there has been zero proof put forth that 5w20 increases wear. Will 5w30 hurt your engine? I doubt it. But it has not been proven to be better at anything. 5w20 was introduced by Mobil in 1974 as "Mobil 1". Thats thirty five years of proven results.

Well put. I also note Chrysler's requirement for export vehicles that if 5W20 is unavailable 5W30 MAY be used, as long as it meets MB 229.31/ MB 229.51.
I wonder exactly which 5W30's in the US meet this spec, but for now I'm too lazy to find out.

Not hard to google 5w20 and CAFE... http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=5w20+cafe&meta=&aq=f&oq=
This is from Amsoil:
Question: What are the negative aspects of using a 5w20 oil?

Answer: 5w20 oil has less film and shear strength than a 5w30, 10w30 or a 0w30 motor oil. This can lead to increased engine wear under today's demanding heat and high-stress engine performance conditions.

Do your own research. Make up your own mind. Nobody here is trying to convince you what to use in YOUR engine.

No thats not from Amsoil - That is from a Amsoil dealer web site, which predates Amsoil selling 5w20. So it's an ADD. Matter of fact all the top four are adds from web sites that sell oil. I love it how one even goes as far as to say that you dont have to use 5w20 and are protected under the Magnusson Moss Act. Which BTW is completely false.

I am not trying to convince anyone to use anything. You are trying to convince people to ignore their owners manual.

No thats not from Amsoil - That is from a Amsoil dealer web site, which predates Amsoil selling 5w20. So it's an ADD. Matter of fact all the top four are adds from web sites that sell oil. I love it how one even goes as far as to say that you dont have to use 5w20 and are protected under the Magnusson Moss Act. Which BTW is completely false.

I am not trying to convince anyone to use anything. You are trying to convince people to ignore their owners manual.

You are right...being in the US it appears you are forced to use 5w20 per the owners manual. Europe and Canada have been exempted from this requirement directly from Chrysler, and we have the option of using 5w30 with no warranty issues :)

"5W-30 will offer slightly better engine protection at the expense of a slight increase in fuel consumption all other things being equal."

Waiting for some actual, factual evidence.
Does Europe have CAFE regulations? Because 5W20 is what Chrysler recommends there, as I posted earlier.

Funniest thing is when you google 5w20 CAFE you get tons of forum hits from people ranting about CAFE and as proof they all link to HOMAC's web site with his EPA letter. I think that HOMAC is the center of the urban legend on this one.

It is not a debate, there is no evidence Wooden Dog. And that is after THIRTY FOUR years of 5w20 being on the market. It is grounded purely in some people suspicions of government regulations and distrust in modern science.

Funniest thing is when you google 5w20 CAFE you get tons of forum hits from people ranting about CAFE and as proof they all link to HOMAC's web site with his EPA letter. I think that HOMAC is the center of the urban legend on this one.

It is not a debate, there is no evidence Wooden Dog. And that is after THIRTY FOUR years of 5w20 being on the market. It is grounded purely in some people suspicions of government regulations and distrust in modern science.

Easy tiger.....Mobil 1 made it in the 70's, and nobody bought it or used it or recomended it. It wasn't until 2001 that it started being widely used thanks to Ford and CAFE.
You sole arguement for using 5w20 is "That's what it says in the manual".
All we are saying is 5w30 has been OK'd by Chrysler, and if you understand anything about viscosity, it will protect better to higher temps or under higher load.
5w20 does protect fine, UOA's on BITOG show it does great even in extended drains with most brands. Nothing wrong with using 5w20 at all. But since we actually have a choice, some of us feel better with 5w30, and even better still with synthetic 5w30.
My mom has a 2001 Escape, it's still running fine on 5w20 at 180,000km. I'm not against it at all.....just in MY VEHICLE that I plan on keeping for a decade at least.

I am glad your willing to admit 5w20 "does protect fine" and you "feel better" using it.. That is completely different story from saying that it "increases engine wear".

API rating is the oldest measure of oil performance. It is really just a quick reference. You FEEL 5w30 will protect better. But maybe just maybe modern engines are actually designed with tighter tolerances that need a "thinner" oil that can flow through the engine better, reducing friction and wear.

I could care less if you put maple syrup in your crankcase. Heck maybe your exhaust will come out smelling like pancakes. But dont go around telling people that it is a conspiracy by manufacturers to meet their CAFE targets and increases wear when there is no evidence to prove it.

I am glad your willing to admit 5w20 "does protect fine" and you "feel better" using it.. That is completely different story from saying that it "increases engine wear".

API rating is the oldest measure of oil performance. It is really just a quick reference. You FEEL 5w30 will protect better. But maybe just maybe modern engines are actually designed with tighter tolerances that need a "thinner" oil that can flow through the engine better, reducing friction and wear.

I could care less if you put maple syrup in your crankcase. Heck maybe your exhaust will come out smelling like pancakes. But dont go around telling people that it is a conspiracy by manufacturers to meet their CAFE targets and increases wear when there is no evidence to prove it.

The tighter tolerances is complete bull**** right there, unless you have the "proof" somewhere you can show everyone.....:icon_rolleyes:
I'll enlighten you with a link to a thread on BITOG, hopefully you can wrap your head around it. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1662434&page=1
The jist of it is as follows:
Do people who use 5w-20 run into these issues @ 50F? That's when a 5w-20 is heavier than a 20w-50 @ 100F. They're equal @ about 95F (95f for the 20w-50 and 50F for the 5w-20 -if I used the visc calc correctly)

You've got to put this "tight clearances" thing in perspective. It's the same partial myths about VTEC and whathaveyou. If anyone has issues with a higher visc oil at operating temp ..then they HAVE TO HAVE the exact same issue with a lighter oil at a cooler temp.
Do cold 5w-20 engines experience HLA issues? The oil is allegedly too high for them too

..and all cars running on 5w-20 are operated for 20 minutes and never start @ freezing or below freezing? Do they experience HLA issues? If they don't ..they are seeing conditions that a 20w-50 car can ...in say ..Texas with 75f-100F startup temps.

Let's take "Jake" the retired Crown Vic owner in Frostbite Falls MN. Every day Jake goes to Mom's Apple Pie diner for coffee. It's 6 miles away. He starts his 5w-20 Crown Vic @ -25 and experiences no HLA issues ..even though his 5w-20 is several magnitudes above a 70 weight at startup and, since Mom's is only 6 miles away, only reaches 100F oil temp. He appears to have no HLA issues ..and no one expects him to. Why? Because they say he's using the approved 5w-20 oil.

Now Jake's cousin, Texas Tommy, has the exact same routine, but he lives in Texas, uses 20w-50, and goes to Sally's Spicy Cafe ..same 6miles and he reaches a 150F oil temp. Does he experience HLA issues? Some say that he should ..but he's experiencing the same conditions that Jake is. How can he have these issues if Jake does not?

The relevancy is simple. Anyone who tells you that using one grade will "cause" (fill in the blank) is obviously looking at it from a one dimensional view and not thinking it out to far.

I was kinda staying quite but there is no need for comments like that.

The TSB and letter from Chrysler are legitamate. Or are you saying that they are fake? The guy knows his crap and just won Patriot of the Month.

What are you smokin man!



Funniest thing is when you google 5w20 CAFE you get tons of forum hits from people ranting about CAFE and as proof they all link to HOMAC's web site with his EPA letter. I think that HOMAC is the center of the urban legend on this one.

It is not a debate, there is no evidence Wooden Dog. And that is after THIRTY FOUR years of 5w20 being on the market. It is grounded purely in some people suspicions of government regulations and distrust in modern science.

The tighter tolerances is complete bull**** right there, unless you have the "proof" somewhere you can show everyone.....:icon_rolleyes:
I'll enlighten you with a link to a thread on BITOG, hopefully you can wrap your head around it. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1662434&page=1
The jist of it is as follows:


Hitzy i am glad you posted that link. The whole thread in fact is about someone who wants to use 20W50. It clearly shows that you are doctoring your posts, and you clearly didnt read the whole thread..

Here is how Gary Allan finished his posts, which you conveniently cut out.

"Now (and for the 3rd time - just to assure you that I feel he should) I think that he should use a 5w-20. His cost savings in fuel kinda make it a good thing."

"This is NOT a recommendation for the use of 20w-50 oil. Merely an attempt to get people to adjust their views that may be constructed from "notions". He should use 5w-20."

I am amazed that you would even try to pass this off.


Astro - This has always been about one thing. Showing evidence to back up the claim that "5w20 increases engine wear". Nothing here, or on any other forum has ever been brought forth.

Hitzy i am glad you posted that link. The whole thread in fact is about someone who wants to use 20W50. It clearly shows that you are doctoring your posts, and you clearly didnt read the whole thread..

Here is how Gary Allan finished his posts, which you conveniently cut out.

"Now (and for the 3rd time - just to assure you that I feel he should) I think that he should use a 5w-20. His cost savings in fuel kinda make it a good thing."

"This is NOT a recommendation for the use of 20w-50 oil. Merely an attempt to get people to adjust their views that may be constructed from "notions". He should use 5w-20."

I am amazed that you would even try to pass this off.


Astro - This has always been about one thing. Showing evidence to back up the claim that "5w20 increases engine wear". Nothing here, or on any other forum has ever been brought forth.

No it was posted as a rebuttle of your "tighter tolerances of newer engines requires 5w20" mouth breathing. Gary points out that is absolutely nonsense, and backs it up with facts and language even you could understand.
It's fine though, I made my point, which you now seem to want to avoid.
I'll say it again, 5w20 is fine, given the choice, I will use synthetic 5w30 for all the reasons I posted before.

No it was posted as a rebuttle of your "tighter tolerances of newer engines requires 5w20" mouth breathing. Gary points out that is absolutely nonsense, and backs it up with facts and language even you could understand.
It's fine though, I made my point, which you now seem to want to avoid.
I'll say it again, 5w20 is fine, given the choice, I will use synthetic 5w30 for all the reasons I posted before.

You haven't made any point. You quoted from a forum where a guy wanted to use 20W50, and edited out his comments where he said to use 5w20.

Is mobil part of the "tighter tolerances" conspiracy now to?

https://mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Using_5W-30_Oil_When_5W-20_is_Recommended.aspx


Question:
Protection Provided by 5W-20 Motor Oil
My new Honda I-VTEC 4 Cylinder calls for 5W-20 oil. I've been using Mobil 1 5W-30 in my 2000 Tundra. I was using the 5W-30 in my 2004 Mazda 3 2.0 L even though the manual called for 5W-20. My question: Because of the federal CAFE mandates to improve gas mileage auto makers have gone to lighter oils. Can a 5W-20 synthetic really provide the same amount of wear protection as a 5W-30 synthetic oil? Have machine tolerances become so exact that they really require a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30?
-- Howard Snook, Lowgap, NC
Answer:
Car builders that recommend 5W-20 viscosity oils have tested these oils extensively to ensure that they provide adequate protection of critical engine parts. Our testing has shown that Mobil 1 5W-20 provides excellent wear protection in modern vehicles. Because today’s engines have tighter tolerances – due to improvements in metallurgy and parts-finishing quality, oils with a low film thickness can provide the protection required and at the same time provide fuels economy benefits. Mobil 1 5W-20 is designed for vehicles where a 5W-20 viscosity oil is recommended. Not only does Mobil 1 5W-20 help extend engine life but it also provides exceptional fuel economy as well.

Use whatever you want, i dont care. But please show evidence that 5w20 increases engine wear.

:dead_horse: Wow, is there any machinist out there? Oh, wait I have been to automotive machinist school. Myth: engines have not changed over the years to help meet environmental concerns and government regulations. Reality: Engines are built with tighter tolerances. If the owners manual recommended 5w30, then the EPA would rate the mileage with 5w30 thus reducing the manufactures combined average fuel efficiency (CAFE), this is the target for all their vehicles that fall under the regulation. Not all vehicles do, but not part of this discussion. 5W20 does increase fuel mileage, read the damn container (it is stated as energy conserving 2 in the US). It also flows slightly better at operating temperature. Realistically, I would run 5W30, if you are using conventional oil, in the summer towing. Chrysler even designed an oil cooler for the Patriot to tow over 1K lbs. Why? Oh, because under these conditions 5W20 can't cut unless it is kept cooler. I will be towing my fishing boat which pushes 2K lbs next summer. Your best bet synthetic 0W30 Mobil1 or something equivalent. That's my choice once the engine is broken in on conventional oil. The best of both worlds: great mileage, great wear protection, great thermal stability. I plan on driving :Racing:my Patriot to the bone yard at 300K miles plus or until death do us part:latchon:, so I'm taking care of it. Note you may have an older design motor in an export model as US Patriots are GEMA motors (even better fuel efficiency). Check your engine code. Then recommended oils could change due to looser tolerances (its up to you to research that-it does not apply to me, so I don't care; sorry). Chrysler does have an older 2.4L they still make for some older designs and some exports because they do not have to meet CAFE. I believe they are phasing it out though. They have slightly different displacements a couple of cubic inches or cc's for you metric only guys.

Not sure this helps, but I found these old links that may shed some light onto what the 5w-20 issues are. Although 5w-20 may not increase engine wear, it certainly does not protect as well as 5w-30 all things being equal.

There is also the fact no auto manufacturer uses 5w-20 outside North America. In fact it is very hard to even puchase 5w-20 in Europe and Asia.

Best thing is to educate ones self and make your OWN decision. Everyone has an opinion which is not necessarily fact based.

EPA Letter - CAFE (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/USEPA5W-20.pdf) (North American auto retailers, CAFE and 5w-20)

Letter from Chrysler (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/Chrysler5w-30.pdf) (5w-30 can be used)

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/CAFE/overview.htm) (All about CAFE)

TSB Patriot Europe (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/CaliberCompassPatriot5W-30TSB.pdf) (5w-30 is OK for Jeep Patriot)

Jeep Patriot Parts Manual (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/2008%20Jeep%20Patriot%20Parts.pdf) (Export and North American Engine/Emissions components are the same)

Machinery Lubrication Article (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance) (They hate 5w-20)

BobistheOilGuy.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php) (Nothing wrong with 5w-20, nothing right either)

GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Engine_Manufacturing_Alliance) (The World Engine)

American Petroleum Institute (http://www.api.org/) (Reference Material)

Society of Automotive Engineers (http://www.sae.org/) (Reference Material)

International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (http://www.acea.be/) (Reference Material)

"Although 5w-20 may not increase engine wear"
Completely comfortable with that statement.

"certainly does not protect as well as 5w-30 all things being equal"
Please provide some evidence to support this?

Check out Allpar -

http://www.allpar.com/squads/police-cars/oil.php

"The Ford 4.6 litre V-8 and the Hemi® both operate with 5W-20 weight engine oil. The Dodge Fleet Zone manager personally contacts each maintenance person or chief to explain that because of the Multiple Displacement System, which shuts down cylinders when not needed, it is critical to have the 5W-20 oil with the 5.7 liter Dodge V-8. "

Then check out -

http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2009/techtips.htm

"It's important to know this engine uses 5W-20 engine oil. If the wrong oil is used, fault code P1521 can be set, and the vehicle may show symptoms of a shudder - similar to a torque converter shudder - when the MDS system is activated and deactivated. Other symptoms may include MDS performance codes or engine misfire codes.

Before spending a lot of time with these codes, use the vehicle service history to find out what type of oil is in the engine. Because this is not always possible, the next best thing is to replace the oil (and filter) with 5W-20. This may have to be done twice to fully restore the system back to normal. Oil sludging, restricted oil passages or lifter contamination can also cause problems with this system."

There are actually two TSB's out on that - The MDS system was designed to use 5w-20. Period. Using a heavier oil can cause the lifters to collapse and not pressurize on time. In this case using 5w-30 will lead to increased engine wear. This is fact.

The EPA letter is not evidence of increased wear. I already posted a EPA letter for 5w30. It is only evidence that the EPA must approve all automotive fluids.

The machinery lube piece is a general opinion paper. And their opinion certainly does not hold true with the MDS engine.

Both the Chrysler Canada letter (i wont even question it's authenticity) and the European TSB also do not prove anything about increased wear. And besides several of our European friends on this board have already confirmed that they are using 5w20 overseas.

Your other links dont provide any evidence of increased wear.

Here is something interesting from a Chrysler Certified Mechanic who went to school on the GEMA engine..

http://www.carolinarides.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7463.html

"The camshafts no longer use followers/roller rockers like we're used to seeing on the 420A and 4g63. They don't use pushrods either. The cam lobes ride directly on a "bucket". Similar to cap to a 2L soda bottle, the bucket sits on the top of the valve spring, cup side down. The cam lobe rides directly on the top of the bucket and has a tolerance of 0.008" intake and 0.012" exhaust. If the tolerances are too high then there are 15 different replacement buckets that can be used depending on thickness requirements. The factory uses nearly 50 different buckets but the service parts are limited to only 15. 5w20 oil is the only oil to be used due to the tight clearances of all the moving parts."


This is a Scientific Test of 5w20 and 5w30 -

http://books.google.com/books?id=P9Ps1ypPMEcC&pg=PA211&dq=5w-20+wear&lr=&cd=16#v=onepage&q=5w-20%20wear&f=false

Note that 5W30 oils experienced high levels of thinning than had the 5w20 oils. And i Quote "It is significant that the less viscous oils would, in this case, be expected to give better wear protection then the more viscous ones."

There is also a great thread on a mercury marauder site where he tested 4 different grades of oil in his ride. Ford says only 5w20 can be used. He found that using heaver grades of oil increased the temp of his engine, and only the 5w20 provided the lowest and most stable oil temps.

I could care less what you put in your engine. Use 15W50. I dont care. But if you are going to tell people that the oil the manufacturer recommends is crap, then please provide evidence as to why. You keep making statements of presumed fact, "does not protect as well" and "increases engine wear", yet you have no evidence to back it up.

It is important to remember the differences are small all things being equal. However the motivation to move to 5w-20 is another question.


http://www.allpar.com/squads/police-cars/oil.php

"it is critical to have the 5W-20 oil with the 5.7 liter Dodge V-8. "


First thing, the Jeep Patriot does not use a Hemi or a V8. Secondly this is coming from the Automobile Manufacturer that signed the CAFE agreement with the EPA. They have to (by law) recommend 5w-20 eventhough it is not the best weight oil to use.



http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2009/techtips.htm
Before spending a lot of time with these codes, use the vehicle service history to find out what type of oil is in the engine. Because this is not always possible, the next best thing is to replace the oil (and filter) with 5W-20. This may have to be done twice to fully restore the system back to normal. Oil sludging, restricted oil passages or lifter contamination can also cause problems with this system."

This is aweful mis-information. Oil sludging has nothing to do with the oil weight per se. Sludge is caused by:


Severe service driving with improper drain intervals
Mechanical malfunctions
Inadequate engine maintenance


One of the best ways to avoid sludge is using a synthetic oil regardless of the weight.




The EPA letter is not evidence of increased wear. I already posted a EPA letter for 5w30. It is only evidence that the EPA must approve all automotive fluids.

You are correct here. No evidence of increased wear. It is evidence that 5w-20 is recommended in North America because of CAFE and the EPA. It would be nice if the use of 5w-20 was based on performance instead of politics.




The machinery lube piece is a general opinion paper. And their opinion certainly does not hold true with the MDS engine.

Opinion perhaps, I am not willing to take the chance.




Both the Chrysler Canada letter (i wont even question it's authenticity) and the European TSB also do not prove anything about increased wear. And besides several of our European friends on this board have already confirmed that they are using 5w20 overseas.

Glad you agree the documents are authentic. All you would have to do is call Chrysler yourself to confirm. You are incorrect regarding the last claim.

5w-20 is not widely available in Europe or Asia. At best you can order it, you may be lucky to find it at a dealer. In fact, I recall some posts where someone went into several auto parts stores in Germany and could not find it anywhere!

The question is, why can't 5w-20 be found outside North America? Why is it not recommended by European auto makers?




http://www.carolinarides.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7463.html

"5w20 oil is the only oil to be used due to the tight clearances of all the moving parts."

Again, gross mis-information. 5w is 5w is 5w. At start-up 5w-20 is the same weight at 5w-30 all other things being equal. The "tight clearance" therory goes right out the window.




http://books.google.com/books?id=P9Ps1ypPMEcC&pg=PA211&dq=5w-20+wear&lr=&cd=16#v=onepage&q=5w-20%20wear&f=false

Note that 5W30 oils experienced high levels of thinning than had the 5w20 oils. And i Quote "It is significant that the less viscous oils would, in this case, be expected to give better wear protection then the more viscous ones."

I cannot open this book to see what conext this was written under. If the 5w-30 oil tested experienced high levels of thinning, that would speak to the quality of that oil. Read closely "in this case", details, details, details.

"First thing, the Jeep Patriot does not use a Hemi or a V8."

Point shows that engines are designed with specific oil specifications. The MDS system will not work properly with heaver oils. See the chrysler TSB's.

"Secondly this is coming from the Automobile Manufacturer that signed the CAFE agreement with the EPA. They have to (by law) recommend 5w-20 eventhough it is not the best weight oil to use."

I get it, you dont trust the auto manufacturers.

Provide evidence to support your contention that manufacturers are mandated by law to recommend 5w-20.

"This is aweful mis-information. Oil sludging has nothing to do with the oil weight per se. Sludge is caused by:

* Severe service driving with improper drain intervals
* Mechanical malfunctions
* Inadequate engine maintenance


One of the best ways to avoid sludge is using a synthetic oil regardless of the weight."

Nobody is trying to show a connection between oil weight and sludge. The person writing simply stated that Oil Sludging can cause problems with the system. He never stated that Sludging is a result of improper weight.

"You are correct here. No evidence of increased wear. It is evidence that 5w-20 is recommended in North America because of CAFE and the EPA. It would be nice if the use of 5w-20 was based on performance instead of politics."

I have already shown how all automotive fluids have to be tested to show that they will not decrease current CAFE. 5w-30, 10w-30, ect ect.. All must be approved for use. I have provided these docs already.

Please provide some evidence that 5w-20 results in reduced performance as you are trying to elude to in your sentence.

"Opinion perhaps, I am not willing to take the chance."

And you are entitled to that. Put maple syrup in your engine, i dont care.

"Glad you agree the documents are authentic. All you would have to do is call Chrysler yourself to confirm. You are incorrect regarding the last claim.

5w-20 is not widely available in Europe or Asia. At best you can order it, you may be lucky to find it at a dealer. In fact, I recall some posts where someone went into several auto parts stores in Germany and could not find it anywhere!

The question is, why can't 5w-20 be found outside North America? Why is it not recommended by European auto makers? "

I did call Chrysler - they said 5w-20 is the oil specified for use in your vehicle. I have also read posts on this board where they are using 5w-20.

They sell it

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-651-5w-20.aspx

Mobil 1 UK also has it.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Search/Search.aspx?output=xml_no_dtd&client=default_frontend&BCL=/PDSSearch/Imports&css=/imports/ledr_main&searchNow=Submit&getfields=description&num=50&filter=0&entqr=1&ie=utf-8&chooseLanguage=en&site=ledr&la=en&as_q=inurl:UK%20inurl:MOBIL%20inurl:Lubes%20inurl: PDS&partialfields=country:UK.category:Automotive.categ ory:Engine.category:Oils&oe=UTF-8

This is a mute point entirely since it is also not evidence of "increased wear" using 5w-20.

"Again, gross mis-information. 5w is 5w is 5w. At start-up 5w-20 is the same weight at 5w-30 all other things being equal. The "tight clearance" therory goes right out the window."

Nobody said anything about start-up weight. If you read how the MDS system works it requires a specific range of oil pressure. Using 5w-30 in that engine will cause problems.. Well that is what the manufacturer says, and you dont believe the manufacturer TSB's.. Or Allpar.. Or a Chrysler mechanic.. Not much else i can do with that.

"I cannot open this book to see what conext this was written under. If the 5w-30 oil tested experienced high levels of thinning, that would speak to the quality of that oil. Read closely "in this case", details, details, details. "

That was an example of a scientific paper that contains evidence. Please provide some evidence that 5w-20 increases engine wear.

Point shows that engines are designed with specific oil specifications. The MDS system will not work properly with heaver oils. See the chrysler TSB's.

Yes, and Chrysler has confirmed 5w-20 and 5w-30 are both acceptable to use. Your point is?



I get it, you dont trust the auto manufacturers.

When they ink a deal with the EPA surrounding CAFE and muck around with oil weight you bet I do not trust them. For shame.



Provide evidence to support your contention that manufacturers are mandated by law to recommend 5w-20.

That is easy: EPA Letter - CAFE (http://www.telusplanet.net/~homac/USEPA5W-20.pdf) You will not see anything about it being better or offering more protection, only that if they are going to use it to acheive their CAFE target better stamp 5w-20 all over the place. Nothing like getting caught red handed.



Nobody is trying to show a connection between oil weight and sludge. The person writing simply stated that Oil Sludging can cause problems with the system. He never stated that Sludging is a result of improper weight.[/B]

OK, your point in posting this is?



I have already shown how all automotive fluids have to be tested to show that they will not decrease current CAFE. 5w-30, 10w-30, ect ect.. All must be approved for use. I have provided these docs already. Please provide some evidence that 5w-20 results in reduced performance as you are trying to elude to in your sentence.

No you have not shown that. All things being equal 5w-20 does not protect as well as 5w-30 and it was implemented for a very slight fuel economy gain in the short term. None of your documents state otherwise.



I did call Chrysler - they said 5w-20 is the oil specified for use in your vehicle. I have also read posts on this board where they are using 5w-20.

They also advise you can use 5w-30 too. Of course there is that legality surrounding the EPA and CAFE so unfortunately they cannot be up front and put that in the manual can then they. Some get that, some do not.



They sell it
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-651-5w-20.aspx

Mobil 1 UK also has it.
http://www.exxonmobil.com/Search/Search.aspx?output=xml_no_dtd&client=default_frontend&BCL=/PDSSearch/Imports&css=/imports/ledr_main&searchNow=Submit&getfields=description&num=50&filter=0&entqr=1&ie=utf-8&chooseLanguage=en&site=ledr&la=en&as_q=inurl:UK%20inurl:MOBIL%20inurl:Lubes%20inurl: PDS&partialfields=country:UK.category:Automotive.categ ory:Engine.category:Oils&oe=UTF-8

Too bad when you go to purchase it you cannot find it. Seriously there are folks from outside the US on the forum. Perhaps things have changed, however 5w-20 is very hard to find outside North America. Wonder why?



Nobody said anything about start-up weight. If you read how the MDS system works it requires a specific range of oil pressure. Using 5w-30 in that engine will cause problems.. Well that is what the manufacturer says, and you dont believe the manufacturer TSB's.. Or Allpar.. Or a Chrysler mechanic.. Not much else i can do with that.

Too bad the MDS system found in the Hemi is not found in the Patriot. We are following direction from Chrysler when using 5w-30. The TSB and Letter tell the tale. Just not buying into the 5w-20 sell job.



That was an example of a scientific paper that contains evidence. Please provide some evidence that 5w-20 increases engine wear.
Again, all things being equal 5w-20 will not protect as well as 5w-30. Not sure what else you are looking for at this point.

One thing that is quite clear, someone is arguing from a point of having to be right. Sounds like a lawyer having to win his case, not interested in the best advice on car maintenance. Clearly picks and chooses points and arguments that make his original argument the right one. No possibility of acknowledging someone else taught him something. Oh in case you did not know 15W30 diesel engine truck oil is much different than 10w30 car oil but I suspect you did and conveniently ignored that FACT! Maybe you did not and then should withdraw from giving advice on topics your not qualified to give opinions on. And Michigan is a little on the cold side probably why the shop was using 15w30 vs. 15w40 in the winter (think outside the box and you might have noticed that). Both numbers matter the first one is for start up (diesel trucks are kept running in extreme cold or garaged) and the second number is for operating oil temp. (varies with ambient (outside) air temp). What the he double hockey sticks (LL) does that comparison have to do with the current argument (different engines, different types and grades of oils)???? Also you have shown a knack for using search engines but not a proper understanding of what your search yields. You reference a google book page, but fail to go back and read that the 5w20 oils are experimental oils containing MoS2 (molybdenum disulphide). Its real neat stuff but not recommended by Chrysler and not the oil your getting at Wally World. Are you doing your homework? If you still think 5w20 offers the protection as 5w30 under severe driving conditions you have not done your homework. In the cold I would recommend 5w20 because your engine never reaches the operating temps it does in the heat of summer and flows better in the winter reaching critical engine parts. Things that are different are not the same (a little common sense logic). If oil behaved the same regardless of temperature why are their charts that manufactures used to put out (some still are) recommending different grades based on ambient temperatures. Why do they not on certain vehicles? Read the EPA letter Hintz linked to previously. They lose the right to use 5w20 in their EPA test engine if they even hint at another grade. So go ahead let government bureaucrats dictate which oil you should use based on your operating environment. Are you a tree hugger with alternative notions you are afraid to be upfront about? I'm wondering? Seems a logical reason for your advice. Oh by the way the cost of building new cars and energy used greatly exceeds the savings of taking proper care of your vehicle. Corporations try to follow government regulations (to avoid fines and bad public relations) no matter how poorly they were thought out. Looking green is more important than being green (symbolism). Most light trucks running 5w20 now have an oil cooler or recommend one for towing of any significance. Why? Once again as oil operating temperatures increase a higher viscosity oil is required. Oil coolers lower operating temps. Its an option on the Patriot for towing. Do you get it yet. Hintz clearly offered a great deal of links with great information, yet you keep asking for proof.:confused:

Still haven't seen anyone directly address my earlier points, except when Homac said exports weren't mentioned, when in fact thy are right at the top of the TSB.

"I've been told that Chrysler said use of 5W30 was specified for export models because 5W20 was hard to find outside the US, or North America, and they didn't want people using 10W30 or 10W40.

Export Wranglers are supposed to use 5W20 oil meeting Chrysler MS-6395, but MAY use 5W30 meeting MB 229.31/ MB 229.51, if 5W20 isn't available.
Why would Patriots be different?

I don't think 5W30 is going to hurt anything, at the same time I don't think it's going to be any better than what Chrysler recommends (as opposed to what they allegedly said "can" be used)"

"I read the letter. It doesn't recommend 5W30, just says it can be used.
It also says Chrysler recommends 5W20. The TSB says Export Models.
What I posted about Export Wranglers sounds like the same deal. They prefer 5W20, but if unavailable, use 5W30 meeting the mentioned Benz specs.
Pretty plain.
In reality, not that much difference, especially if you're using a 5W30 on the thin side, which many are. But why not use what's recommended?"

"If Chrysler's only reason to recommend 5W20 is CAFE, why do they recommend it overseas as well?"

Still haven't seen anyone directly address my earlier points, except when Homac said exports weren't mentioned, when in fact thy are right at the top of the TSB.
Homac posted the TSB. In fact the TSB is regarding export models and their use of 5w-30. Perhaps re-read his post or are we missing something.



"I've been told that Chrysler said use of 5W30 was specified for export models because 5W20 was hard to find outside the US, or North America, and they didn't want people using 10W30 or 10W40.
Nope. If 5W-20 is the 'better' oil why is it so hard to find outside North America? Show us some proof for the above comment and we can all take a look.



Export Wranglers are supposed to use 5W20 oil meeting Chrysler MS-6395, but MAY use 5W30 meeting MB 229.31/ MB 229.51, if 5W20 isn't available. Why would Patriots be different?
Chrysler is not allowed to recommend 5W-30 because they signed a deal with the US Government/EPA saying they would specify 5W-20. Read the EPA letter it specifically outlays what the car maker needs to do. No where does it say 5W-20 is to be used because it is better, or mechanically necessary. Hence why so many are not buying into all this and using 5W-30.



I don't think 5W30 is going to hurt anything, at the same time I don't think it's going to be any better than what Chrysler recommends (as opposed to what they allegedly said "can" be used)"
And I do not believe 5W-20 will necessarily hurt anything eventhough it is only used in North America and no where else in the world.



"I read the letter. It doesn't recommend 5W30, just says it can be used.
It also says Chrysler recommends 5W20. The TSB says Export Models.
What I posted about Export Wranglers sounds like the same deal. They prefer 5W20, but if unavailable, use 5W30 meeting the mentioned Benz specs.
Pretty plain.
In reality, not that much difference, especially if you're using a 5W30 on the thin side, which many are. But why not use what's recommended?"
5W-30 on the thin side? Same response as above. The car makers did some deal with the EPA so they could use this trick to achieve their CAFE targets. Now if they had done this because it offers more protection, then we would be onto something.



"If Chrysler's only reason to recommend 5W20 is CAFE, why do they recommend it overseas as well?"
They can recommend it all they want, however European and Asian car retailers along with their respective Governments are not playing these tricks.

Scroll down until you see EXPORT and read carefully.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9496253/Jeep-JK-2008-Wrangler-Fluids

As for the TSB, maybe you should re-read and pay attention. It is for exports, yes, and it says 5W20 is recommended, use 5W30 IF 5W20 is not available.,
which is what my posted link says for export Wranglers, and it specifies the Mercedes Benz specs for the 5W30? Why?

Scroll down until you see EXPORT and read carefully.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9496253/Jeep-JK-2008-Wrangler-Fluids

As for the TSB, maybe you should re-read and pay attention. It is for exports, yes, and it says 5W20 is recommended, use 5W30 IF 5W20 is not available.,
which is what my posted link says for export Wranglers, and it specifies the Mercedes Benz specs for the 5W30? Why?

Probably becasue at that time. Chrysler was OWNED by Diamler......
If 5w20 was soo much better, why would Chrysler not at least supply their overseas dealers with it? It would be readily available, and they would have a monopoly with it. Instead they chose to add a page to the manual saying 5w30 is OK.
So EU is exempt from using 5w20 exclusively, so is Canada.....now why would that be? Maybe because CAFE and EPA are USA regulations?????

Show me some actual evidence that 5W20 does not protect as well as 5W30. Show me evidence that 5W30 doesn't protect as well as 5W40 or 10W40, for that matter. I'll wait.

In regards to my comment about a 'thin" 5W30, what I mean is this: Not all brands of oil have the exact same viscosity in a given viscosity range. (And another thing, all 5W30's can be considered "thin". There was a time when everybody screamed about going to 10W30 from 10W40 too.)

Most 5W30's are on the thin side of the 30 weight spectrum, and if they shear, you're running a 20...

Clue: there are other factors than viscosity when thinking about how good an oil is.
If thicker oils protect better across the board, why aren't you using a 5W40?

Show me some actual evidence that 5W20 does not protect as well as 5W30. Show me evidence that 5W30 doesn't protect as well as 5W40 or 10W40, for that matter. I'll wait.

In regards to my comment about a 'thin" 5W30, what I mean is this: Not all brands of oil have the exact same viscosity in a given viscosity range. (And another thing, all 5W30's can be considered "thin". There was a time when everybody screamed about going to 10W30 from 10W40 too.)

Most 5W30's are on the thin side of the 30 weight spectrum, and if they shear, you're running a 20...

Clue: there are other factors than viscosity when thinking about how good an oil is.
If thicker oils protect better across the board, why aren't you using a 5W40?

AT HIGHER TEMPS OR UNDER LOAD, THICKER OIL PROTECTS BETTER....there are several links already posted, try reading them.
At normal operating temps 5w20 will be fine in the Patriot, under load like towing 2000lbs even with the dinky oil cooler, I would run a synthetic 5w30 for better protection. I sit in stop and go traffic in 35 celcius heat in the summer, if for some odd reason it overheated, the synthetic 5w30 will give a little more time before damage occurs. I don't have an oil cooler, but I have no worries about towing 1600lbs with 5w30 synthetic in the engine, and do it frequently.
A 40 weight oil would be fine as well, but FE would start to suffer. That's the comprimise with thicker oils, hit on FE. A 10w30 HDEO would be great too in some parts of the country and probably wouldn't affect FE.
You can check on here as well as the net, but several of us saw improved FE with synthetic 5w30 when we switched from 5w20.

Thanks, but I've read many threads and links and still see no proof of anything, except the people seem to think opinion equals evidence. I'm not, by the way, a newbie, and I know a little bit about oil. Even better, I know people who know a lot about oil. Show me some measurements of actual engine wear, show me some engines that have run 5W20 their entire lives and suffered excess engine wear and damage that can be definitively traced to 5W20 oil.
Saying something over and over and pointing to opinions and anecdotes is not the same as empirical proof.

Thanks, but I've read many threads and links and still see no proof of anything, except the people seem to think opinion equals evidence. I'm not, by the way, a newbie, and I know a little bit about oil. Even better, I know people who know a lot about oil. Show me some measurements of actual engine wear, show me some engines that have run 5W20 their entire lives and suffered excess engine wear and damage that can be definitively traced to 5W20 oil.
Saying something over and over and pointing to opinions and anecdotes is not the same as empirical proof.

Tow 2000lbs with your 5w20 with no oil cooler and get back to us.....:doh:
It was said over and over, under normal operating conditions, 5w20 will protect just fine. It's under the abnormal conditions I would not want 5w20 in my engine.
It's common knowledge that thicker oil protects to higher temps and under heavier load....if you don't understand that, I can't help you.
Maybe a picture for air cooled B&S engines will help you.
http://vanguardengines.myfaqcenter.com/Resources/BriggsFAQs/shared/pics/Faqs/oil_chart.jpg

See? That's exactly the kind of bull**** non-answer that gets you nowhere.
You obviously have no proof of anything, and so rely on attempted smartassery.
Get back to me when you have some actual, verifiable data.

Tow 2000lbs with your 5w20 with no oil cooler and get back to us.....:doh:
It was said over and over, under normal operating conditions, 5w20 will protect just fine. It's under the abnormal conditions I would not want 5w20 in my engine.
It's common knowledge that thicker oil protects to higher temps and under heavier load....if you don't understand that, I can't help you.
Maybe a picture for air cooled B&S engines will help you.
http://vanguardengines.myfaqcenter.com/Resources/BriggsFAQs/shared/pics/Faqs/oil_chart.jpg

If it's common knowledge, you should be able to find some real numbers somewhere, and if you do, I'll look at them.

Seriously? You're going to post something from Yahoo? Really?
Like I said, show me some facts, some numbers, some wear measurements.
5W20 oils are better "built" than 5W30's in general, and are more shear stable.
As I said, show me some actual proof that 5W30 is better for this engine, and I'll believe you. But until I see the numbers, I don't.

Saying 5w-20 oils are "better built" than 5w-30 oils makes no sense. The weight of the oil has nothing to do with its other properties.

All I can recommend to you is to do some reading. Bob is the Oil Guy (BITOG) would be a good place to start on the net.

Go do some reading and prove it to yourself. Compare 5w-30 Pennzoil Platinum to your run of the mill 5w-20 and you will find out what I am talking about. Any UOA (Used Oil Analysis) on BITOG will show you.



Seriously? You're going to post something from Yahoo? Really?
Like I said, show me some facts, some numbers, some wear measurements.
5W20 oils are better "built" than 5W30's in general, and are more shear stable.
As I said, show me some actual proof that 5W30 is better for this engine, and I'll believe you. But until I see the numbers, I don't.

Funny, I've been a member of BITOG for 7 years....
Maybe you need to do some research yourself. You might start with Communicating with people like Terry Dyson.
Pennzoil Pure Platinum is a fine oil, in any viscosity, but if you want to look at UOA's why don't you look at the 5W20's and point to some bad ones? Why would you need to compare PP 5W30 to a "run of the mill" 5W20? Why not compare a run of the mill 5W20 to a run of the mill 5W30? Or PP 5W20 to PP 5W30? You are aware of the fact, of course, that PP tends to be one of the thinner oils in all weights, aren't you?
There's a lot more to an oil than it's viscosity.
By the way, UOA's aren't going to tell you how much your engine is or is not wearing...but if you read BITOG much at all, you already know this, right?

cool it guys... you don't want a fight over oil to get you a hiatus from the forum for a few days do you?

cool it guys... you don't want a fight over oil to get you a hiatus from the forum for a few days do you?

Thank you Joe... I too have read the past few days worth of debates and if all parties don't chill, I will close the thread and issue several one week bans from the forum. Everyone posting here may want to go re-read the forum rules as this is leading to personal attacks and we, the management, won't like that!

So again, enough... Get back to discussing oil and not flaming one another.

Merry Christmas!

HA - I took a holiday break only to find it goes on and on.

"Saying something over and over and pointing to opinions and anecdotes is not the same as empirical proof."

Wooden Dog - Your Spot On. There is no proof, the longer this goes on the more evident that becomes.

My guess is that within the next 10 or 20 years the API scale will be tossed as high performance oils reach "0".

:doh:
OH! My aching head!! I just read this entire thread.

(and Im still unsure lol!!!) :doh:

I have less than 500 miles on my Patriot. I want to keep this vehicle at least 6 years (hopefully longer) and want to do what's best without overkill. I want to use synthetic oil.

Now to just figure out when to do the first oil change, when to go to synthetic and which oil and filter to use.

I feel like Im making a simple thing way overcomplicated. Then again, I am a woman (but I can change my own oil) and maybe its a woman thing?

I need a drink :friday: It's gotta be 5 o'clock somewhere!!!

:doh:
OH! My aching head!! I just read this entire thread.

(and Im still unsure lol!!!) :doh:

I have less than 500 miles on my Patriot. I want to keep this vehicle at least 6 years (hopefully longer) and want to do what's best without overkill. I want to use synthetic oil.

Now to just figure out when to do the first oil change, when to go to synthetic and which oil and filter to use.

I feel like Im making a simple thing way overcomplicated. Then again, I am a woman (but I can change my own oil) and maybe its a woman thing?

I need a drink :friday: It's gotta be 5 o'clock somewhere!!!

I wanted orange but couldn't find one to look at.

Oil: My solution was simple. At 2500 miles I replaced the junk break-in oil with synthetic. At 5000 I replaced the oil again, last week. I plan to replace the oil every 5000. This will be really easy to monitor with just the odometer.

I want to replace the manual transmission oil too because there should be heavy contamination from break-in.

I ditched the factory oil at 600 and put in 5w20 Mopar oil and filter (free from dealer), at 3600 I went to 5w20 Mobil1 full synthetic with Mopar filter. Now I'm at 6400 and plan change it in about 2 weeks, Im going to use Mobil1 again, with a better filter this time. Oil is starting to turn a little dark, which is dissappointing. I suspect the filter. The oil I am happy with, from a quick and dirty, seat-of-the pants, old school gut analysis. The 2.4 rolled over nicely all winter, including in -5 temps, Respectable gas mileage all winter, excellant gas mileage in warm weather. I'll leave the debate about the relative merits of viscosity and shear resistance to the "experts". If Chrysler says 5w20, and they are the ones signing the service vouchers on the Lifetime Warranty, then I'll use 5w20. I'll even use a high-quality 5w20, cause thats way I roll.

I ditched the factory oil at 600 and put in 5w20 Mopar oil and filter (free from dealer), at 3600 I went to 5w20 Mobil1 full synthetic with Mopar filter. Now I'm at 6400 and plan change it in about 2 weeks, Im going to use Mobil1 again, with a better filter this time. Oil is starting to turn a little dark, which is dissappointing. I suspect the filter. The oil I am happy with, from a quick and dirty, seat-of-the pants, old school gut analysis. The 2.4 rolled over nicely all winter, including in -5 temps, Respectable gas mileage all winter, excellant gas mileage in warm weather. I'll leave the debate about the relative merits of viscosity and shear resistance to the "experts". If Chrysler says 5w20, and they are the ones signing the service vouchers on the Lifetime Warranty, then I'll use 5w20. I'll even use a high-quality 5w20, cause thats way I roll.

Mopar filters are really good, appear to be rebadged Purolator Pure One's, not going to find anything better for the money. Mobil 1, Amsoil, Royal Purple are a step up, but also quite pricey.
Red Line makes the best 5w20 out there if you want to give it a run, but it's a bit pricey. Mobil 1 oil turning black really doesn't mean anything though, it's still protecting at 5000 miles, and would easily go double that in most climates.