While I was showing a co-worker my 2008 4X4 5sp FD1 Patriot earlier, he commented on how 'hefty' the shifter looked. He had the drivers door opened while he leaned in to admire the interior.

The next thing that he did caught me completely off guard - while he was still leaning in admiring the interior, he grabbed the shifter and started rapidly rowing through all the gears - without depressing the clutch pedal. We were on level ground, engine off, no key in the ignition with the parking brake on.

He stated that shifting a manual transmission without the clutch being depressed is ok while a car is turned off - because the engine is disconnected from the transmission.

I always believed that whenever a manual tranny is shifted - that the clutch pedal should always be depressed - whether the car is on or off.

Who's correct here? My co-worker or me?

If anyone can share whatever insight they have on this, I'd greatly appreciate it!

While I was showing a co-worker my 2008 4X4 5sp FD1 Patriot earlier, he commented on how 'hefty' the shifter looked. He had the drivers door opened while he leaned in to admire the interior.

The next thing that he did caught me completely off guard - while he was still leaning in admiring the interior, he grabbed the shifter and started rapidly rowing through all the gears - without depressing the clutch pedal. We were on level ground, engine off, no key in the ignition with the parking brake on.

He stated that shifting a manual transmission without the clutch being depressed is ok while a car is turned off - because the engine is disconnected from the transmission.

I always believed that whenever a manual tranny is shifted - that the clutch pedal should always be depressed - whether the car is on or off.

Who's correct here? My co-worker or me?

If anyone can share whatever insight they have on this, I'd greatly appreciate it!

never heard of doing it with engine off,
but have done it on my neon when the rpms are up there,
its called dry shifting,
wouldnt recomend it too often,
but did it quite a few times on my neon,
and after 200K miles still on original clutch

You won't cause any problems moving the gear shift when the car is off. I do it all the time in my own car when I work on it, like the radio so I just put it into 2nd or something to get it out of the way.

While I was showing a co-worker my 2008 4X4 5sp FD1 Patriot earlier, he commented on how 'hefty' the shifter looked. He had the drivers door opened while he leaned in to admire the interior.

The next thing that he did caught me completely off guard - while he was still leaning in admiring the interior, he grabbed the shifter and started rapidly rowing through all the gears - without depressing the clutch pedal. We were on level ground, engine off, no key in the ignition with the parking brake on.

He stated that shifting a manual transmission without the clutch being depressed is ok while a car is turned off - because the engine is disconnected from the transmission.

I always believed that whenever a manual tranny is shifted - that the clutch pedal should always be depressed - whether the car is on or off.

Who's correct here? My co-worker or me?

If anyone can share whatever insight they have on this, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Playing with the shifter with the engine off and no clutch will not damage the transmission, but don't force the shifter if there is resistance.

Your co-worker is incorrect about the clutch being disconnected when the engine is off. It's still engaged to the engine if the pedal is not pushed in, running or not.

FYI:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

I will, however, point out to you is that it is your vehicle, not your co-worker's. He should respect how you want it treated. Consider it house rules that you want the clutch depressed before touching the shifter.

With the gears not spinning, it doesn't do any damage, but you can't get a feel for the smoothness by doing that, or even the throw.

You can shift without a clutch while you are in motion. Class B and A truckdrivers do it all the time. You have to really know what you are doing though or you can do major damage. You have to have your timing down and a "feel" for the synchronizers. They have to do their job and you have to be solid with your ranges and your acellorator use. I've alwasy known it as "speed shifting" because you have to have a real good ear and feel to shift at the correct speed/rpm. Get outside the range and you will just be making metal chips.

As a point of history many oldtime truckers will tell you that this was necessary back in the days of the first heavy-duty transmissions. it went along with something called double-clutching. Many truckers will tell you it was to spin oil onto the the upper gears, but that wasn't true. The real issue was that the synchronizers weren't very good and the second "spin" helped line up the gears.

As a point of history many oldtime truckers will tell you that this was necessary back in the days of the first heavy-duty transmissions. it went along with something called double-clutching. Many truckers will tell you it was to spin oil onto the the upper gears, but that wasn't true. The real issue was that the synchronizers weren't very good and the second "spin" helped line up the gears.

Double clutching is necessary because heavy duty truck transmissions do not have synchronizers.

Double clutching is necessary because heavy duty truck transmissions do not have synchronizers.

Had to do that on my 1954 M38A1 Jeep

Thanks for the insight everyone! The transmission animations links were very helpful as well Brett. :)

I will, however, point out to you is that it is your vehicle, not your co-worker's. He should respect how you want it treated. Consider it house rules that you want the clutch depressed before touching the shifter.

Yeah Really who just hops in a new car and starts getting there "Tommy Toggle" on!!! That's ridiculous.

You double clucth it to "match" the engine speed to the tranny speed. No Syncros...the only way to not get a grind in gears.

Class B and A truckdrivers do it all the time. You have to really know what you are doing though or you can do major damage. You have to have your timing down and a "feel" for the synchronizers.

My father in law (who criss-crossed North America for 45 years) taught my wife how to do that when he was teaching her to drive. I once caught him doing it in our little Datsun.

Yeah Really who just hops in a new car and starts getting there "Tommy Toggle" on!!! That's ridiculous.

I've never heard of the expression 'tommy toggle'. Reading that got me laughing so hard this morning! So what is 'tommy toggle' dtocks?

My coworker never even hopped in my Patriot when he started rowing through the gears. He just opened the drivers door, leaned in over the drivers seat, and started shifting away!

Needless to say, I always keep it locked now - especially if he's anywhere in the vicinity!

There were synchronizers in the old transmissions, however they weren't very good. This was especially true under heavy loads or steep grades where momentum disipated quickly. If you didn't give it a hand somehow, you'd be below the range of the gear before they synch'd making shifting pointless.

I've driven my share of war era and post war era trucks. To say they didn't have synchronizers in the transmissions is just false. As a matter of fact, in 1986 my brother and I completely restored a 53 Chevy Viking which included completely rebuilding the entire power train because it had stripped gears in both the transmission and dual speed rear end.

In 91-93 I participated in the restoration of a WWII Deuce-and-a-half for the comemoration of the 50th aniversary of WWII. We actually had to machine replacement parts to spec because we couldn't get them and those transmissions had sychronizers.

If you want to experience transmissions without sychronizers, go find old farm tractors like the 40's Farmall M or H. Try to shift those on the fly double-clutch or not and see how far you get.

Someone getting there "Tommy Toggle" on in my brand new pat is a great way for them to get a swift kick in the nuts!

Someone getting there "Tommy Toggle" on in my brand new pat is a great way for them to get a swift kick in the nuts!

Don't you mean a swift kick in the "toggle?" HA! :D

The only time the clutch on a manual transmission car is disconnected is when the clutch pedal is pushed in. If the sychromesh engage teeth are lined up you can go into "gear". If not, trying to force the lever can damage the linkage. When the engine is running, with the tailshaft turning transmission gears if the car is running, the gears have enough movement to engage. If the car is stopped, sometimes my '87 Cherokee 5 MT would not go into first. What I would do is put it in neutral, let out the clutch to get the gears turning, push the clutch pedal in again, and then put it into first.

Old three speed car/truck and truck four speed trannys typically didn't have syncromesh on reverse and first gear. I used to double clutch our 1959 three speed Chevy truck into first gear while it was still moving using the engine through the clutch in neutral to speed up the first speed gears so that they would engage (mesh). When four speed gear boxes for cars came out in the late fifties and early sixties, they typically had synchronizers on all forward gears.

For what it is worth, and your mileage may vary (FWIW and YMMV). :)

When I was a kid, this was called "speed shifting", and the only reason you did it was to show off. I could do it with my '51 Ford. As I recall, it helped to have a badly worn clutch. Never could do it with my dad's '50 Studebaker. Since then, I did it occasionally with a '90 Plymouth Laser, just to see if I still could.

changing gears while the engine is off is the same thing as putting your car into reverse gear while its running and the clutch is engaged (well in a XJ at least)