today I stopped at a chrysler dealer and in the doorway I met a mechanic so I asked him about his opinion on the first oil change at 1000km.He just smiled and said to me that it's wasted money.All the engines before they are installed in the vehicles get lots of exercise and one should just follow the manufacturers manual to be on the safe side

Time to go to another dealership and talk to another mechanic! :wow:

Ok, so they "exercise them" (Not exactly sure what that means?) - If they crank it over to check to make sure it works, drive it onto the lot and onto the carriers, off the carrier onto the dealer's lot, that means little metal chips and fillings do wear and move around. However, do they change the oil and filter before selling them? NOT!

First oil change is important. Oil and filter are cheap! About $8-10 for 5 quarts of oil and another $4-$5 for a filter and 1/2 hour of your time in the driveway for a do it yourselfer!

I can only assume that a significant amount of research has gone into this by engineers around the world to determine what needs to be done for a new engine.

I know that the owner's manual states moderate varying engine speed for first few hundred miles, then go to either Schedule A or B, which is either 3000 or 6000 miles for first indicated oil change. The Corporation, who is actually liable if something breaks while under warranty does not recommend changing oil or the filter until 3000 miles!

Whereas, early oil changes are something we are all somehow aware of, since we heard it somewhere, so it is something we should do because somehow we know more than the auto companies? Not very exact!

Did you know that an oil filter was an option as recently as the 1957 Chevy smallblock V8? Standardly, the motor did not have an oil filter. Granted, that is perhaps one of the reasons that expected motor lifespan was only 100k miles for all cars of that era. IIRC, Chrysler pioneered oil filtration, and then the spin on cartridge oil filter, back when their slogan was "Excellence in Engineering"

By "exercise" there is surely a test start procedure at the GEMA engine plant in Dundee MI, followed by running it at certain rpms for a certain length of time, with a computer controlling the test cycle and all sorts of sensors checking temps on all 4 cyls, exhaust temps, ignition voltage/current, alternator output, etc. Then, it is crated and shipped to Belvidere for installation. It would be exceedingly expensive to make it, ship it, then install a motor on the assembly line, and finally stick a key in at the end, and.....nothing...........

The Megafactories shows on National Geographic channel, as well John Ratzenbergers "Made In America" and others, are educational on how stuff is made.

No you don't need to change oil early. I did at around 750. Makes me feel better. Btw car companies are only concerned that the vehicle have no problems until after warranty and you are happy enough to buy another of their products. They do not care if the engine is still going strong at 250,000 miles or 400,000 km. You may.

Do what ever makes you feel comfortable right? No one will force you or twist your arm to change the oil early - it's just something that a lot of people like to do. The topic is almost as heavily debated as the chicken vs. the egg

I did the "extra" oil change at 1000 km. It might not have done any good but it also didn't do any bad and it was cheap insurance.

Change your oil & filter at 100 miles, 700 miles, 2000 miles, 3000 miles, then every 3000 after that.
Do this or you will regret the day you were born !

ok,today I changed my oil,next change will be around 3K

Out of curiosity, where is the oil filter located on the 2.4L engine?
Does anyone have pictures of the filter and its location?
Is it easily accessible (get to it and change it without ending up with "sludge arm")? I ask because my V6 Dakota has the filter in a location that makes it near impossible (without using a lift) to unscrew the filter without ending up with an entire arm soaked in oil.

Out of curiosity, where is the oil filter located on the 2.4L engine?
Does anyone have pictures of the filter and its location?
Is it easily accessible (get to it and change it without ending up with "sludge arm")? I ask because my V6 Dakota has the filter in a location that makes it near impossible (without using a lift) to unscrew the filter without ending up with an entire arm soaked in oil.


Curious myself, I went out for a look and it is located right under the Riot. I added 2 pictures in the Technical Photo folder (hope I did that right). Looks like it is an easy change, however, you may still get hit with oil since it is vertical.

Cheers!


http://www.jeeppatriot.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=259

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=260

Just got mine changed at 4500 kilometres. I think I am going to start changing my own from now own though. I never realy trust other people doing things to my vehicle. I always do my own maitenance, even replaced my old transmission. Even dealers have a tendancy to overtighten everything.

Anybody have any experience with these:

http://www.fumotovalve.com/ (http://www.fumotovalve.com/)

I hear good things and a lot of people on the Caliber forums seem to like them. I am not sure if it will stick out past the skid plate. Fram also makes a similar item called the Sure Drain. It might be better suited as it is not as long.

I have the Frame Sure Drain on my Ford Explorer. It works great. Just replace the cap/plug on the vehicle with theirs. It has a one way valve that is opened when you screw on the flexible plastic hose, directs it right where you want it. Especially helpful on mine, as the plug/drain is located to the side.

I changed my oil yesterday for the first time at 2500,

the dealer was giving me flack, to early, no use..waste of money, etc...

I will go back at 5k and get on the regular schedule

I have the Frame Sure Drain on my Ford Explorer. It works great. Just replace the cap/plug on the vehicle with theirs. It has a one way valve that is opened when you screw on the flexible plastic hose, directs it right where you want it. Especially helpful on mine, as the plug/drain is located to the side.

Think I am going to go with the sure drain. $12.00 on ebay for 2. It will make it much easier for sure. When I pulled the drain plug oil shot into the skid plate and made a huge mess. They just have a little cutout in the plate to access the drain. At least with the hose I can direct it into some jugs.

I looked at the pictures and it appears that oil would also drain on the skid plate from the filter location as well. Did that happen to you?

I haven't done my 1st oil change on my FD-II so I'm interested to hear about other's experiences.

I have used the Fram Sure Drain for a few years on my RX-7 and it works well - just be patient as the oil doesnt flow very quickly out of it.

What size (or model number) Sure Drain fits the patriot?

I looked at the pictures and it appears that oil would also drain on the skid plate from the filter location as well. Did that happen to you?

Yep, when I left the oil change place I had a nice pile of oil in the skid plate. Hosed it off when I got home.

I haven't done my 1st oil change on my FD-II so I'm interested to hear about other's experiences.

I have used the Fram Sure Drain for a few years on my RX-7 and it works well - just be patient as the oil doesnt flow very quickly out of it.

What size (or model number) Sure Drain fits the patriot?

SD2 - 14mm X 1.5

So lemme get this straight. There's no break-in period of 500 miles or whatever the number is...to get lighter weight oil out of the motor and put in the regular stuff?

Every other vehicle I've owned has had a 500 mile service for that. Odd.

Thanks for the Sure Drain size info Hydronaut.

Sounds like we may have to come up with a scheme to minimize skidplate mess when removing the filter. One thought is to punch a hole in the bottom of the filter prior to removal, thus letting residual oil flow out of it.

On the topic of break-in. I could find no specific guidance regarding an "early" first oil change. I was going to do mine at around 1000 miles or so mainly because I'm anxious to see how easy it is to do the oil change on it. I'll probably switch to synthetic oil at ~7000 miles to ensure the engine is fully broken in - could probably make the switch a lot sooner than that with no ill effects.

I debating switching to synthetic also. I am using Castrol GTX right now.

Anybody know who makes the Mopar 5W-20. I find the problem with dealership oil changes are that your choices of oil are limited. I am sticking with the Mopar filter for now until I can find a suitable replacement. Some have suggested WIX and Purolator. Not sure where to get either in Canada.

Mopar filters are strange... They are sometimes just rebranded FRAM filters, other times they are Purolator's. For 100% positive proof of the filter quality just use Wix/Purolator branded filter or the more expensive Mobil1 brand filters and know that your engine is getting the proper filtration. [Check out this link on filters here (http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html) ]

Purolator can be found (in canada) @

UniSelect AutoParts
Auto Extra
Bestbuy AutoParts
McQuick Lube Outlets

[taken from pureoil.com]


Honestly there is no offical guideance on changing the oil early. Just do it to learn about your new vehicle as someone suggested and to take the task (of doing it vs. not doing it) off of your mind.

I have no idea where you can get the 5w-20 oil... It's very hard to come by from what I hear on other boards. Some people report walmart stocking it but I have never checked and can not confirm.

Edit: Keep thinking of stuff to add on

Not sure where Mopar gets their 5W-20 from. I've heard that the 5W-20 grade is becoming more popular so hopefully the choices will expand. If they make Castrol in 5W-20 I would not hesitate to use it.

Maybe order oil filters over the internet? I suppose that could be done with oil too....

One oil that I love is Chevron Delo 400 - it is not a synthetic per-se, but is of a more advanced oil "group" as compared to traditional oils, and has pour-point and wear characteristics that are not far from (PAO-based) synthetic. Plus its relatively cheap. Problem is - I can only find it in 15W-40.

BTW I called Fram and they have discontinued the "Sure Drain" product line. Still can get it via ebay and Jegs.com but who knows for how long.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with experience with the Fumoto valve on a FDII patriot.

Oh just something else I thought of... back in the day when I worked at a quick lube (when I was a young lad) there was I trick I learned. I don't know if it'll work on the 2.4L but I'll type it out for someone to try.

If you drain the oil first, leave the plug out and then loosen the filter. Don't take it off, just crack the seal enough so the pressure can escape. This used to let out just a tiny bit more oil from the block than the normal plug, then filter change style did. Didn't work on all cars but I remember it working on chrysler products...

Not sure where Mopar gets their 5W-20 from. I've heard that the 5W-20 grade is becoming more popular so hopefully the choices will expand. If they make Castrol in 5W-20 I would not hesitate to use it.

Maybe order oil filters over the internet? I suppose that could be done with oil too....

One oil that I love is Chevron Delo 400 - it is not a synthetic per-se, but is of a more advanced oil "group" as compared to traditional oils, and has pour-point and wear characteristics that are not far from (PAO-based) synthetic. Plus its relatively cheap. Problem is - I can only find it in 15W-40.

BTW I called Fram and they have discontinued the "Sure Drain" product line. Still can get it via ebay and Jegs.com but who knows for how long.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with experience with the Fumoto valve on a FDII patriot.

I am using Castrol GTX 5W-20? I was told that Fram stopped making the sure drain because it didn't sell. 18 bucks on ebay will get you 2 including shipping.

The reason I went with the Fram over the Fumoto is that the Fumoto sticks out a bit more and scares me if I were to take it off road. With my luck I would tear it off.

Well, on my 13 year old 160,000 mile Neon that the Patriot replaced, I changed it at 2832 miles for the first oil change--as per the owner's manual (3000). The rest of the car is getting pretty rusty, but the motor is still going strong, still delivering 30 mpg city.

Another former car of mine, 1993 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L, now owned by a friend, is now close to 300,000 miles. Motor is good, but has finally developed a pretty good oil leak from rear main. BTW, when I did the head gasket on the Acclaim at 175,000 miles, the cylinder cross hatch was still easily visible! I expected to at least see a "ring ridge" at the top of the cylinder, but the bore was smooth all the way to the top, with a beautiful cross hatch!

IIRC, my 1989 Ford Mustang 5.0L owner's manual specifically stated an early oil change was not necessary, due to special break-in oil installed by the manufacturer.

But, sure, do whatever you are most comfortable doing.

Yeah, either way the engine is going to run forever... They are pretty easy to take care of these days too so that is a nice bonus.

I never liked changing the plugs on my old 89 Mustang because the A/C canister was right in the was on cylinder #4. And that double hump oil pan was a real PITA! With the Libby - the plugs are all right out from the top. Just pop off the air cleaner duct and go to town with your socket wrench. The oil is also pretty easy

gotta love cars that are painless to wrench on.

Sounds like we may have to come up with a scheme to minimize skidplate mess when removing the filter. One thought is to punch a hole in the bottom of the filter prior to removal, thus letting residual oil flow out of it.


I see a production possibility there! Does anyone know of a filter with a built-in drain? I am sure we would all pay $1 or 2 more per filter if it had a drain plug of its own?

I don't think such a thing exist's... Best thing to do is crack the filter seal and let the oil drain down the filter into the pan. Use a papertowel and then remove said filter without tipping so the oil doesn't run down your arm.

Lukewarm oil = Nice

hot oil = unhappy nerves located on the forearm

I see a production possibility there! Does anyone know of a filter with a built-in drain? I am sure we would all pay $1 or 2 more per filter if it had a drain plug of its own?

It's called a screwdriver :)

Yeah, either way the engine is going to run forever... They are pretty easy to take care of these days too so that is a nice bonus.

I never liked changing the plugs on my old 89 Mustang because the A/C canister was right in the was on cylinder #4. And that double hump oil pan was a real PITA! With the Libby - the plugs are all right out from the top. Just pop off the air cleaner duct and go to town with your socket wrench. The oil is also pretty easy

gotta love cars that are painless to wrench on.

I remeber my old 3.1L GM. The third plug on the rear driver's side. You could barely get your hand in there.

One trick I found worked well was use some surgical tubing on the end of your spark plug to get them started without cross threading them.

It's called a screwdriver :)

Phillips or Flat Head? :confused:

How about a pop top like a can of soda??? :blah:

Maybe DYSON will invent an engine that doesn't lose power and never needs a filter! :)

Update...I went to the dealer in town today, and they told me the "road ready" story. Said I didn't need to get the oil / filter changed until the 3,000 mile mark, there is no light weight oil in the motor that needs to be changed out. First time for everything.

As an update to the "Sure Drain" product - I actually found one at a local auto part store (Salvo Auto parts). They must be selling off old inventory.

Found Castrol 5W-20 at another chain store (Advance Auto Parts). They had a couple other brands with that grade, including Mobil 1.

Waitng for mine to come in. Will update once it is installed. It will sure make oil changes easier.

Just did the first oil change on my FD II. In my case, I did not have a problem with oil running onto the skidplate. Maybe it helped that I did not remove the fill cap until after the oil started draining.

I tried the trick of punching a hole in the filter to drain its oil before unscrewing (note: please make sure you can loosen the filter a little first). That works, although strangely after I thought the filter was all drained and loosened it further, substantially more oil came out of the hole, so keep a drain pan under it as you loosen.

I replaced the drain plug with the Fram Sure Drain plug (used a torque wrench to install). The hole in the skidplate allows plenty enough access to screw on the drain tube for the next oil change. Seems to be enough clearance for the Fumoto style drain valve as well.

All in all the patriot is the easiest vehicle to do an oil change on that I have owned. The toughest part was loosening the original filter - none of my "cap style" filter wrenches fit, and it was tricky using a small strap style wrench because I had to get it through the skidplate, but that worked.

Just did the first oil change on my FD II. In my case, I did not have a problem with oil running onto the skidplate. Maybe it helped that I did not remove the fill cap until after the oil started draining.

I tried the trick of punching a hole in the filter to drain its oil before unscrewing (note: please make sure you can loosen the filter a little first). That works, although strangely after I thought the filter was all drained and loosened it further, substantially more oil came out of the hole, so keep a drain pan under it as you loosen.

I replaced the drain plug with the Fram Sure Drain plug (used a torque wrench to install). The hole in the skidplate allows plenty enough access to screw on the drain tube for the next oil change. Seems to be enough clearance for the Fumoto style drain valve as well.

All in all the patriot is the easiest vehicle to do an oil change on that I have owned. The toughest part was loosening the original filter - none of my "cap style" filter wrenches fit, and it was tricky using a small strap style wrench because I had to get it through the skidplate, but that worked.

I made the mistake of taking the plug right out. My SureDain just came in today. I will put it on for the next oil change. How many lbs did you torque it down to (25 ft lbs?).

I torqued it to 30 ft-lbs, which is within the range they specify for that model Sure Drain (its in the install instructions). 25 would probably work fine too. I havent checked for leaks yet, as its been mostly raining since I did the oil change.

Got our first oil change today. I didn't realize it was complementary at the dealer for the first one, so that was a nice surprise. 1700 miles - even if its not true for the new engines, I still like to get the first one a little early, figure a couple bucks now for possible long term benefits.

Yeah, an early oil change isn't going to hurt anything. Nothing wrong with pampering your baby a little!

For kicks, when I changed the oil I tried to pour the old oil through a coffee filter to see if there were any particles in the oil. That didnt work - the oil wouldnt pass through the filter - I should have known that. Occurred to me later that I could have dragged a magnet through the drain pan....
Anyway, the "old" (1000 mi) oil looked fine, somewhat dirty (like it should) but fine.

I was thinking about this whole changing the oil soon after driving your Patriot. I want to make some assumptions: let us say that you average about 1700 RPM (or use whatever you think is a more realistic average), that you average about 45 MPH over the course of racking up the miles (again substitute if deemed appropriate), and that you change your oil after 750 miles. 750 Miles / 45 Miles per Hour = 16.667 Hours x 60 Minutes per Hour = 1000 Minutes x 1700 Revolutions per Minute = 1,700,000 Revolutions.

If we assume that at the engine plant they at least startup the engine to make sure it works (as stated earlier in this thread) and run it for 10 Minutes at an average of 1700 RPM it will have turned 17,000 Revolutions.

The amount of time of running in the plant is probably long enough to "debur" the engine, and anything that isn't "deburred" is simply going to become part of the long term wear pattern (better tolerances and QC better wear pattern). I am definitely not an expert but just wanted to point out the total revolutions of the engine.

We have to change the oil and filter because they get full of carbon and other deposits because they are in contact with the combustion chambers. This leads to the sludge of oil that we all get changed every 3000 miles. That same sludge of oil, when recycled (cleaned and filtered) is nice and clear and ready to use again.

P.S. A Formula 1 race car engine turns at about 18,000 RPM (300 revolutions per second). That is pretty amazing isn't it!

Interesting points for sure. Engine break-in, oil selection, and change interval must be, by far, the most common car-talk topics on the internet.

In the case of the Patriot, everything I've seen on the topic indicates that theres no compelling reason to do the first oil change "early". I changed mine at 900 miles though - I was curious about how easy it would be to change the oil on it, plus theres some psychological comfort in putting clean oil in.

In the future though, I wont be doing changes any more often than factory recommended.

I would add to the previous post that another reason that oil needs to be changed is the fact that the viscosity additives can break down. This does not seem to be a big problem with car oil, but I wonder if the 5W-20 the Pat uses has less viscosity "margin" - in other words, since the viscosity is already low, any degradation of that could have a bigger impact on engine wear as compared to, say, 15W-40. Of course, I could just be talking out of my a%#.....

Maybe at my next Oil change I will send a sample out for analysis. If I do, I will report the results on this forum. Maybe someone here will get their factory oil analyzed at the first oil change. THAT I would like to see. Anything less than lab data is just anecdotal.

I changed my oil at 750 miles and the oil that came out was super clean.

I bought my patriot on June 26th but it was Made on March 7th, so I thought it would be best to change it because it was past 3 months.

The Oil filter I removed said "Factory Install" so I was pretty sure the dealer did not change it since the factory.

I used 10w30 synthetic. I may switch to thinner oil for the winter.

Speaking of oil changes...I came across this TSB from 1/07 that should also apply to patriots : http://www.wkjeeps.com/misc/Caliber/TSB/Caliber_2600107.pdf
Why 5w-20 in the US, and 5w-30 in the rest of the world? Canada?
Cafe Standards?
Does 5w-30 protect better in the long run? :confused:

Very interesting find Steel5. Check out the article below. Very good read. It looks like they may be changing requirements because of this:

"SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England"

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance

They also say that if your engine overheats, the 5w20's would become dangerously thin, and over the lifetime of the engine, thicker oils may be better.

Update:
Another interesting read about oil: http://bestsyntheticoil.com/dealers/amsoil/5w20-cafe.shtml

I'll probably switch to 5w-30 when my Pat comes in. Might give up a little MPG over the 20 weight oil, but I'd rather have the added security of the 30 weight especially in the summer.