I've just about had it with this thing! If you've read any of my other posts about the CVT you know that I'm not fond of it. Not only is it sluggish in getting up to speed as we've all discussed, but today I had a very embarrassing problem on the trail; I couldn't get it up, the hill that is! :o

Now, I'm not speaking to all the flat-landers out there who take their Patriot off-road in the nearby woods with small hills, I'm speaking of back country Colorado trail riding. The Patriot CVT SUCKS! We (me and my new Liberty buddy Darryl) came to a decent grade with several rock outcroppings requiring a slow speed to negotiate and ascend. About halfway up the 1/4 mile hill with about a 35 degree degree angle (not sure of percentage), the CVT simply WOULD NOT GO! I tried in vain not to have to back down or be pulled up. I tried every combination of Drive you can imagine, with and without ESP, 4 lock, and even the 'crawl ratio'; nothing worked. I had to allow Darryl around me, hook up the tow strap and have him pull me up the hill!!!!! Thank GOD the Mile High Jeep Club with about 50 members had already passed and was not resting at the top of the hill, after all, every one of them made it just fine, including the stock Liberty, Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee.

If I could take this thing back I would. I would get a 5 speed and make it trail rated on my own. I mean, seriously, how the hell can you sell a 'trail rated' version with no manual transmission, that won't make it up a trail that everyone else can; including the competition?!?!?! :confused:

My advice; DO NOT BUY the CVT if you plan on using it's 'trail rated' capability. And for those of you who do take it off-road, keep up your momentum!


Check this out!!! http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19215&postcount=69 Problem Fixed!!!

Yikes! Sorry to hear about your experience...I test drove the cvt (and said no way)...and ordered a 5speed....Loving it

Ouch! Sorry to hear this, Dawson. I am going to be in Colorado on some back roads in October. I will have a 5 speed FD1 with off road tires. Sounds like I will have to pick and choose my trails. Can you tell me what trail you were on so I can do some cross-checking with my sources?

Thanks in advance.

Or you could buy a FDII Patriot and swap in a 5-speed. Then you would have all the trail rated hardware just sacrificing the low range. And it sounds like it would be worth it. Dawson if this is possible consider it!

If I were you I would maybe go get it checked out! I went on some private trails few weeks ago and I went up this one hill I didn't even think we would make it up, it was very steep!! Well we did, and I even stopped in the middle of it and had my brother in-law get out to take a pic (that didn't turn out) and he got back in and we finished the hill with no problems! So I am wondering if there might be something wrong with yours!!

Ouch! Sorry to hear this, Dawson. I am going to be in Colorado on some back roads in October. I will have a 5 speed FD1 with off road tires. Sounds like I will have to pick and choose my trails. Can you tell me what trail you were on so I can do some cross-checking with my sources?

Thanks in advance.

Where are you going to be? Maybe we can hook up. It would be nice to see another Patriot out there. I was the ONLY Patriot on the trails that I've seen in the past three weeks.

Hasty: I'm beginning to wonder how much altitude is playing in this, but still, the computer should be smart enough to adjust (after all, it is the 3rd millennium). I emailed Jeep very mad, maybe they'll do something; not holding my breath. Really the only way to show them what I'm talking about is to take them out on the trail, the dealer sure as hell won't go.

Offroader: A novel idea, but that would probably be more expensive than buying the 5spd and installing the skid plates, etc. I'm tempted to tell them to take it back unless they can get it working as it should. From the Jeep website: "TRACTION
SOME MIGHT CALL THESE TESTS CRUEL. WE CALL THEM INITIATION.
Even straight from the dealership Jeep® Trail Rated® 4x4s have enough traction to climb the type of hills most people would only attempt with a rope and a spotter. Jeep vehicles offer a variety of 4x4 systems to suit all kinds of terrain and driving conditions." Since this isn't the case, would this be false advertising?

All I know is, they better do something about it!

I didn't think the Jeep Patriot was intended for the kind of off-roading you are talking about. Neither is the Jeep Compass. I know you can get that Trail Rated badge but a Jeep Patriot is not in the same class as previous Jeep models. Suggest you buy a Jeep Liberty next time. At least now you know your limits!

Dawson, unfortunately I won't be in charge of the timing or the itinerary in Colorado so I will have to take a pass. Thanks for the thought, though.

The other contributions on getting a Liberty or other Jeep to take on the challenges are right on if the issue is taking on difficult roads with power/traction to spare. At the same time, I think there are a fair number of us who are willing to adapt and compromise a little to get better fuel efficiency, but we need to know just how much compromise is required. We are trying to "find" those limits, and that takes some trial and error.

I guess in a year people reading this forum will be able to benefit from our reports to know just what they will be able to do. In the meantime, we are pioneers!

I didn't think the Jeep Patriot was intended for the kind of off-roading you are talking about. Neither is the Jeep Compass. I know you can get that Trail Rated badge but a Jeep Patriot is not in the same class as previous Jeep models. Suggest you buy a Jeep Liberty next time. At least now you know your limits!

I think you missed the point... This was NOT a difficult trail. In fact, the point at which my Patriot would not GO it was sitting on a section of the hill with no rocks; it was smooth packed dirt. The limitations of the Patriot as I see them should be in ground clearance, not general trail riding. I shouldn't have to pay another 5k and get horrible fuel mileage to be able to get up a hill; that's absurd. :doh: Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the hill, otherwise you'd understand this should not have happened!!! Like I said in a previous post, if I wanted to stay on the road, I would have bought a KIA. Impressively I still have yet to find the true limit of the Patriot, although my skid plates did get used on this outing. I understand the Patriot will not go where a Rubicon will without serious modification, but when a competing crossover with half the 'capability' can make it, I should have no problem!

I think before jumping to your conclusions you should READ and UNDERSTAND the problem! What 'kind' of off-roading would you suggest? Maybe a graded dirt road? Ridiculous.

Worrisome. This is just the reason why I joined the forum. To hear all the good AND bad about Patriots. I can then sift through and make an informed decision.

About halfway up the 1/4 mile hill with about a 35 degree degree angle (not sure of percentage), the CVT simply WOULD NOT GO! I tried in vain not to have to back down or be pulled up. I tried every combination of Drive you can imagine, with and without ESP, 4 lock, and even the 'crawl ratio'; nothing worked.

30 degrees feels like you are going straight up vertically, are you sure of the angle?

Were you bottomed out at this point?

Was the engine reving with the converter not engaging?

Did you stop and then try to continue?

Did the transmission over-temp. warning come on?

Seems strange mine has climbed like a rocky mountain goat.

Hmmm, using 0 as flat and 90 as vertical, I was at 35ish.

Bottomed out?

I put the pedal to the floor and it didn't do anything but groan like it didn't want to do anything.

I tried EVERYTHING (yes, including easing on the gas)

No temp warnings

I think you need to get the thing checked out. My FDII climbs like a goat. Check out the trail tests that expeditions west did, too.

There is a technical service bulletin pout that may apply (for Patriots builts before May).

Think about it.

Jeep spends millions of dollars developing th Patriot for a trail rating, and they put the skid plates on the FDII...and you are saying it can't even climb a fairly steep hill. Do you think they forgot to test it???

Or maybe you got the lemon. It happens.

Here's that technical trail report which shows what yours SHOULD be capable of:

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/index.htm

Dawson, Sorry to hear about the problems you had but it sounds like something was going on with your Pat. jucharlie was able to go up similar slopes at similar altitudes without a problem.

Sorry if I seem a little pissed... This is the first new vehicle I've bought and got it for the combination of fuel economy and ability to explore off-road. I am at 3k miles and tomorrow will be scheduling an oil change for this week sometime. In the mean time, I will have my Shop Foreman buddy (at a Jeep dealer) pull up all the bulletins etc. so that when the guys here play dumb, as they surely will, I can be like, look here biotch! I'm also awaiting a reply from Jeep, of course that will probably be a bunch of BS too. After just watching Sicko, health care isn't the only thing f-ed up in this country!

After watching Ratatouille I have concluded rats can cook too. I try to avoid politics in fun websites but I doubt Michael Moore will be going to Cuba for medical care.

After watching Ratatouille I have concluded rats can cook too.

LOL!

Back to the OT, please keep us informed if you find out anything that affected the Patriot's performance! Not that we're ever going to push the limits on my wife's Patriot, but I'm curious as to what the problem is.

I had a similar problem, check this thread out.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

It is simply the limitations of the vehicle.

Now I don't know what to think.
If you go to ExpeditionsWest.com and see what they put the Patriot thru it looks like it can do some hardcore stuff.
Are you sure nothing is wrong with your's?

I had a similar problem, check this thread out.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

It is simply the limitations of the vehicle.

Thank you!! I was looking for that thread. I have also seen another where they (some magazine) had some trouble taking a Pat through sand, and others had no trouble at all (in fact even praising it's abilities).

It is my yet to be proven belief, that some Patriots have their transmission/engine controls programmed improperly. Possibly some sort of torque sensor thinking it's controlling a CVT instead of a CVTL2 and improperly shutting down the transmission of engine power to the CVT to avoid damage.

The CVTL2 with it's 19:1 drive ratio shuld have no trouble with steep hills, logs, rocks, deep snow, and anything else save perhaps brick walls.

Indeed, most testers find that it doesn't as per Expeditions West.

There is at least one technical service bulletin having to do with percieved poor performance. It takes perhaps 30 minutes to reprogram the control units.

Anynoe having similar troubles with the trail rated Patriot should:

1) Make sure the proper transmission was installed at the factory.

2) Make sure the latest software has been installed.

Dawson,

Sorry you have had some trouble on the trails....as for my own experience off-road with my FDII....it has been all good....wish you would have taken some pics at the trouble spot....might help with better suggestions....

I had my FDII on some ATV trails near a buddies cottage and was able to climb some fairly steep sandy/muddy hills. We managed to climb some other obstacles that were fairly deeply pitted and scattered with rocks. I will post some pics once he sends them to me.

I would not have able to do most of this without the 19:1 gear ratio.

I did incure a bit of minor scraping on the frame and took off a fair amount of the factory undercoating. The skid plates took a bit of a beating too.

Pics of scrapes (http://www.indianajones.ca/jeep/damage.html)

I think height is the major limiting factor. I am lucky I didn't scrape the sides of the Jeep. I think a pair of rock sliders will be next.

Overall I was very happy the way it performed. And for anybody who expects not to incur any damage while off-road, they are fooling themselves.

I had a similar problem, check this thread out.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1687

It is simply the limitations of the vehicle.

I really wish people would quit saying it is a limitation... That simply doesn't help. Especially the thread about being stuck in a foot of snow. I will say it again; I was on a MODERATE hill with a base of packed dirt and not much for rocks (maybe 1-2") where it would not go. Actually, were it stopped, there were no rocks.

And seriously, if you paid what I did for a trail rated Jeep and were in this situation, you would be pissed if this WAS the limitation. It's ludicrous. Quit the limitations card!!!! My 97 Legacy GT would have made it up that hill with less hp and torque.

As for the programming stuff, I had my Jeep Shop Foreman buddy run my ride and found no bulletins etc. I will be discussing this with the dealer on Wednesday evening.

I think some people have accepted what they call a limitation where they actually have a deeper problem. Have your dealer service department run this TSB to see that your modules are up to date: http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/Caliber/TSB/Caliber_1803107.pdf

See if you can arrange to drive or test drive some other FDII model to see if it has the same problem. Most do not.

"My 97 Legacy GT would have made it up that hill with less hp and torque."

Subies are amazing. During certain snow storms my Wrangler would struggle to get out of the driveway sometimes while my wife would have no problem in her outback. Do not get me wrong - you can NOT do anything extreme in a stock Subaru. But for real word situations they can not be beat. With that being said - whenever she drives my Patriot she says she wants one. Go figure.

I think some people have accepted what they call a limitation where they actually have a deeper problem. Have your dealer service department run this TSB to see that your modules are up to date: http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/Caliber/TSB/Caliber_1803107.pdf

See if you can arrange to drive or test drive some other FDII model to see if it has the same problem. Most do not.

Something that might help!!! Thanks.

I looked for 2004 GT before the Patriot, but I'm glad I got the Patriot, love the off-roading.

This might be a crazy idea, but how far away where you?
Any chance the dealer would let you take (knowing or not) a different Pat set up the same out there and try it again?

Make some comparisons and narrow down 'limitation' or 'random defect'...

If I could take this thing back I would. I would get a 5 speed and make it trail rated on my own.

My Grand Cherokee has FDI - and it has served me extremely well. I like feeling 'connected' with the road - so when I decided it was time for a new vehicle (and I've been waiting for the Patriot since it was unveiled 2 years ago - or was it 3??) I knew I wanted a manual transmission. I didn't need FDII, and I figured I could add bigger wheels (stock tires suck anyways) and a skid plat and an engine/tranny cooler and have a really good off-road package without having to pay for chrome wheels, FDII, leather seats, etc. - all stuff I really didn't want.

I had a hell of a time getting a local dealer to even search for a manual for me - yet alone eliminate leather seats and chrome wheels - they only wanted to sell what they had on the lot.

I ended up having to go 150 miles to get a dealer to sell me what I wanted. I take deliver exactly one week from today. :pepper:

I've had lots of people tell me that "Aww - I'da gotten the automatic" so, obviously, I have a little doubt going. I could be driving a trail-rated Patriot right now - which, for the last 8 weeks, it has been really tempting to just cry "uncle" and head to the dealer and get one. I went so far as to seriously consider it - having my brother take a test drive and do some negotiating (got it down to .5% over invoice!) - but common sense kicked in and I decided to be patient and wait for what was coming.

Glad I am.

Sorry to hear about your woes, though.

My Grand Cherokee has FDI...

Wrong... no Grand Cherokees had Freedom Drive.

See: http://www.jeep.com/4x4/index.html

Grand Cherokees (and Wranglers, Commanders, Libertys, Cherokees, etc.) come equipped with a traditional transmission / transfer case setup instead of a CVT setup.

A traditional transmission / transfer case will outperform a CVT in almost every situation. The Wrangler Rubicon's Rock-Trac system is likely the best rock-crawling 4WD system out there. The Commander and Grand Cherokee's QuadraDrive II system is probably the best overall 4WD system out there -- able to handle the highway fine and pull itself out of nearly any sticky situation you can throw at it. The CVT was used on the Patriot and Compass for fuel savings only.

I know you don't want to hear it, but certainly consider it a limitation of the CVT based trans. Don't forget this is a BELT based system. In this case, from the specs I read it is an "armored" belt, but a belt none-the-less.

If it breaks, your stuck and it could do a lot of damage. If it starts to slip, it could do a lot of damage. They have to have failsafes built into the control codes to stop that from happening.

There maybe a bug in the code where the failsafe kicks in prematurely, but there is a point where if you apply too much torque and the wheels can't turn... snap, bang.

They should be able to tap into the system and get the event codes of the incident, but it's probably too late for that now. If your "buddy" didn't want to do that, maybe he isn't really your buddy and you need to find a different dealer.

Let's also remember the the tried and true wisdom that there is no free lunch. I really think that at the very least you should have bought the 5 speed, or if you really wanted a mountain goat, a Liberty or a Wrangler.

Caveat Emptor man, Caveat Emptor.

For those that are worried about the CVT, Nissan has switched almost all their vehicles to CVT. The Murano, Maxima, Altima, etc.

Nissan has stated that CVT is the way of the future and they will be the first Mfgr to switch all their vehicles over. They claim they will be the first to sell 1 Million vehicles with CVT's.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/050228-01.html

So the technology may be new, but companies are showing confidence in them and changing their vehicles to use the new technology.

As for offroading and torque, I think like others have stated, the programming may limit what the CVT can do, but it should be able to do the stated torque in the specifications (166lbs for the Patriot). If 166lbs isn't enough, then you have to get a vehicle with larger engine and stronger transmission.

Nissan has stated that CVT is the way of the future and they will be the first Mfgr to switch all their vehicles over. They claim they will be the first to sell 1 Million vehicles with CVT's.

They plan to switch their pickups and vehicles like the Armada over to CVT too? That ought to be amusing/interesting.

CVT is hardly the wave of the future... it's been used in light-duty tractors for years. Vehicles like the Tomcar use the CVT. Those usually use a chain-drive CVT which is noisier but much more rugged. The belt driven CVTs have their limitations... especially when it comes to off-road abuse, hauling heavy loads, or other high torque applications.

I love the CVT in my Patriot. As the CVT becomes more popular and put in more vehicles we should hopefully see some advanced CVT programming options available. Driving stop-n-go in the city? Press a button to engage "city mode" CVT programming. Taking a trip on the open highway for a few 100 miles? Press another button to engage "highway mode" CVT programming.

I've experienced this "split personality" (but to a lesser degree) with the Patriot. And that is with a set/fixed program.

I think a CVT in every car is a fantastic idea. Smaller and more effeceint than any traditional transaxle ever could dream of being. But that is besides the point. This thread was drafted to determine if the CVT of the FDII, on this particular Patroit, is defective or to deduce a problem in the programing of the transmission module.

Going up a moderate hill and stopping, then not being able to continue is most defenintly not a thing any Jeep product should be known for. "Trail rated or not." any car should be able to climb a slight grade on moderatly solid soil.

Going up a moderate hill and stopping, then not being able to continue is most defenintly not a thing any Jeep product should be known for. "Trail rated or not." any car should be able to climb a slight grade on moderatly solid soil.
Exactly. It seems obvious (at least to me) that the OP's experience is due to a defect and not a flaw in the design.

I know you don't want to hear it, but certainly consider it a limitation of the CVT based trans. Don't forget this is a BELT based system. In this case, from the specs I read it is an "armored" belt, but a belt none-the-less.

If it breaks, your stuck and it could do a lot of damage. If it starts to slip, it could do a lot of damage. They have to have failsafes built into the control codes to stop that from happening.

There maybe a bug in the code where the failsafe kicks in prematurely, but there is a point where if you apply too much torque and the wheels can't turn... snap, bang.

They should be able to tap into the system and get the event codes of the incident, but it's probably too late for that now. If your "buddy" didn't want to do that, maybe he isn't really your buddy and you need to find a different dealer.

Let's also remember the the tried and true wisdom that there is no free lunch. I really think that at the very least you should have bought the 5 speed, or if you really wanted a mountain goat, a Liberty or a Wrangler.

Caveat Emptor man, Caveat Emptor.

Argh.... My "buddy" has been a friend for 14 years! Oh, and did I forget to mention that he lives in DETROIT, and I'm in DENVER. Ass. Seriously, get a grip. Keep your Patriot on the road where you think it belongs and keep your uneducated opinions to yourself. (yes, you did deserve that)

As I've stated; I understand how the CVT works and the protection systems. As others have stated, with the L range and crawl ratio, it should not act like a regular CVT and should have made it up the hill that all other stock Jeeps could, and the competition.

No grudges here, my friend.

Anybody else have any friendly suggestions for Mr. Dawson? I sure don't.

Hey, thanks to everyone who had a helpful suggestion, I'll be looking in to some of these things when I speak with my Dealer this evening. I also received the standard blah, blah, blah email and apology from Jeep. I emailed them back asking when someone would have an answer to the problem. We'll see.

I think we learned a lesson here, if you don't understand the problem, you should leave it alone. I would never jump on anyone here to push the easy way out, especially when the easy answer was made clearly not the case! I apologize if I've offended anyone, but in this case, support was needed, not pessimism.

No, I think we are all ok... Just part of the site's "growing up" stages. There are two real issues that I see and one additional:

1) We should stay on topic in threads. It's hard to accomplish anything when we all go in circles and snap back and forth.

2) Only a small grouping of users (2) have experienced this problem so far. So the knowledge base isn't established... For those that blaze the trail first, it's hardest but you at least get credit for years to come about getting the issue resolved

3) I don't have a Patriot so I don't know what I'm talking about. :)


Get on the horn with the folks at Jeep and tell them your thoughts about the "trail rated" badge on the side of your brand new Jeep. They should come out and experience the problem first hand and then be able to diagnose and solve in a short amount of time.

I think we learned a lesson here, if you don't understand the problem, you should leave it alone.
You kind of brought it on yourself by shouting "DON'T BUY THE CVT FOR OFF ROAD!!!" in a room full of Patriot fans. I'm surprized no one has accused you of mistaking the brake for the gas pedal. :) I live in Delaware where our one mountain range soars to a majestic 468' above sea level. I picked up my Patriot 7/14/07 and was going to attempt the arduous climb to the summit but found the trees were too close together. Having nowhere to actually test the capability of the car while trying to make a purchase decision I found this site to be very helpful. The photos found at this link http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/index.htm were a deciding factor. The second photo, credited to Daimler Chrysler, has the car nearly vertical. From your description of your problem I suspect your car would not have made it beyond that point. I sincerely hope the technicians find a problem. If not then the capabilities of this car have been seriously overstated. Regarding your rant post I say :smiley_thumbs_up: .

Yeah, the "DON' BUY..." was a little over the top, but I was mad and it did get some attention. After all, there are usually over 100 posts a day on this site, one needs to stand out to get some feedback.

What are the limitations to the angle of slope the Patriot can climb?

First there is the tire to ground static friction coefficient. The maximum angle of slope that can be climbed is the arcsine of the coefficent. If the coefficient were, say, 0.5 then any angle above 30 deg and the tires would simply slide. With a coefficient of .71 the angle would be a little over 45 deg. No amount of torque, weight or engine power would overcome that.

Next there is the amount of torque applied at the wheels versus torque applied by gravity attempting to pull you back down the hill. Gravity torque is the weight of the vehicle and occupants times the radius of the tires times the sine of the slope angle. With 28 inch wheels the radius is 1.167 feet, and the weight of the Patriot with a couple of ocuupants might be around 3800 pounds. The engine is rated at about 166 ft-lbs of torque, and the crawl mode gear ratio of the FDII patriot is 19:1 so that the torque available at the wheels is 19 x 166 = 3154. Equating 3154 to 1.167 x 3800 x sine slope allows us to find the slope angle to be arcsin of 3154/4433 or about 45 deg.

The torque at the rear wheels will not vary with different tire sizes, but the torque to be overcome due to gravity will. With a thirty inch tire the slope would be about 41.6 deg. With a 26 inch tire the slope would be 50 deg.

Smaller tires are better for climbing smooth slopes!!

However, smaller tires as we all know are worse for climbing over rocks, curbs and logs. It would seem that the tire size on the stock Patriot, the amount of engine torque, friction coefficients of typical hills of dirt, and final drive ratios are well matched to one another and slopes of up to a little over 40 deg should be climbable in crawl mode.

My email responses from jeep have all been like that, no real statements/information. Please call the number on there and those guys are much more forthcoming/helpful. Maybe they can setup a field test or something, especially if you don't have any luck at dealer. Good luck!

Gravity torque? Puleeze. Torque is only related to twisting and rotation - in short, torsion. The ability (or ease) to initiate rotation or to maintain rotation. Nuff said.

Dear Mr. Cerberus, is the torque published valid only at the crankshaft or at the axle? Must be the former since there is no published *net* after the transmission.

Dawson, did the wheels turn at all? Sounds like no. Then, I go with a failsafe mechanism kicking in when max torque is reached and the sensors realize no turn of the wheels, then force the CVT to go no-op. Did the mill race or bog down? If there was enough torque, the wheels should turn. You are confident that even if this was a manny tranny, you would have been successful?

Hmmm, any chance you had to negotiate a rock outcrop that was 90 degrees off axis while the Pat was sitting at 35 degrees? You'd be asking the Pat to negotiate an additional 55 degree climb albeit momentarily. It would take some serious torque, around 300 lb-ft to scale such an outcrop. I am thinking that not even the finesse of working a clutch with the mill's powerband would have helped. The outcrop would have had to be an additional 8 inches mind you to foil the tires which, even if you succeeded would be a hard wallop on the frame on landing. Battered egos are better than battered frames [wry smile].

Something's amiss. Dear Mr. Cerberus...

"Gravity torque? Puleeze. Torque is only related to twisting and rotation - in short, torsion. The ability (or ease) to initiate rotation or to maintain rotation. Nuff said."

Well then, give it some other name if you will. The principle is the same.

Gravity pulls down upon the vehicle. The normal force at the point of contact between the wheel and the ground resolves into two components. One in the vertical direction to oppose the force of gravity, and one in the tangential direction. This tangential force multiplied by it's lever arm, namely the radius of the wheel, can be thought of in terms of the amount of torque which must be applied to the wheel in order to create an opposing tangential force in the opposite direction so that the vehicle does not get pulled down the hill due to the action of the aforesaid force of gravity.

The principle is the same. Perhpas if you drew a picture....

Using the terminolgy "gravity torque" to apply to a ficticous torque is no worse than using the term "cetrifugal force" to apply to the fictcious force related to centripetal action.

Sometimes using a name to label a concept simplifies things.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Wow...

Who knew I'd start another battle! LOL

Yeah, so, no tire spinnage at all. Just sat there. I'm assuming at this point that programming is the problem in that it was programmed as a regular CVT2 with no L. This would definitely stop it cold. Went to the dealer for oil change today. Talked to the Service Manager. He is looking into the problem and I am taking it back in tomorrow afternoon so they can 'flash' it with the StarScan. Maybe that will tell us something.

Check this out from Chrysler "Customer Assistance":

Dear Bill:

Thank you for contacting the Chrysler Group Customer Assistance Center
regardig previous communication concerning the transmission is your 2007
Jeep Patriot.

The technical information you are requesting is not available here at
the Customer Assistance Center. Also, the engineers and technical
support staff does not deal with the general public.

We suggest you contact your local Jeep dealer for further assistance
with this matter.

Any future communication related to this issue will be retained in
corporate records.

If, at some future date, we can be of assistance to you in some other
area, please let us know.

Thanks again for your email.

Sincerely,

Karrie

Senior Staff Representative
Chrysler Group Customer Assistance Center

So, if Customer Assistance isn't there to actually ASSIST me, are they just a FEEDBACK CENTER? Nice that we owners are not privy enough to speak with an engineer about a problem we may be having, huh... Since our purchases pay their salaries, does that make them work for US? Oh well, we'll see what the dealer can figure out. Customer relations isn't their strong point obviously.

Their emails are useless, I agree. But, when I called, I found the people very helpful. I see your email doesn't have the call number (mine did)...(gen question line-800 964 0600 and VIN specific - 800 992 1997). The VIN specific one sends you to the chrysler service line but they can pull up your vin and tell you exactly what was done to it and when. At first, they did try to get me to work through my dealer but I explained that they were pretty much clueless (in nicer words) and that's why I needed to talk to someone else.

Good advice!

Hey Dawson.

Good to hear you are going to get your rig looked at tomorrow. I had to go out to a local reservoir to save one of my buddies today. He has an Xterra and the battery died on him(I think he shook it to death) anyway on the way in I got a chance to use the hill-decent control and it worked like a charm. The track down was all sand, rocks and steep a little more than an 1/8 of a mile. On the way back out I kept the tach at around 2000 RPM and it never missed a beat the traction control seemed to do a great job with the rubber in contact with the ground. It was hop, skips and blue sky and clouds to the top of the hill. Keep after the dealer on this, your PAT/RIOT should not have skipped a beat on that hill!

Keep us informed DAWSON

Yes, Dawson, inquiring minds need to know

I finally got my MK off the beaten path and remembering this thread I found some rather steep hills. The MK got up all the smaller ones with no problems at all.

Now, I tried a short but very steep(45+ degrees) hill and I did manage too "stop" the Patriot on this hill. It just didn't seem too have anymore power or torque available to continue climbing. The tires were starting to lose traction, but they weren't spinning. I was about to reverse back down but I decided to try one more trick. I held the Patriot in place with the brakes and throttled up the engine, loading the torque converter up. Then released the brakes and floored the gas. This gave the Jeep just enough of a jump and it did manage to get moving again and finished crawling its way up the hill.

I imagine that this was pushing the outer limit of the Patriot's ability though. Other then that, I was extremely impressed with the Patriots offroad ability!

Well now, that's interesting. I know the CVT changes gear ratios according to engine rpms and torque loading, and now I wonder if at some point when you "stop" while going up a hill it gets up away from it's highest ratio. If that's true and it requires at least a little bit of forward motion to get geared back down, then it's more or less "stuck" there on the hill. Can't go forward cause the gear ratio isn't high enough and can't get the gear ratio up cause it can't go forward,

Maybe gunning the engine helped it shift down.

I know in the Expeditions West report when he was testing it near it's limits he kept the rpm's up near 2k all the while.

It really felt like the drivetrain was giving everything it had, and that it just wasn't enough to keep going. Remember, even in offroad crawl mode, 19:1 isn't very low. My TJ is somewhere around 50:1 in 4-Low 1st gear.

I think that the engine's torque output combined with the 19:1 gearing just isn't enough to tackle a really steep hill. I'm not complaining, normally I wouldn't have tried that particular hill with the Patriot, but this thread got me curious so I went for it.

Like I said in my previous post, the Patriot really held it's own out there today. I was impressed.

I just picked up my Patriot from the dealer. They 're-flashed' both computers and said it is a BIG difference. So, I guess it was a programming issue. Of course, this weekend will be the test. We're going on a trail ride with LOST Rockies near Colorado Springs on the China Wall trail. If anyone's interested in going along, let me know.

I'll let you all know how the 'fix' worked.

Hey, don't ever doubt the Patriot until you try something out, man! That's Jeepin'.

Let us know how your trip goes - I hope its fixed!!

Bring a camera! ESPECIALLY if you go back to 'Devil's Hill'.

Good Luck

:smiley_thumbs_up:

Jim

Yes, by my calculation a 45 - 48 deg hill is just abouit the limit. The Jatco CVT2L transmission includes a torque convertor at the front end which makes it possible to gun the engine to it's peak on the torque curve ands let the Patriots traction control system take care of the rest, but even so I don't think you can go much beyond that limit. Of, course that's also pretty close to where the tires won't take you any further either.

Good luck, Dawson, I'm a rootin' for ya! All kidding aside, I really hope that cured your problem, please let us know how things turn out.

Dawson I had a similiar problem as you except I was trying to back up a steep hill with 1 front tire stuck in about 8" of mud. 4x4 lock engaged other tires on hard packed sand. Engine reving vehicle motionless. I disengaged traction control and shut off ESP wheels didn't spin. Finally trans overtemp light came on I shut it down and had to be pulled out. BTW I did remove mud from around wheel and the undercarriage was not touching the ground. Once wheel was out of hole Pat zipped right up hill. I just think its strange the other tires wouldn't spin. I'll have my dealer reflash my CVT since the service bulliten does apply to my March build date. I look forward to hearing if the flash did in fact fix your problem. I want to back into same hole and see if Pat could pull itself out going forward in crawl mode since it couldn't in reverse.

After a little more study, I think the limitation arises in the torque converter portion of the CVT2L. This site has a pretty good discussion of torque converters in general:

http://bankspower.com/Tech_understandtorqueconver.cfm

and these two articles discuss the Jatco transmission itself in some detail:

http://www.gearsmagazine.com/images/...2007_03_38.pdf

http://www.gearsmagazine.com/images/...2007_04_04.pdf

Perhaps some more study will give more insight into the best driving technique for tough situations or any possible modifications to improve the situation.

I'm already missing the good 'ol days when you just gunned it and turned the wheel back and forth! Now there's a science to driving! Seems there's just too much to have to think about doing 'correctly' when you're already trying to stay on the trail (not down the cliff), or negotiate some obstacles. You should have been able to get out. From what I understand, the crawl ratio is still supposed to work in reverse. I'll pay a little more attention to it this weekend and let ya know. We're going out with a few liberties, so I'll try to get mine stuck and see what it can handle!

We're going on a trail ride with LOST Rockies near Colorado Springs on the China Wall trail.

Have a great time with the LOST guys. If you are interested we'll have to get you setup with one of their Trail Tested badges for your Patriot. I'll take some pictures of mine tonight and post them up after work ends for the day.

I'm already missing the good 'ol days when you just gunned it and turned the wheel back and forth! Now there's a science to driving!

I know what you mean! I guess there always was a science to driving, but it was pretty much common sense and consisted of knowing to gun the engine and turn the wheel back and forth. Back then you could actually get under the hood and change plugs and tinker with things, now it's all emission controls and automatic this and automatic that. The automatic stuff is fine when it works right and is doing the stuff it is supposed to do, but is just another obstacle to deal with when you get outside the box.

The Patriot cannot be beat, even by highly moded Wranglers, when iit comes to crossing mildly wild terrain at speed. The computer controlled automatic skid control and traction control are faster than any human reflexes, and the independant suspension keeps the ride from getting too rough, but when it comes to hard core stuff like crawling over rocks or climbing nearly vertical cliffs you need something quite a bit more rugged.

Like Clint Eastwood said, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

I blame the whole "Trail Rated" marketing shtick. The Patriot is the perfect vehicle for the guy that has to commute to work during the week, and enjoys camping or fishing on the weekends. It has no problems going into the woods, through a field, etc. to get to one's favorite camping or fishing spot. It was never intended to be a mountain goat.

For hardcore off-roading the Wrangler (and Liberty to a lesser extent) are the vehicles of choice.

I hope that Jeep does a better job of differentiating the capabilities, but with the "Trail Rated" designator it is an all or nothing proposition, and most Jeep snobs will want nothing less than "Trail Rated"... with the expectations that "Trail Rated is Trail Rated".

I think all of us would like the Patriot to be a little closer to the old Cherokee. At least I like the simpler drive train setup better, and its simpler ,and beefer.

Get a CVT/FDI; best of both worlds. You don't really need to climb over logs and rocks to get where you're going. The Patriot, as tcperconti pointed out, can get you where you need to go. If you want that challenge routinely, go Wrangler.

All ya'll haters, pay attention! I was wrong, to some extent. The CVT2L is VERY versatile off road. :smiley_thumbs_up: However, a standard transmission (or regular hydraulic transmission) would be better in very few cases. Just make sure your CVT2L has the right programming.

I went with the LOST guys and gals on the China Wall run last night and had a blast. There were SEVERAL spots I would not have made it with out the re-programming that my dealer performed Thursday. The trail was wet and muddy, making the rocks slippery, but the Patriot crawled over everything! For the most part I left it in 4lock (not low) and it did just fine. I only used L to get up on some rocks and through some steep loose sections. And I turned ESP/Hill decent OFF for the trail.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/gallery/data/500/China_Wall_01.JPG
http://www.jeeppatriot.com/gallery/data/500/China_Wall_04.JPG

See the others in my photo gallery.

Unfortunately, I was the only one who brought a camera, and obviously, it sucks, so I'm going to get a new one today!

Get a CVT/FDI; best of both worlds. You don't really need to climb over logs and rocks to get where you're going. The Patriot, as tcperconti pointed out, can get you where you need to go. If you want that challenge routinely, go Wrangler.
Again, if you're gonna keep it on-road, buy a KIA! Not sure where you're from, but rocks are an integral part of off-roading in the West. EVERY trail has rocks and rock outcroppings that need to be negotiated. TRUST ME, I use my skid plates and +1" ground clearance that came with my FDII. And who says to be routinely off-road, you have to have a Wrangler?! I prefer the comfort AND capability of the Patriot, and have been out the past four weekends straight; pretty routine I'd say.

Haters be ware, the Patriot is capable of MUCH more than you could imagine! Limitations, my ass... :blah: Still haven't found these elusive limitations for my stock Patriot, but I will.

I thought, by joining this Forum, I would find a group of enthusiasts who would like to see the Patriot overcome the stigma of being a "car based SUV", whatever the hell that is. Sadly there seems to be more people who want to classify the Patriot as a light duty (2-track) vehicle than anything else. What gives? Why don't you let us FIND the limitations before you assume them?

To those who bought their Patriot to take off-road, I say, GO. Get out there. Don't be stupid, but don't be afraid either. Have a spotter and recovery vehicle and find the limitations for yourself!!!!!! Happy Trails. :banana:

Thanks for the update. Now do us Patriot fans a favor and edit your first post in this thread to include a link to your last one.

I'm glad you got it all sorted out!!! Congrats and enjoy!

Good going Mr Dawson, sir! One problem has been that the Patriot is so new that no one knew quite what to expect from it. When a few ended up with mis-programmed (Jeep should have done a better job, both with the original programming, as well as follow up to let people know) units they ascribed their problem to a limitation with the engine and/or CVT2L transmission.

Glad you got it sorted out.

DAWSON, thank for your update :smiley_thumbs_up:
But now I'm really confused about this whole bussines.

I guess I took a descition I will wait one year more or may be less and I will see what will happen with a Jeep Patriot

Cheers

I'm glad that all has worked out in the end, Dawson.:smiley_thumbs_up:
Your fixed problem will certainly make us more aware of an easy solution if any of us encounter such a problem in the future. We all know that some dealers aren't as smart as others.:icon_rolleyes:

Rock on :rockon:

Congats Dawson! Good to read you with a smile on your face. Keep diggin in the dirt and rocks.

All ya'll haters, pay attention! I was wrong, to some extent. The CVT2L is VERY versatile off road. :smiley_thumbs_up: However, a standard transmission (or regular hydraulic transmission) would be better in very few cases. Just make sure your CVT2L has the right programming.

I went with the LOST guys and gals on the China Wall run last night and had a blast. There were SEVERAL spots I would not have made it with out the re-programming that my dealer performed Thursday. The trail was wet and muddy, making the rocks slippery, but the Patriot crawled over everything! For the most part I left it in 4lock (not low) and it did just fine. I only used L to get up on some rocks and through some steep loose sections. And I turned ESP/Hill decent OFF for the trail.

Again, if you're gonna keep it on-road, buy a KIA! Not sure where you're from, but rocks are an integral part of off-roading in the West. EVERY trail has rocks and rock outcroppings that need to be negotiated. TRUST ME, I use my skid plates and +1" ground clearance that came with my FDII. And who says to be routinely off-road, you have to have a Wrangler?! I prefer the comfort AND capability of the Patriot, and have been out the past four weekends straight; pretty routine I'd say.

Haters be ware, the Patriot is capable of MUCH more than you could imagine! Limitations, my ass... :blah: Still haven't found these elusive limitations for my stock Patriot, but I will.

I thought, by joining this Forum, I would find a group of enthusiasts who would like to see the Patriot overcome the stigma of being a "car based SUV", whatever the hell that is. Sadly there seems to be more people who want to classify the Patriot as a light duty (2-track) vehicle than anything else. What gives? Why don't you let us FIND the limitations before you assume them?

To those who bought their Patriot to take off-road, I say, GO. Get out there. Don't be stupid, but don't be afraid either. Have a spotter and recovery vehicle and find the limitations for yourself!!!!!! Happy Trails. :banana:
I'm sorry that I can't be as happy as others are for you. First you start an over-the-top thread claiming that the CVT is not for off-road. Let's review your claims in the post that started this thread:

The Patriot CVT SUCKS!
If I could take this thing back I would. I would get a 5 speed and make it trail rated on my own.
My advice; DO NOT BUY the CVT if you plan on using it's 'trail rated' capability.

No where in that post did you ask anyone for info to find out if others experienced similar issues. It was just a "this is what I experienced and this is my conclusion". Your mind was already made up and you weren't interested in a solution.

But you DID receive guidance in how to get it corrected, even though you didn't ask for it. Some of us tried to offer a more balanced view of the Patriot's abilities. Now that your problem is solved and it is NOT an inherent problem with the CVT, you can't even man-up and admit that you were wrong. "I was wrong to some extent" is really lame.

THEN you go on to call the rest of us "haters"?! I look back at the history of posts on this board, and before your DON'T BUY THE CVT FOR OFF ROAD!!! thread, the discussion on the capabilities of the Patriot have been virtually unanimously positive.

So don't go turning around now and act like the champion of the off-road capabilities of the Patriot.

If this board had an "ignore" function, I would use it. Because I can do without the infantile swings of emotions you have demonstrated in this thread. :icon_rolleyes:

If this board had an "ignore" function, I would use it. Because I can do without the infantile swings of emotions you have demonstrated in this thread. :icon_rolleyes:
Click username > click view public profile > click add to ignore list. I haven't tried it so don't yell at me if it doesn't work. :)

Dawson:

Glad things have worked out.

Others

This forum is a great place to boast and beat up the Patriot. I just bought a Patriot Limited yesterday and will be driving it home later today. I plan on keeping you guys informed of all the good and especially the bad things if any. It's very important this feedback occurs so that we can all get a well rounded knowledge of the Pat. From a selfish side, I will get some great advice too.

As for Dawson's original rant, we all get our days too. After dropping a ton o' cash and things don't work out as planned, anyone would want to blow off steam. Besides, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Dawson's email was a squeaky wheel and dang it got attention. There ya go.

If it's not fatal, it's no big deal.;)

Well I just got back from a 2700 mi trip to Wyoming and Montana with my 4x4 FDI, CVT equipped Patriot and have to say I was amazed at how good this thing was in the mountains.

I bought this for mainly highway (and snow and ice driving with a little bit of "unimproved roads" (read dirt sand & gravel and some rocks)) and to be my daily driver.

Well first off I was very impressed with its performance on this trip. AC allowed us to cross the Great Basin in Wyoming when the air temperature was 107 F and we were cool calm and collected as they say. We also took this thing up above the treeline on some "rancher roads" (approximately 10,000ft) and even though this wasn't the FDII, I was impressed at what a mountain goat it was. We climped steep hills, decscended steep hills (used the L on the CVT and locked in the 4WD).

And then there was the highway aspect of the trips. One day we drove from Jackson, WY to Billings, MT via The Tetons, Yellowstone and the Beartooth Highway. Lots of steep ups and downs. (average speed for most of the trip was a national Park-imposed 45mph) But here's the kicker. On that day I got an overall MPG figure of 32.2 MPG with the patriot loaded down with all of our gear and two hefty adults. (those long canyon descents really help out on the MPGs). But we were able to climb some steep grades with the RPMs between 2000 and 3000 RPM. Not bad for a 2.4L 4-banger at all!

Comfort, great handling, great gas mileage and better than expected/planned for light off road duty and you can count me a very happy owner!

My next patriot (if I get one) I'll probably pop for the FDII option just to take the off-roading part up a notch, but then I also still have my Cherokee. But since I don't really do a lot of trailing anymore, I'm pretty content with the FDI.

This fall I'll be taking the Patriot into the back country on fire breaks, forest service roads, etc. in the Superior National Forest. I think it will do just fine.

Don

You know what may have really happened: "would not go up hill". The prankster passenger probably pulled up the E-brake and having set off the driver to such a level of rant could not go back on the situation and fess up.
Just for laughs.
Glad your back in business.

....ground static friction coefficient maximum angle of slope.... arcsine.... 19 x 166 = 3154. Equating 3154 to 1.167 x 3800 x sine slope allows us to find the slope angle to be arcsin of 3154/4433 or about 45 deg....


Very detailed information, thank-you for providing. Now I am scared to drive anywhere !!

All I have to say that be it as it may, it is stock! Trail Rated, but stock still stock Trail Rated.

I've just about had it with this thing! If you've read any of my other posts about the CVT you know that I'm not fond of it. Not only is it sluggish in getting up to speed as we've all discussed, but today I had a very embarrassing problem on the trail; I couldn't get it up, the hill that is! :o

Now, I'm not speaking to all the flat-landers out there who take their Patriot off-road in the nearby woods with small hills, I'm speaking of back country Colorado trail riding. The Patriot CVT SUCKS! We (me and my new Liberty buddy Darryl) came to a decent grade with several rock outcroppings requiring a slow speed to negotiate and ascend. About halfway up the 1/4 mile hill with about a 35 degree degree angle (not sure of percentage), the CVT simply WOULD NOT GO! I tried in vain not to have to back down or be pulled up. I tried every combination of Drive you can imagine, with and without ESP, 4 lock, and even the 'crawl ratio'; nothing worked. I had to allow Darryl around me, hook up the tow strap and have him pull me up the hill!!!!! Thank GOD the Mile High Jeep Club with about 50 members had already passed and was not resting at the top of the hill, after all, every one of them made it just fine, including the stock Liberty, Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee.

If I could take this thing back I would. I would get a 5 speed and make it trail rated on my own. I mean, seriously, how the hell can you sell a 'trail rated' version with no manual transmission, that won't make it up a trail that everyone else can; including the competition?!?!?! :confused:

My advice; DO NOT BUY the CVT if you plan on using it's 'trail rated' capability. And for those of you who do take it off-road, keep up your momentum!


Check this out!!! http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19215&postcount=69 Problem Fixed!!!

I found this. Check it out. It is a TSB from Chrysler.

THE StarSCAN® FLASH FILES FOR THIS BULLETIN MUST BE RETRIEVED FROM
THE INTERNET.
StarSCAN® SOFTWARE LEVEL MUST BE AT RELEASE 7.04 OR HIGHER FOR THIS
BULLETIN.
SUBJECT:
Flash: Launch Performance / Driveability Enhancements
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the GPEC Powertrain Control
Module (PCM) with new software.
CAUTION: VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A CVT TRANSMISSION MUST HAVE THE
TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULE (TCM) CHECKED FOR THE LATEST
SOFTWARE LEVEL WHENEVER THE PCM SOFTWARE IS UPGRADED. IF
NEWER TCM SOFTWARE IS AVAILABLE, IT MUST BE INSTALLED.
MODELS:
2007 (MK49) Compass
2007 (MK74) Patriot
2007 (PM) Caliber
NOTE: This bulletin applies to models equipped with a 1.8L, 2.0L or 2.4L gasoline
engine (Sales Code EBA, ECN or ED3) on PM/MK models built before April
21, 2007 (MDH 0421XX).
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Some customers may experience the following:
· Automatic CVT models - Perceived lack of performance under light to moderate
acceleration from a stop.
· All Models - Ticking Sound intermittently heard from the engine compartment.
Software changes have been made to improve the above bullet points. In addition,
changes to maximum RPM in neutral have been made to assist A/C compressor function
during cold ambient temperatures to prevent A/C compressor slugging.

I sure hope this isn't the case with my FDII. I haven't had a chance yet to get it off road. Trail rating was very important to me. And the dealer won me over from the Liberty with the promised and highly advertised 30 MPG.

Unfortunately, I bought the first Liberty that arrived in my area. There was no sticker on it the day I bought it. I was very upset to learn that the FDII drops the MPG from 30 to 23! And to find out about that PUNY 11 gallon gas tank...

I could've bought a 6 cylinder Liberty, and gotten a $4500 rebate. So if my Patriot turns out not to be a capable off roader, I am going to be VERY disappointed.

Wonder if the guy was using premium gas? Manual says premium should be used for off road.

It's actually more like a 13 1/2 gallon tank, but still pretty small. If you fill it all the way to the top of the filler neck you;ll have close 15 gallons.

with the promised and highly advertised 30 MPG.
<snip> So if my Patriot turns out not to be a capable off roader, I am going to be VERY disappointed.


I think you will be happier with your off road conclusions then you will with your mileage.


Cheers,
Jim

Buyer beware. I stated several months ago that the Patriot, while a capable off-roader, will not be Cherokee-like in its performance.

The Patriot would be more then a match for a stock Cherokee. Especially with the electronic locking diffs. Where the XJ becomes a better wheeler is when the modifications start.

As far as gas, I always burn 87 out here. They (typically) in CO only sell 85, 87 and 91. Although I don't go cheap on much of anything, I'm not going to pay for 91. Can anyone explain why 85 is sold here? I've heard that lower octane is okay because of less O2?!?!?! Does this make any sense? I came from MI where they sold 87, 89 and 91.

We just got back from a weekend of offroading (pics coming tomorrow). Today (Sunday) we hooked up with some co-workers and ended up on some NASTY trails. Nothing the Patriot could not handle ground clearance wise; the only thing that slowed us down (and stopped us) was the grade. Anything above about 40-45 degrees begins to bog down the CVT, even in crawl mode. We DID find the limitations of the Patriot CVT on this trip. This pic sort-of shows the grade:

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/gallery/data/500/The_Hill.JPG

Now, I know this will get some fired up AGAIN; but I believe the CVT IS a design flaw. Personally, I feel they should have offered a typical hydraulic automatic transmission in the Trial Rated version, AND, they should offer the standard transmission with FDII. Why should I make such an inflammatory statement? Because along with the two Wranglers in our foursome today, there was a Ford Ranger 4x4 (nothing special, automatic), and that truck stuck with us on the entire trail, having NO problem climbing hills etc. Of course it does come equipped with a 6 cylinder, but 172 Hp should be enough to get up hills.

We did have the CVT reprogrammed as mentioned in another post on this thread, but even with the crawl ratio working (and it does work), once you stop on a steep grade, whether voluntary or involuntary (as in the CVT just doesn't want to go anymore), and you try to go again, if it does not sense - or cannot make - a wheel spinning, it again shuts itself down. I believe, with a hydraulic automatic, or standard transmission, you could at least force the wheels to move.

But hey, what do I know? Anyone else found this problem?

Well, I'm not sure if design flaw is quite the right way to say it, but yes the Patriot is somewhat limited compared to others. The 19:1 crawl ratio, while good , is still not quite enough on truly steep grades (above 40 - 45 degrees) for the amount of engine torque available.

What stops you from going up a slope should be loss of tire traction ,, not insufficient torque.

They either need more engine torque ( a diesel perhaps), or a lower ratio.

But still,,, it's still a pretty damn good little machine for the price.

I do somewhat agree. However, it's not the price that got me; after all, I could have gotten a Liberty with much more capability (of course I did not know that then) for about the same price, with incentives. It was the fuel mileage and looks that got me, and though the CVT plays a role in the mileage (not sure how), I believe it would be about the same with a "normal" automatic. I realize there are a LOT of variables in this discussion. I also realize that I will not be doing anything crazy with my Patriot off-road. But I would expect, at least, that it should go where the competition can. And yes, I have seen Fords, Chevy's, Toyota's, Etc. out there that are "comparable" to the Patriot in size, armor, clearance, blah, blah, blah. The trail we were on today, at its worst, was about as much as I'd expect to be able to do with a Trail Rated rig of this sort (with sensible options, like rock rails and maybe a 2" lift that doesn't require major mods).

I guess I'll just have to settle for less. But I can't wait to find a 5 speed Patriot owner who will hit these trails with me so I can see how that reacts. I whole heartedly agree that traction should be the limitation, and that's what I've been trying to get across. I should at least be able to break A tire loose. And again, I don't think it's the engine, I believe (and it makes sense) that the transmission is shutting itself down to prevent damage, but this is impractical for off-roading and should have been discovered in testing; thus, my point is, they should not have made the CVT the ONLY option with the FDII. I've tried it, and can attest that it cannot go where the competition can.

I agree with that. Oh, and by the way, not that it helps much, but I don;t think the problem is with the CVT portion of the transmission ot the transmission "shutting itself down" but it's the torque converter.

The torque converter, as you well know, sits between the transmission proper and the engine itself. It allows the engine to keep turning while the car is sitting still. It's like the clutch in an ordinary transmission system.

Once the car is moving the torque converter locks up and the CVT does all the real work shifting gear ratios and such. To lock up the torque converter the car needs to reach some minimum rolling speed.

As the car comes to a stop the torque converter is unlocked.

I guess when I think about it, it sounds like there is a design flaw after all.

The flaw is that even in those cases where the 19:1 crawl ratio be enough to keep on going without stalling the engine, the torque converter is not geetin enough torque through to start the car rolling.

In short, if it's going to be trail rated with a 19:1 ratio an 166 ft-lbs of engine torque available, the CVT needs a beefier torque converter.

If Chrysler/Jeep/Jatco engineers read these posts they really need to look into this. It is not just an inconvenience to the driver, there is a safety issue here concerning the dangers of getting stuck halfway up a long step slope or other hazardous situation and not being able to get the car moving again because of the torque converter.

There are three things that can stop you from going up a steep hill.

1) Not enough traction. The wheels spin. A possible solution would be to get better tires, or to put sand or some such down over the snow.

2) Not enough engine torque. The engine stalls. Get a bigger engine, a lower gear ratio, or smaller tires.

3) The clutch slips or the torque converter doesn't let enough torque reach the wheels. Get a better clutch, a lower gear ratio , smaller tires, or don't let the car stop moving (keep the momentum up).

The Patriot FDII appears to have a problem with number 3 where most other 4x4's do not. So what do you do when you want to go up a steep hill and you don't want to get stuck halfway up?

First of all there is the ESP traction control system. It has three modes of operation: normal, partially off, and completely off. The purpose of the traction control system is to eliminate or limit wheel spin. In the normal mode it will apply braking to a spinning wheel or even cut back on engine throttle, in the partially mode it will still apply anti-spin braking but will not mess with the engine throttle, and when completely off, of course it won't do anything.

The normal mode is best for going up low friction slopes like snow covered slopes. With deeper snow, mud or steeper slopes the partially off mode is better because you want to keep your momentum up and not get bogged down.

You especially don't want to find yourself halfway up the hill and have to come to a stop, because if you do there is that damn torque converter to trap you.

So what do you do if you ger stuck?

You can back up and try again or back up and just plain give up, Yhis is the least abusive to the vehicle method.

The torque converter gets locked out once the vehicle is moving, so the goal is to get the wheels turning enough to lock the TC out. One way is to load up the TC as mentioned earlier by one of the other posters (Jimmy TJ), step on the brakes, gun the engine, release the brakes, and hope to get enough of a jump to get rolling again.

One might also try putting the ESP into totally off mode. This will allow some wheel spin. As long as at least one wheel is turning fast enough the TC will lock up. Then while the wheel (or wheels) is turning quickly put the ESP back into partially off mode.

Remember, from normal mode to turn the ESP partially off, just push the button momentarily. To turn it completely off, hold the button down for at least five seconds. To quickly go from completely off to partially off will require two quick button pushes.

Tried it. All of it.

I agree, after the explanations of how the TC works, that the TC has everything to do with not being able to get going again once stopped on the hill. BUT, you have to take into consideration the CVT itself. On loose gravel there is NO reason 172hp and the TC shouldn't be able to make A tire break loose, if even a little; except that which drives the wheels - the Transmission. Remember, the CVT will flat out shut itself down to protect it from slipping internally and causing damage. Other transmissions will not do this. Hydraulics will keep trying until you break it, and we all know standards may be the best (unless you have a bad clutch).

This just sucks cause if I could have made it up the hills, I could have rolled with the other vehicles on the trails. Design flaws are meant to be learned from. I hope someone from Jeep reads these threads. It would be NICE that if someone DID, they would at least say so and let us know that our feedback is being taken seriously. Of course, we'll have to wait until they implement change which often takes a LOOOOONG time.

Ideal drivetrain: 2.4 CRD mated to a heavy duty 6 speed or traditional hydraulic tranny. That would kick ass.

As mentioned, I bought my Patriot for the looks, moderate off-road capability, and for the price point. Relatively good mileage was a trade up for the moderate off-road capability. I never wanted a Jeep that could go everywhere and don't expect my Patriot to compete with a built Wrangler. But a Ford Ranger?!?! Come on... I guess I'll just have to wait for the Liberty CRD and trade up.

Appreciate the input!

Tried it. All of it.
Ideal drivetrain: 2.4 CRD mated to a heavy duty 6 speed


Yes, I would LOVE that!

YES, I had a similar problem but I have the manual 5 speed Patriot, could this be related? I bought my Patriot in June and within the first week of owning it went up near Estes Park, Colorado to camp with friends. Going up the hill (forest access road) I was doing fine and then all of a sudden half way up the car simply wouldnt go anymore ( I was in first gear). The car slid down backwards, I tried again with esp partially off, and then with 4 wheel lock on. I'd start up the hill and it was as if the Patriot had a mind of it's own. The tires were not spinning and there were no big rocks. At this point the vehicles behind me (quite a few subarus, which was the car I had just traded in) all had to back up so I could go for more of a running start. I finally made it up to the campsite on my fourth try but was sooooooo disapointed! I dont know what the "grade" of the hill was but I have gone up there in a Honda Civic in the past. It was a hill that I wouldnt of even thought twice about. Called dealer blah, blah, blah took it in everything checked out fine. After reading my owners manual a bit I asked them if it could have to do with the esp and since I suggested it they then thought thats what it was. The service guy said the esp was doing exactly what it should do and that sometimes it can feel as if the car is possesed. Since then whenever I go up anything sort of steep I hold the esp in for the 5 seconds and turn esp off. I have gone back to the same hill (esp off) and zipped up with no problem. As I live in the Colorado mountains at 9250 I often drive up dirt hills similar to this one and have had no other problem going up with the esp on or off. To me right now it seems to be doing fine and I love my Patriot. I am hoping that it was a one time thing (new car and all) BUT I don't completely trust that this couldnt happen again. I am bringing it to Denver tomorrow for first oil change and am wondering if I should bring a copy of the service bulletin with me (even though I have the manual trasmission). Because I dont have the FD11 I'm wondering if this could even possibly be related to your problem?

The only problem I have is with the idea of the CVT "shutting itself down" I just can see how that happens. The design of the transmission is such that it is always engaged other than the TC or putting it in neutral. That is the main reason you can't tow a Patriot for any great distance. THe transmission might get into a bad ratio somehow, and then not be able to get out because it requires at least a little wheel movement to shift ratio, but the CVT design itself is a steel plate "push belt" system that can no more shut itself down than two meshed gear can decide not to let any torque not get through.

I guess though, it doesn't matter what causes the problem since indeed there does seem to be a problem,

Today I took my FDII Patriot out for romp up and down some overgrown logging trails in the Missouri Ozarks. I found that the ESP system on the FDII doesn't operate quit the way I described above. It seem all I can do is normal (full on) and off (partial off), and if I am in 4wd low it stays in crawl mode (partial off with extra low) no matter what.

I went down one section of one trail that had a 40-45 degree slope, and a little further along I found myself blocked by a tree down across the trail. If i had the time I think I could have a tow strap and maybe a block an tackle I had with me to clear the trail, but it was hot and humid and I had to get started back home before long. I backed up a little to a slightly wider spot in the trail, got turned around and headed back.

To that 45 degree spot in the trail that I now had to climb UP.

I made the mistake of starting up too slowly and got "stuck" about halfway up. From remembering your experience I knew it was hopeless to try going up anymore, so backed down a ways to where the slope wasn't quite so steep )maybe about 30 degrees). I made sure it was in 4wd low ( I wouldn't have made it this far if it hadn't been, but I made sure anyway) put my foot down on the floor and kept it there all the way up, and my sweet little Pat scratched and clawed amd made it's way all the way UP!!

I kinda have the feeling the ESP is to blame somehow beside the TC, but who knows?

Whatever it was, TC or CVT or whatever that had bogged down the first time, stayed locked up and up it went. A wheel started to spin a bit but the traction control won't let anything spin much.

The slope was dirt and gravel over limestone abut was covered with grass and weeds so wasn't as loose as plain gravel, but the grass made it more slippery.

In a sense I had learned something from having read your posts and for that I thank you.

I took my Patriot out for some fun in the mud and came across a shallow looking patch of water. I crawled into it at a steady 5mph and felt the sinking sensation. I quick put it into low gear and engaged the 4x4 lock. I was stuck in there because the esp would not give me wheel spin. I was feeling that desperate dumb feeling I usually get when I know I did something I should not have. I started thinking and I remembered about turning the esp off. I did so and before you knew it I was spinning my wheels, whipping out mud all over the place and kept my rpm under 3,000 and slowly got out of that mud! I have to say that experience was cool! But here is the question. While I was in low gear with 4x4 lock engaged and the esp on, when I accelerated I felt some of the wheel lock up as if the brakes had engaged. I say this because I swear I heard the breaks (like when you are going downhill and you ride the breaks to get you down safely). Is what I just explained what esp does?

DJ XS, I think you would make a great test pilot! Very observant and a well detailed report. I think there's an F-15 somewhere with your name on it!

I'm not kidding, I really think you might have found the answer.

Rule: If you expect to be in a situation where you'll need to have spinning wheels, switch off esp.

It sounds good to me!

Tried it! Still didn't work. Just gets to a point where it won't push the wheels. Sometimes you need a little tire spin to get that momentum going. I'm talkin about long hills BTW, maybe that's the clincher. But whatever. Just going to trade it in.

I think that the esp can put the brakes on.The way it was described to me was that if it thinks you are in trouble it can put the brakes on at least one wheel and reduce the power to the engine. At that point it feels like you have no control over what the car is doing.

You mention in num 2 below the use of smaller tires. I am completely lost in knowledge of getting power from a vehicle as I have never had a manual transmission vehicle. I like just the regular roads and automatic trans. I am driving a 2000 Dodge caravan with 14" wheels. I wanted 15" but, at the time, this was the only thing I could get. Can you briefly explain how or when a smaller tire would be an advantage ... maybe it will help with my ego!

There are three things that can stop you from going up a steep hill.

1) Not enough traction. The wheels spin. A possible solution would be to get better tires, or to put sand or some such down over the snow.

2) Not enough engine torque. The engine stalls. Get a bigger engine, a lower gear ratio, or smaller tires.

3) The clutch slips or the torque converter doesn't let enough torque reach the wheels. Get a better clutch, a lower gear ratio , smaller tires, or don't let the car stop moving (keep the momentum up).

The Patriot FDII appears to have a problem with number 3 where most other 4x4's do not. So what do you do when you want to go up a steep hill and you don't want to get stuck halfway up?

First of all there is the ESP traction control system. It has three modes of operation: normal, partially off, and completely off. The purpose of the traction control system is to eliminate or limit wheel spin. In the normal mode it will apply braking to a spinning wheel or even cut back on engine throttle, in the partially mode it will still apply anti-spin braking but will not mess with the engine throttle, and when completely off, of course it won't do anything.

The normal mode is best for going up low friction slopes like snow covered slopes. With deeper snow, mud or steeper slopes the partially off mode is better because you want to keep your momentum up and not get bogged down.

You especially don't want to find yourself halfway up the hill and have to come to a stop, because if you do there is that damn torque converter to trap you.

So what do you do if you ger stuck?

You can back up and try again or back up and just plain give up, Yhis is the least abusive to the vehicle method.

The torque converter gets locked out once the vehicle is moving, so the goal is to get the wheels turning enough to lock the TC out. One way is to load up the TC as mentioned earlier by one of the other posters (Jimmy TJ), step on the brakes, gun the engine, release the brakes, and hope to get enough of a jump to get rolling again.

One might also try putting the ESP into totally off mode. This will allow some wheel spin. As long as at least one wheel is turning fast enough the TC will lock up. Then while the wheel (or wheels) is turning quickly put the ESP back into partially off mode.

Remember, from normal mode to turn the ESP partially off, just push the button momentarily. To turn it completely off, hold the button down for at least five seconds. To quickly go from completely off to partially off will require two quick button pushes.

Smaller tire --> smaller overall diameter of the wheel+tire combo-->lower effective gear ratio.

Rule: If you expect to be in a situation where you'll need to have spinning wheels, switch off esp.

I just thought you might all enjoy this. A very thorough detailed look into what ESP is all about.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T9Y6z7cXxEE&mode=related&search=

Smaller tire --> smaller overall diameter of the wheel+tire combo-->lower effective gear ratio.

Exactly. Smaller tires are an advantage when you need more gear ratio, Smaller narrow tires are an advantage when you need a smaller footprint like when driving on ice or over hard wet slick clay where you want to dig in and not "float on top". Big wide tires are an advantage when climbing over logs, rocks and other obstacles smaller in diameter than the diameter of the wheel or when dring through deep mud or very deep snow where you want a bigger footprint so as to not sink in.

From Dawson experiences as well as others, it appears the Patriot has some sort of problem when it comes to extended steep terrain or some conditions requiring a bit of wheel spin. I can't say anyone knows for sure exactly what the cause of the problem is. It could be with the way the ESP works, or the CVT or the torque converter. A smaller tire would help a bit with torque and gear ratio. Not a whole lot, as Mr Sensible pointed out, the difference between a 28 inch tire and a 26 inch tire isn't all that much, and it would lower your clearance by an inch.

mountainannie ,

Yes. In fully on normal mode the ESP figures it's main job is to prevent wheel spin....no matter what. It will even kill the throttle if necessary. This is great if you are on ice, but not on steep hills, or deep thick mud.

Keep your ESP off if you want to claw your way up a steep hill.

Dawson,

I wonder if you could be so kind as to do one more test before you trade your Patriot in?

Go to one of those long slopes you know you can bog the Patriot down. Then, before starting turn the esp system COMPLETELY off. To do this, the vehicle must be staitonary, it will not go completely off while the vehicle is moving. Hold the button down until you hear a chime and the letters "ESPOFF" appear in place of the milleage numbers on your odometer. Now try yor climb. You should have no trouble at all getting wheel spin if you want it.

If this helps, good. If not, it will help narrow down the possibilities.

I saw another posting somewhere and the poster said that esp kept the tires from turning in soft mud. He really did a good job of describing the effect. It seems that ESP in trying to eliminate slippage actually can keep the car from moving if the conditions are very slippery such as being in gravel on a hill or in deep mud. He thinks turning off the esp in those situations can cure the problem.

Thanks, I really do think that is what happened the time I couldnt make it up. Next winter when I am about to go up a snowy mountain road I should stop first and turn the esp off? I find myself turning it off before going up any kind of a steep hill (most of which I'd probably be fine with it on) because I dont want to take the chance of stopping halfway up. Am I less safe with it off? Previously when I looked in the owners manual to learn more about the esp it was mentioned in more than one place and I didnt find the part that told you to hold the button in for 5 seconds to turn esp totally off on my first look.

mountainannie,

The esp/traction control system in the Patriot performs several functions.

It provides skid control. This helps keep the car from skidding out of control when you enter a turn too fast or turn the steering wheel too fast in slippery conditions.

It provides traction control for all four wheels. This keeps you from failing to supply torque to some wheel or wheels because some other wheel is spinning uselessy. Kinda like positraction.

It provides roll mitigation. If the car senses that you are going into a turn rapidly enough that the car might roll over it will cut throttle to slow the car down.

For everyday driving situations it is best to keep the esp on. You never know when you might have to do some unexpected swerve and the esp is there to keep things from getting out of hand and you losing control.

For many or most low traction conditions it is best to have the esp system partially on. This maintains traction controll but keeps the anti-skid chop throttle function from slowing the car just when you want to maintain headway. I am not sure what happens with the roll mitigation feature in this case, perhaps the owner's manual says. I can envision the roll mitigation feature shutting things down on steep or cambered slopes because it hinks there is danger of the car rolling over.

For some, perhaps rare, situations it is best to have the system completely off. Then it's just you and the moutain, mano a mano. Nothing will try to help save your life when you are not wanting it to be..nor will it be holding you back.

It's possible to switch back and forth between modes, but if yo want it completely off, you have to be stationary while you hold the button down, Going back on is no problem.

Thanks, JeepFan,

That's an excellent description of the ESP system and how to work with it. Much appreciated!:notworthy:

Here are some excerpts from a cars.com article which might provide some clues.

..." The rollover mitigation feature uses additional sensors and/or logic to determine a likely or actual rollover, then activates the stability system in an attempt to prevent it. Branded versions of the technology first appeared on Ford Motor Co. vehicles as Roll Stability Control, introduced by its Volvo subsidiary in the 2003 XC90 SUV and since incorporated into select SUVs sold under the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands. RSC includes an additional gyroscopic sensor that measures vehicle tilt on a vertical axis and takes action if the vehicle begins to lean. "We're the only system like that in the world," said Daniel Jarvis, Ford safety spokesman.

The Chrysler Group, General Motors, Ford subsidiary Land Rover and Volkswagen AG employ electronic stability systems with rollover mitigation that don't use a tilt sensor. The systems are claimed to intuit an impending rollover by analyzing data from the stability system's other sensors, which typically measure wheel rotation, lateral acceleration and yaw — rotation about the vehicle's vertical axis. (Fishtailing is an example of the yaw motion.)" ...

..."Chrysler Group's Electronic Roll Mitigation first appeared on the 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee, followed by the Jeep Liberty, Jeep Commander and Dodge Durango SUVs. ERM's operation is similar to GM's system in that it lacks a tip sensor.

"We have enough data about what the vehicle goes through physically prior to the rollover," said Cole Quinnell, Chrysler's engineering communications manager. "If the vehicle senses those conditions, the vehicle will provide a full burst of braking power to the correct wheel." "...

Perhaps in it's analysis of the vehicle's sensors the roll mitigation system gets confused by very steep slopes during hill climbs and is the root cause of Dawson's problem..?? This bears further investigation.

Actually, when I press and hold the ESP button, even rolling, it does turn off, but you have to do this after every time you start the vehicle, it will not stay turned off. Anyway, I did try the hills with the ESP off, no luck. I'll keep trying... Since I don't really like the new look of the Liberty, and there's no CRD in the near future, I'll be keeping my Pat for a while.

Cool. Mine won't. It will go into partial mode, but not completely off unless I am sitting still. Maybe if I was rolling slowly enough,,,

If you have it completely off you should definitely get wheel spin on loose surfaces.

The esp comes back on if you go over a certain speed (can't remember what speed, I think 15mph? 35mph?) It says you have to turn it off with the engine running but the car standing still so I've never tried to turn it all the way off while driving.

Actually, when I press and hold the ESP button, even rolling, it does turn off, but you have to do this after every time you start the vehicle, it will not stay turned off. Anyway, I did try the hills with the ESP off, no luck. I'll keep trying... Since I don't really like the new look of the Liberty, and there's no CRD in the near future, I'll be keeping my Pat for a while.

I still wonder if there is something amiss in your converter? I still have not been able to stop mine on anything here. Does anyone know of tests that could be done on Dawson's Tranny?

Is there anyone near Dawson that could do a side by side comparison? We all want to see this issue resolved. With some wranglers around to assist if need be (which we hope isn't necessary).

I agree with that. There are so many things that could be wrong. There could be isuffucient pressuse being developed by the transmission oil pump to allow the clutches and torque converter to work properly, here could be a faulty pressure regulator valve, there could be... well, the list goes on.

The main thing though is to first of all compare his FDII to another one. The pictures and experiences of other FDII don't match up, although I must admit there are a couple of others that are close.

Dawson, tell us where you live and maybe someone can come over to give you a hand. The way I see it we are all living the same experiences here. This is exactly why I joined this forum, to learn, live and have fun.

I'm in Aurora, CO. I've spoken online with a couple other Patriot owners on the forum, but no one with an FDII. STILL have yet to see another Patriot out on the trails and have only seen a handful on the roads.

I'd love to go out with another FDII and check it out.

Dawson,

While sitting there trying to get going up the hill, have you tried this?

Put your foot on the brake. Turn off the engine. Retart the engine. Put it back into 4wd and low if neccesary (with or without the esp on) and then floor it.

Also, do you have an oil cooler on your Pat?

I'm in Aurora, CO. I've spoken online with a couple other Patriot owners on the forum, but no one with an FDII. STILL have yet to see another Patriot out on the trails and have only seen a handful on the roads.

I'd love to go out with another FDII and check it out.

If I wasn't thousands of miles away I'd be there! I only wish I had scenery like what you've got out there too wheel in.

It's really time to change this thread's name and retire it.
Good stuff, but way far from the original post at this point.

drenglish,

Renaming it might be a good idea, but as to retiring it, I don't know.

There is good eveidence that at least some Patriots might have problem when attempting to climb long steep hills. It is not known whether this is a common limitation to ALL Patriots or not.

The problem has not been resolved.

Do you really want to just give up on it?

Agreed JeepFan!

I will try that the next time I get in the situation. I will also be in Detroit in two weeks where my buddy's Jeep shop is. Maybe, if I have time, I'll have him hook it up and see what he can find.

I will admit the name of the thread could have been chosen better, but I was pissed, as many would be in this situation. Try spending 25k for something that doesn't work! But, we're all cool now, no grudges here...

Hey Dawson...

Since you've taken yours out and bounced it around a bit...lemme ask you a question. You get a lot of noise from the front suspension when you're out playing?

I went out to a job site today, and was driving on some rough graded roads...most of the surface was 2-3" lava rock. Nothing major, a Hyundai could have made the trip. The rattling and popping coming from the passenger side front was loud. Like, hear it with the AC on and the windows up loud. I'd hear it occasionally from the rear, but most of the noise was coming from the front side.

Sounded like the wheel was "snapping" back into position from under tension...the only way I can think of to describe it. Sounded a lot like an old mustang I had with a loose shock tower.

I have noticed a sound similar to that of my old dodge pickup's helper springs coming from the front. Other than that, nothing much. Not sure what should be, if anything, moving around in the suspension that much. Does concern me sometimes. May want to take it in and just ask?!

Jeep Fan,
Much thanks for the info!:smiley_thumbs_up:

I have a couple of ideas, but I need someone like Dawson who has had considerable experience with the problem to test them out.

One idea has to do with it not being the torque converter or CVT at all, but something else like the Engine Control Unit shutting things down because of some sensor like oil temperature or maybe just bad software. On one site some guy was having a similar problem with a car that also used a Jatco, I think it was a Mitsubishi, The only thing that made it go away was to totally shut the car off and restart, thus "rebooting" all the computers.

Another idea has to do with the engine's torque curve and the torque converter stall speed. Engines develop their maximum torque at some RPM (sweet spot). I don't know what it is for the spark retarded Patriot engine in "crawl mode" but let's say it's 3000 rpm. The torque converter stall speed is the maximum speed the engine can turn if the car is not moving and the torque converter is in operation. All of the engines power in this case is just going into heating transmission fluid.

The TC is kinda like a slipping clutch. It transmits some torque to the wheels to get moving. but but slips enough to allow the engine to not quit running when the car is not moving or first starting out.

Once the car reaches some small forward speed, which again I do not know for the Patriot in crawl mode - but it's fairly small say two or three MPH, the torque converter clutch kicks in, locks the torque converter out and all engine power goes to the transmission and wheels. Just like a regular car with a non-slipping clutch.

The force required to hold the clutch against slipping, the belts against slipping, and to operate the hydraulics is provided by the transmission oil pump at the end of the torque converter spindle.

So let's say we are moving up the hill at a steady pace near the engines torque sweet spot and decide to let up on the gas for some reason. This could cause the TC to unlock and now we can't get the engine torque back up because it's sweet spot is above the TC stall speed. Lower engine RPMs can also make it harder to maintain enough transmission oil pressure to prevent slippage.

If my second idea is close to the truth it say the proper way to get up the hill is to put you foot on the floor while car is starting up the hill and still moving, and to keep it there all the way up and just let the crawl mode and traction control get you there....if you are going to get there.,,there are limits of course. The more weight you can get out of your car the less torque needed to climb, but still this is no Wrangler.

It does seem to get further if I can keep it to the floor, but usually I'm following someone so they can pull me up if needed. If they slow down, I slow down. But I will try the shut down thing.

I guess if at possible they need to have enough of a head start that you won't have to slow down because of them, at least until you get past the steepest part.

Here's one more idea, just in case you do get stopped. Take the car out of 4wd but keep it in low. Turn the ESP COMPLETELY off so that you see the ESPOFF letters appearing on the odometer in place of the mileage numbers. Give it gas. Instead of the torque to all four wheels it will be going ,ost;y to just the front wheels. This gives you your best chance for wheel spin. If at least one wheel spins fast enough the TC will lock up. While the wheel is spinning pit it back in 4wd and turn the ESP back on. Good luck!!

I went out to the parking lot, started my FDII, put my foot firmly on the brake, put it into drive, and stepped all the way down on the gas.

The engine peaked out at 2500 rpm, which would be the torque coverter stall speed.

This link shows torque and Horsepower curves for the 2.4 L engine (4B12) eingine in my Patriot FDII.

Peak torque out put is shown as 167 ft-lbs @ 4100 rpm

At the torque converter stall speed of 2500 rpm, available torque from the engine would be no more than about 147 ft-lbs.

Using my calculations from an earlier post and assuming a weight of 3800 pounds for the Patriot with a couple of occupants and some gear, we see that we should be able restart on about a 39 degree slope without the TC locked up. With the TC locked up we could continue to climb (don't lift your foot from the gas!) a slope of 45 deg.

This means that without a high stall speed torque convertor there is a region where we could get trapped, if we had to stop, between 39 and 45 degrees without being able to continue on even though the engine would be capable of it.

Inasmuch as this could be an unneccesarily hazardous situation to be in due only to the characteriistics of the torque converter and not the rest of the powertrain, I consider this to be a design flaw for off-road use.

It is, however, not to hard to alter the stall speed characteristics of torque converters, and some high-performance car oriented people do that. What we need is a torque converter stall speed closer to 3500 or more RPM for off-road use.

Ooops, I forgot the link:

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2006/18e_09.pdf

Thanks for the link, that is for the original engine developed in 2005 and it was first used in the Mitsubishi Outlander. The Outlander now uses a 220HP 6. Originally it was 140 HP and now it's 172, there are a number of features about the engine that got my attention. They originally used 0-20 weight oil, the current recommendation is 5-20, still a very light viscosity. The sparkplugs are iridium, and the tiiming gear is a "silent chain". Sounds good to me!

I think that 0-20 weight is a typo, and they meant 5-20. The torque and horsepowr curves to me look like they are the same or almost the same as today's GEMA engine.

Thanks, I was wondering about that. I like that they use a timing chain, that 60,000 mile rubber belt change has always been a pain (Subaru).

Here's a pretty good discussion of of transmission issues with regard to off roading:

http://www.oramagazine.com/pastIssues/0602-issue/finesse.asp

I am not sure exactly when my Pat was built. How can I tell? Assuming it was built before the off-road software mod, how can I tell if the software mod was performed prior to me picking up my Pat about 3 weeks ago?

Don't waste your time with details... Take it in and have them re-flash the computers. Takes them about a half hour and you'll be SURE you have the latest updates. I recommend this for EVERY ONE.

Don't waste your time with details... Take it in and have them re-flash the computers. Takes them about a half hour and you'll be SURE you have the latest updates. I recommend this for EVERY ONE.

Anyone who is considering doing this might want to check out what I went through...:

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21286&postcount=19

Anyone who is considering doing this might want to check out what I went through...:

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21286&postcount=19

Would you recommend this to people who are getting the 2008?

I would think anything being built going forward should be programmed correctly.

Anyone who is considering doing this might want to check out what I went through...:

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21286&postcount=19

Sounds to me like it's your dealership that's broken! I went in, asked for the service manager, sat down in his office and told him I wanted it fixed. He looked up the info, we scheduled a time (the next day) and I had it done.

I know it may not do anything, but if they give you a hard time, tell them you'll never consider buying anything from them or recommend them to anyone if they don't take care of their customers. I mean, seriously, they don't need you to say you have that problem, they can just put it in their paperwork that you did.

Sorry you had issues.

My dealer's service people suck, plain and simple.. You only have to read my posts to see that. They argue everything with me.

quasimodem51
The build date is located on the driver door. Open the door and there will be a sticker on the side of the door below the latch. I'm going by memory but that should put you in the ballpark.

One of the issues you are experiencing is HP/Torque loss due to altitude (being in Colorado). There are several passes in CO that I need to put my Tacoma in low range, not because of the low traction, but because of the power loss and grade (10,000 foot +).

So, I would recommend using 91 octane when you go out on the trail. The Patriot has very aggressive fuel mapping and will increase to maximum spark advance with the 91 fuel, increasing torque and performance on trail grades.

Another solution is to use left foot braking (something you should do all the time on technical terrain regardless) and when you are stopped on a grade and need to continue, hold down the brake pedal and raise the engine RPM to around 2,000, then in one motion, release the brake while pressing the accelerator down fully.

The Patriot will require a slight modification in traditional driving style on very steep terrain, where you will use the vehicles exceptional stability to select the line that permits maintaining momentum and engine RPM (hence torque).

I found the Patriot to be a blast to drive on the trail, allowing very different line selection and using it's compact dimensions as an advantage.

Hope this helps :)

Scott,

As usual, VERY good advice sir. Thank you.

Also, I know it's not always possible to not stop, but it is advisable to keep on moving once you get started up the steepest portion. The highest torque band of the engine is above 3000 rpm, peaking around 4100-4400, and the stall speed of the torque converter is a little over 2000.

As long as you keep it going the torque converter clutch keeps the TC locked out and you can operate above the stall speed. Once you stop, it may not be all that easy to get it moving again.

I guess you could write a book about choosing the best line for different vehicles. Got any quick tips?

AMCNUT, thank you.

Scott,

I guess you could write a book about choosing the best line for different vehicles. Got any quick tips?

Line selection can vary greatly by terrain and vehicle type, but as a general rule for the Patriot, you are going to want to pick a line that minimizes cross axle or the limits of available brake over clearance. Use the vehicles tight turning radius and stability to select a route that maintains momentum. This may mean going higher on the hill side (camber) to avoid large rocks or ravines/gullies on the erosion side of a track.

Approach and departure angles are very good, as well as slope stability. Use those tools to your advantage.

Remember, once a tire leaves the ground the traction control system can engage, and rob available drive torque. Unlike a LSD or locker in the differential, traction control can remove up to 50% of available drive torque with the brakes (which are stopping a spinning wheel).

I remember one hill in particular when I was testing the patriot that was slick mud and lots of erosion. Even the Rubicon that was with us slipped quite a bit and needed to adjust the line and engage the rear locker. The Patriot was nimble and stable enough to take a higher line and thread the erosion line (by staying on both sides of the V ), and made the hill clean, without a stop.

There are times you may not want traction control to activate, so just press the brake pedal lightly (which cancels TC) and allows full wheel spin. Great for mud.

Fun little machines. I miss driving them (though I just spent a few days near Tahoe with the new KK, which is also a great machine.)

Another quick note. For the Patriot, the CVT2 is the only real option for technical off-road use. The manual has no low range and the clutch would suffer a quick death if used in slow-speed tracks with rocks, etc. This is not meant to dig on the manual (I like manuals because of the driver control), but the FDI is not the right choice for maximum trail performance from the MK platform.

In addition, once on the trail, you should immediately shift into L and use it for all reasonable trail speeds. The CVT is designed to still ramp the ratio to allow speeds well over 45 mph. L changes the ratio calibration to maintain a higher engine RPM and maximum compression braking. I cannot think of any situations off-highway where selecting drive would be an advantage over L.

I think there is a LSD available for the Caliber (maybe the SRT model), which would make a vast improvement in trail performance by limiting TC activation.

Hi Scott,

I'm not getting the trail rated model, basically because I'm out on the Atlantic coast and really will not have much, if any, chance for heavy duty rock climbing. My automatic will have the autostick feature where you can manually shift through the gears if you wish, so you can stay in first gear. I know the gearing is not as high as the trail rated, but I was wondering if you had a chance to try it out and what you thought of it.

Scott,

I can see how using the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the gas is a very important driving technique.

I guess if one is caught having to stop part way up a hill they could get going again by lightly tapping or touching the brake pedal.

Foot touching brake turns off traction control. Traction control off allows some wheel to break loose and spin. Spinning wheel allows torque converter to lock up. Torque converter locked up allows engine to rev up beyond torque converter stall speed. Taking foot off brake re-engages traction control and if you are lucky you get a little bit of forward momentum going.

So basically what you do is keep your right foot down on the gas and touch the brake pedal a few times with your left foot, right?

Seems kinda strange, doesn't it, using the brake pedal to get going.

Hi Scott,

I'm not getting the trail rated model, basically because I'm out on the Atlantic coast and really will not have much, if any, chance for heavy duty rock climbing. My automatic will have the autostick feature where you can manually shift through the gears if you wish, so you can stay in first gear. I know the gearing is not as high as the trail rated, but I was wondering if you had a chance to try it out and what you thought of it.

For most trails in the east (outside of the OHV parks), what you are buying will be just fine. For someone living in Colorado, Arizona, etc., where they plan to use the Patriot on the trail (off of graded roads), then get the Trail Rated.

Scott,

I can see how using the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the gas is a very important driving technique.



Yes, for many reasons, principally chassis control in rocks and ruts, where you want the vehicle to drop off of an obstacle with minimal suspension compression (which affects running ground clearance).

There are times when you will want more wheel speed, like sand and some mud. That is when light pressure on the brake pedal (or testing the track without 4wd lock mode, which remaps the TC calibration). I preferred the left foot braking technique.

Hope this helps :)

Scott,

I can see how using the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the gas is a very important driving technique.

In our country this is basic drivers-ed for the kids learning to drive. It is interesting that this may be a regional base of knowledge. This is one of the best forums I have read to assist folks in the finer points of off-roading. You all need to come west and play in our hills, plains and deserts.

It is interesting that this may be a regional base of knowledge.

Different regions have different requirements. I like the idea of sharing knowledge and learning the finer points.

In the north when it snows, everyone seems to know how to deal with it. If a column of cars comes to a dip in the road (perhaps to go over a creek), the driver in front will start dwon to make his attempt on the snow or ice, and the guy behind will just wait till the first guy either makes it or gets so stuck he can't move. Then he takes his turn (or changes his mind turns artound and goes back home :-) ).

That way if the first guy has to back up and take another try or maneuver or something he's got plenty of room, and if he gets stuck you can see where he is before you plan your line.

Around here no one knows anything about snow, and they play train at a dip. Everyone follows the leader and when he gets stuck the whole column is stuck. If you try to stop at the top to wait your turn the guy behind you honks his horn and goes blasting around while perhaps giving you a one finger salute.

No patience.

The jee[ Patriot is a blast to drive in lots of different conditions, but it is different and requires different kinds of technique to use at it's fullest capability. One should know his equipments limitations as well as it's strengths.

The right tool for the right job. Anyone can crack a walnut with a sledgehammer.

We don't have much in the way of rocks here (Missouri) so I like to hear more about rock technique. Neither do we have the really heavy snows like up north so I like to hear more about snow technique. On the other hand we do have a lot of woods and logging trails (with creeks). Some of those "logging trails" are more like ATV trails, very narrow gaps between trees, tight little turns, logs to crawl over, brush to deal with. You don't need a heavy winch all that often, but a strong little portable or just a block and tackle with a lot of strong rope and maybe an extra pulley block can come in handy to clear a trail of a log (some kind of saw is good too or fallen boulder.

There isn't a lot of room to maneuver or back up , and a vehicle mounted winch just pulls thing toward you, not OFF the trail. If you can't turn around you are going to find driving in reverse for any distance down one of those narrow trails is no picnic.

The Patriot is light enough (just a little over a ton and a half) that even a light weight portable winch can be used to good effect if the car itself needs to be pulled, and a portable can pull from any direction. Heck, with a small two ton winch I can pick the whole car up if need be.

The Patriot is also limited in torque compared to the other bigger rigs, so the less weight you carry and the more you can do with the weight you do carry, the better off you are.

Thanks for the info, Scott. Much appreciated!

Dawson, check your piping. I had a similar issue with my KJ on my second trip to Paragon Off Road park in it(fourth week owning it). The week before I was up there went over a few rock gardens and I flattened the pipe leading to the exhaust (did not know it at the time) I drive the KJ home, and back and fourth to work all week. The next weekend I went to do some 4 wheeling and noticed a serious lack of power, I got stuck going up a hill that I was able to get up the week before. After some investigation the exhaust was getting backed up into the engine. This caused the computer to compensate by cutting power. It may just be worth taking a second look underneath. I would highly doubt that the CVT itself would cause the lack of power especially with the crawl ratio that it is supposed to offer

I'll take a look!

I'm going back to MI this weekend and hope to have my friend check it out with StarScan. Hoping he can turn the DRLs off in the process.

Dawson - Sorry to hear that the Pat failed on the hill. I took mine up a steep street hill today and thought of your posting here.. The hill was between 30 and 45 degrees and it made it fine. Of course, this wasn't rocks but it didn't really have any problem whatsoever. I wonder if it's indeed a problem with your particular Jeep -- better get it checked out.

G

DAWSON: what re-programming did you have the dealership do?

There is a TSB out there for the CVT in vehicles made before May 07. But I would recommend everyone have this done as soon as you purchase your vehicle. Tell them you want the computers re-flashed. They should understand and it should only take a half hour or so. You should NOT be charged for this.

What did you get, or are you getting?

I did get an 07 FDI Pat that I got in July.

I'm now looking for any thing to get its off-road capability up; but moreso on the clearance and armor.

Where are you at? Manual or CVT? Clearance wise, you may only get another inch or two. Two inches will bring you to one inch over the Trail Rated version. It's a pretty fun rig off road.

BTW, when was your Patriot made? Check out the sticker on driver's side door jamb area I think is where I saw it.

The sticker only says April. The TSB says it is for Patriots before April 21st.

The customer service person I emailed from a link on Jeep's webpage flat out refuses to tell me how to find out what day in April my Patriot was made, to find out if the TSB is related to me or not.

The customer service person I emailed from a link on Jeep's webpage flat out refuses to tell me how to find out what day in April my Patriot was made, to find out if the TSB is related to me or not.

Hmmm... you got a bad apple. They are either ignorant to their policy or lying.

All the rest of us have done is email them and ask for the build date and options list from our VIN numbers. I got mine back in less than 48 hours.

http://www-5.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/index.jsp?screenName=customer&country=us&emailUrl=goToEmailForm%28%27R%27%29

That's where I sent the email. You could call them also.

I would also recommend you just schedule an appointment and have it re-flashed regardless. 'Cause ya just never know...

Hi Dawson, any update on the situation? I'm curious because I'm very close to ordering my Patriot and the last question I need answered is whether to go manual or CVT. I'm already reluctantly replacing my old Cherokee, which has never let me down in snow, mud, or climbing any hill (it's an automatic, I just put it in first and let the goat take over!).

Dawson, next time try reading your owners manual first. Turn off the ESP at least partially or fully if needed and the FD-II climbs great.

With the ESP on the instant the system detects wheel slippage it cuts back on the throttle irregardless hoe much you floor it.

Dawson, next time try reading your owners manual first. Turn off the ESP at least partially or fully if needed and the FD-II climbs great.

With the ESP on the instant the system detects wheel slippage it cuts back on the throttle irregardless hoe much you floor it.

I think he tried all that. I think his car is putting out insufficient torque, I am not sure why, It could be because of the altitude. Maybe something is wrong in the altitude compensation system. Maybe something is partially obstructing exhaust or intake. Maybe something else.

The torque converter stall speed at normal altitude and engine adjustment is somewhere around 2100 to 2400 rpm. What this means is that if you hold the brake pedal firmly so that the car can't move and tromp down hard on the gas the engine won't rev any higher tham that speed, the torque converter stall speed. With a higher torque engine it will rev somewhat higher. With reduced torque it won't rev that high.

Dawson's car won't rev above 1800.

If it's an altitude pronlem, using premium fuel might help. The cars electronics is very aggressive at mapping spark advance,

Shutting the ESP partially off will maintain traction control, but eliminate the car messing with his throttle. Turning it ALL the way off will eliminate traction control.

not to be judgmental or anything but I think the capabilities of the vehicle are there. Have you owned other 4x4s, lifted and such, locked up, or is this your first. My fist 4x4 was a Wrangler and step by step I upgraded it. First a 4" lift and took it to Moab and took the Poison Spider Trail with little 27" BFG Long Tail tires, and it did it with no lockers. Then I put some 33s on it then a 2" body lift after that and then 35 BFG Mud terrains K/M. The point I'm getting at is you have to learn your vehicle and gain experience as you go. You gotta wheel it stock until you get it stuck a few times and then upgrade. And after you learn to use "Finesse" as you wheel you can make a unlocked 4x4(if you can call it that) do alot. My friend took Poison Spider with me and another time and he had his Wrangler just had a 4" lift and 33s and a Detroit locker in the rear and he broke a axle, then after we fixed that he rolled it. So just becasue you have the purpose built rig with all it's capabilites you need experince behind the wheel off-road to get up climbs, I went up climbs in Moab with ease with open diffs that he took forever getting up. So that's all I'm saying

You might consider changing the title of the post to something like "Resolving FDII/CVT problem"

I think he should sell it. Why keep it if you hate it? Get a Liberty if you want Haul A$$ power. The Pat isn't for heavy offroading, trail rated or not.

Im not a 4-wheeling kind of guy....thats why I got a front wheel drive sport...don't much about it...but is a 4 cylinder engine...is it meant for heavy 4-wheeling?

...is it meant for heavy 4-wheeling?

No, not at all.

I think that he got his problem resolved by getting his computer modules reflanshed per a service bulletin. I think a lot in the thread here are beating a fictional horse.

Think about it.

Jeep spends millions of dollars developing th Patriot for a trail rating, and they put the skid plates on the FDII...and you are saying it can't even climb a fairly steep hill. Do you think they forgot to test it???

Or maybe you got the lemon. It happens.

Here's that technical trail report which shows what yours SHOULD be capable of:

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/reviews/patriot/index.htm

That was a reassuring read.........

So, I had the issue as well, but when I started over at the bottom after turning off the traction control, NO problem. I take mine over and under some steep hills and no issues so long as I leave the traction control off. It felt like I lost all power when I left it on, I would have the petal on the floor and engine would not even rev and the RPMs stayed at idle. I did have to back down the hill in order to get the traction control to fully turn off that could have been the issue all along as well.

I came across this video... It appears this guy had the same problem, FDII as well, just not enough power to push the vehicle up this steep slope (video never does the slope justice)... Granted he says his trunk is full :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6WJQu8F4zw

I have had the same problem numerous times over the last few years, and over varied terrains.

The first time was on a 45 degree slope, which is pretty steep. Halfway up the jeep went into throttle control and stopped providing power to the wheels( or provided very little and sensed that a load that it perceived it could not overcome).

I know it's odd, but with the electronics it is better to describe these situations as though the jeep is a person, because that is how it reacts.

One time I tried to go over a small round rock, maybe 5", it did the same thing.

During my last trip I was in a level snow field. I have 30" BFG KM's (lifted), so traction and clearance is rarely a problem. Sitting in a six inch deep snow field, parked. Myself and the family went off to go play in the snow. When we returned, I tried going forward but the jeep did the same thing as on a steep hill: throttle control with no wheel spin. It appears as though when the jeep senses an opposing force, whether it be gravity from a hill, a rock or an obstacle such as snow that the tire has to turn against, it stops producing power to the wheels.

I believe that despite the comments by careless and/or ignorant posters, this is not a limitation but a severe design flaw. Sitting in a level, shallow fluffy snow field , one should be able to get the tires moving!

This is the best analogy I can think of: imagine you buy a budget sports car, go to the track and find that you can't go faster than 60 mph. When you start posting on the sports car forum, people start coming out of the woodwork saying, but its a cheap sports car, you can't expect it to go fast, its not expensive enough.

I think this is what frustrates a LOT of JEEPPATRIOT users. This is one of many posts I've seen with this issue. They know they have a serious problem with their jeep in regards to power at the wheels cutting off completely, but people don't take their issues serious.

In the end though, what needs to happen is for Jeep(not us) to figure out what is terribly wrong with the FDII(at least) and issue a recall on all of the Patriots so that owners like Dawson can have a vehicle that doesn't get stuck trying to drive through an overgrown parking lot.

I"ve experienced this problem as well and videotaped it at well, best way to get around it, if you find yourself stuck, is cycle in and out of the FDII mode, which usually gets the wheels spinning again, then once they are going pop it back into FDII mode, this has worked all the times i've tried it.

The Patriot has a bit of a schizophrenic personality. It has ABS, and ESP and a traction control system designed to prevent wheel spin or cut power in the case of a skid. There are times, however, where you WANT some wheel spin and do NOT want power to be cut.

Sometimes you need to be in at least partial off ESP to avoid having throttle control power cut. An example would be going up a steep snow covered hill. You need to get a running start and keep going all the way up. To have the ESP system decide there was excessive wheel spin and cut power to avoid a spin out would not be a good thing to happen half way up.

If you have to churn through deep mud you need a LOT of wheel spin (and good mud tires). To have the traction control system stopping this from happening works against you. It's best to have the ESP all the way off. Sometimes you can just cycle in and out of FDII mode a few times and get through the rough spots.

Another problem that sometimes occurs is due to the torque converter stall speed being around 2000 rpm or a little over. This is lower than the engines max torque RPM of around 4000 rpm. What happens is you start up a hill, but have to stop for one reason or another when you are part way up, and then can't get going again. No matter how hard you press on the gas pedal the engine won't go over 2100 rpm. To overcome this situation you need to get enough wheel spin that the torque converter clutches can lock up. Either turn the ESP all the way off, or cycle in and out of FDII mode a couple of times. Another thing you can do is while keeping your right foot on the gas pedal use your left foot to tap the brake pedal a few times pedal. If the car thinks you are stopping it will go into ABS mode instead of traction control mode.

ABS mode is designed to NOT let the wheels stop turning. Traction control tries to prevent the the wheels from spinning. IF going in and out of ABS mode by tapping the brake pedal allows enough momentary wheel spin you can get going again.

The Patriot is a wonderful car for what it does and the cost, but you have to understand the various systems, their strengths and weaknesses, in order to get the most performance and enjoyment from it.

5 weeks ago, and two days after I put 4 new, highly rated Goodyear Triple-tred tires on my '07 Jeep Patriot CVT Freedom Drive II, I turned down a LEVEL dirt road covered with about 4 inches of soft snow. NO ICE. I went about 40 yards, and lost traction. I put the car in 4WD lock, tried low gear. NOTHING worked. I could NOT go forward. I had NO traction. I finally put the car in reverse and was able to back out of the street. Very embarrasing. A couple weeks later, I found that my previously good brakes were now down to bare metal, and had damaged the rotors. I wonder if the traction control was screwed up, and actually impeded my progress down the road. And burned the brakes in the process. The dealership claims they have NO test for the traction control.

I wish I could turn it off permanently, but they tell me there is no way to do that either!

The CVT is great on the road, just floor it and it's like driving a Chainsaw heheee!

I put on some Jokohama tires, better tread and was all over some hills with 4 inches of snow and ice this weekend, no problems at all, very proud of what my FDII was capable of.

Various other vehicles in the same area where having issues.

I have had the same problem numerous times over the last few years, and over varied terrains.

The first time was on a 45 degree slope, which is pretty steep. Halfway up the jeep went into throttle control and stopped providing power to the wheels( or provided very little and sensed that a load that it perceived it could not overcome).

I know it's odd, but with the electronics it is better to describe these situations as though the jeep is a person, because that is how it reacts.

One time I tried to go over a small round rock, maybe 5", it did the same thing.

During my last trip I was in a level snow field. I have 30" BFG KM's (lifted), so traction and clearance is rarely a problem. Sitting in a six inch deep snow field, parked. Myself and the family went off to go play in the snow. When we returned, I tried going forward but the jeep did the same thing as on a steep hill: throttle control with no wheel spin. It appears as though when the jeep senses an opposing force, whether it be gravity from a hill, a rock or an obstacle such as snow that the tire has to turn against, it stops producing power to the wheels.

I believe that despite the comments by careless and/or ignorant posters, this is not a limitation but a severe design flaw. Sitting in a level, shallow fluffy snow field , one should be able to get the tires moving!

This is the best analogy I can think of: imagine you buy a budget sports car, go to the track and find that you can't go faster than 60 mph. When you start posting on the sports car forum, people start coming out of the woodwork saying, but its a cheap sports car, you can't expect it to go fast, its not expensive enough.

I think this is what frustrates a LOT of JEEPPATRIOT users. This is one of many posts I've seen with this issue. They know they have a serious problem with their jeep in regards to power at the wheels cutting off completely, but people don't take their issues serious.

In the end though, what needs to happen is for Jeep(not us) to figure out what is terribly wrong with the FDII(at least) and issue a recall on all of the Patriots so that owners like Dawson can have a vehicle that doesn't get stuck trying to drive through an overgrown parking lot.

I have to agree. it's happened to me a couple times already and i've tried the brake while pressing the gas and nothing. went out last weekend with fort bragg military jeepers and i tried to go up a small hill and the patriot just would not give me power. one of the guys told me to back up a little and give it more gas. i was thinking to myself "i have the gas pedal floored!" it was quite embarrassing! there is something definitely wrong with it. i had esp full off which shouldn't have limited the rpms and tires spinning but it did. If i could of kept the tires spinning i would have made it up the hill

Since my FDII can't even navigate 2 inches of mud or 5 inches of soft snow without major tire spinning, I'm inclined to believe it when people say they can't get up a 35 deg inclined hill. The car stinks. It's not my driving.

How's that for waking up a 5 year old thread...

Sent from my PC36100 using AutoGuide.com App

Since my FDII can't even navigate 2 inches of mud or 5 inches of soft snow without major tire spinning, I'm inclined to believe it when people say they can't get up a 35 deg inclined hill. The car stinks. It's not my driving.

This is my 200' driveway with about 6" of snow,
Didn't need to engage 4x4 at the time.
http://pbr235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/house%20in%20Natural%20bridge/Diana-20111229-00033.jpg?t=1325615048

Road to one of my hunting spots,
Rarely need to engage 4x4 on it
http://pbr235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00203-20100515-1337.jpg
If your having problems with 2" mud and 5" snow, something is wrong

it's called if you don't have a/t tires or other off road type of tires and your using the stock tires you may have tire spin. My pat has gone through snow that deep no problem on stock FDI tires which are the Firestone affinity's. I haven't had an issues with major traction loss.

My theory is that in order to protect the drivetrain, jeep has coded plenty of torque management in. A tuner can probably take most of it out, they just need to be properly motivated. If anyone in colorado is motivated they can try mac auto in parker. I'm sure that they've never played with a patriot but if you ask them about removing tm sofyware from a jeep they'll be able to tell you what is possible.

The Patriot is still one of a few vehicles that make my hill in winter.

I have had no problems with my FDII

some more pics where pat didnt have a problem
dont see how my pat can handle the following without so much as a hick up
unless something is wrong with either vehicle or diver error

and when snowed in like this, i dont even have to shovel myself out
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00143-20100226-0825.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00145-20100307-1403.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00202-20100515-1336.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00206-20100515-1415.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00202-20100515-1336-1.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee160/terasec/IMG00223-20100614-0716.jpg

"Angry Allen" has or had a bad engine if I recall correctly. As his name implies, he comes on here to rant to all of us that are happy with our Jeeps every few months. I'm not sure it is doing any good for anyone since they are discontinuing it after this year anyways, and most of the people on this forum already own a Patriot... sucks he got a lemon though.

My FDI 5-Speed is Great in the Snow, Mud or whatever else I throw at it... But Looking back when I picked her up I should have opted to get the FDII Trail Rated CVT one... 5-Speed is getting a little old driving back and forth to work everyday. :)

I am so glad I got a manual trans right now.

I am so glad I got a manual trans right now.

+1 Billion

I rented a 2011 Patriot with the CVT while I was in LA this week... Yuck

No complaints about my CVTII, here. But I would prefer a slick 6speed auto...

I really enjoy having a CVT. I have driven manuals for years, and while they are great fun, I grew tired.

110k miles on mine and still not used to the cvt.
No performance issues.
Just matter of preferance.
Maybe I am old fashion. But still believe certain cars should be manual.
Sports/persormance cars, small engine cars, and 4x4's should be manual.

Also I'm probably the only one who doesn't know how to drive auto.
When tranny is ready to shift, do you help it by easing off the gas? Or continue givIng it gas and let auto tranny do its thing?

110k miles on mine and still not used to the cvt.
No performance issues.
Just matter of preferance.
Maybe I am old fashion. But still believe certain cars should be manual.
Sports/persormance cars, small engine cars, and 4x4's should be manual.

Also I'm probably the only one who doesn't know how to drive auto.
When tranny is ready to shift, do you help it by easing off the gas? Or continue givIng it gas and let auto tranny do its thing?

I'll agree with you...to a point.
The FDII would be manual if I had one, the FDI maybe 50-50 but my 4x2 is auto simply because of how I use the unit. I pull into a mill or chemical plant and maybe stop and creep forward 1000 yards 5-7 times before I leave to go to the next one. All these places have a 10 kph speed limit enforced by plant security and clutching that would get old, fast.

CVT doesn't shift, so no need to do anything but let the tranny do its thing. It will find the ratio.

The only time I need to use the slap shift is if I'm on a long stretch at around 60 kph...pulling it from D into 6 lowers the RPM.

And, at least once a day, as I pull out of the back roads onto the highway I shift it, wind it out. That 170+ horsepowers sure can motivate the Patriot at 6,000 rpm. Might not pull any stumps out but up in the revs there is lots of giddy up and go.

i also love the CVT2....it's a bit strange in the beginning but you get used to it after a while. works great under all conditions..if you now how to use Her.

Still loving my CVT2L FDII. No complaints. Works great off road for what I need.

CVT is like dating a red headed woman.
If you can figure out the differences and use them to your advantage...its amazing!

The CVTII got me up a steep hill offroad yesterday, so still no complaints here. It does make a bit more noise offroad with the extra load on it, but it hardly breaks a sweat barely going over 2200rpm most of the time.

We went out with a group this last weekend and ran Pole Hill up by Estes Park. Wet, muddy, snowy and rocky.

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=696&pictureid=5609

Nice weather for national "Go Topless Day".

The CVT did fine. We made it through all the major obstacles we tried without any help.


CVT is like dating a red headed woman.
If you can figure out the differences and use them to your advantage...its amazing!

Agreed.

That picture looks fun, something I would try in my jeep