Okay guys, here is the thing....I'm new to all of this...I've always had SUV's, but I'd like to get one that has a bit of off-road capability for my next vehicle. However, I don't want to get something that isn't also practical.....thus my interest in the Patriot.

That said, I'd also like to modify my next vehicle so it is a bit more powerful/ballsy than the stock output.

I've already said I want to turbo-charge the Patriot...however, I also want to put on a small (2.5"?) suspension lift. What does this entail.....are shocks part of the suspenion, and if so, is there any benefit to buying premium aftermarket shocks?

Further.....and this is the kicker.....I have done some research on aftermarket locking rear differentials. I found one company that installs air pressured lockers which can be controlled via a dash-mounted switch. How do you guys think this would work with a.) independant suspension, and b.) AWD? I'd be interested only in the rear lockers.

Here is the thing though....do you have to wait for specific parts, or will generic parts work for different vehicles? In other words, I see a lot of these company make parts specifically for Wranglers, or FJ Cruisers, or whatever....so do I have to wait until (or if) they take interest in the Patriot, or are some things made to fit most vehicles?

Also, I know Wranglers use Dana axles....right?....so this aftermarket locker company manufactures these lockers to fit on a whole slew of axles I guess....they list them....so what will the axles be for the Patriot?

Thanks to all who take interest and respond.

Here is the locking differential company I was looking at.....

http://www.arb.com.au/air_locker_locking_differentials.htm

I don't see why it wouldn't work with AWD....Its not like the power gets divided up to each wheel separately....it gets divided up between either the front or rear axle, thus locking the rear axle shouldn't really affect the AWD....right?

Oh...here is the list of vehicles they are making lockers for......you see what I mean? They list the axles, and I don't know what the Patriot's would be...
http://www.arb.com.au/alac/215110.pdf

Here is a link to an electric locker that I saw:
http://www.detroitlocker.com/DE.htm

ARB is very popular with the solid-axle crowd. I don't think they make any for independent suspensions, aside from possibly the center sections of the front ends of some fullsize pickups. The thing is, a rear Dana 35 or 44 axle can be found on lots and lots of Jeeps, even other brands, because the design was used for years and years. I think the center sections and differential internals for independent suspensions, on the other hand, are designed for each vehicle nowadays.

The question about whether you can use generic parts, well, It Depends. None of us that intend to use the Trail-Rated-ness of the new Patriot to its full potential have even had a chance to look at one in person yet, as far as I know. Once a couple people get ahold of them, we should have pictures here and specs on all the suspension and drivetrain components. And once a few off road companies get ahold of Patriots, I'm sure there will be lifts, upgrades, etc.

The other thing is that I'm not aware of a generic 'turbo' kit that you can just bolt on. Turbochargers are a major modification to the intake and exhaust system of an engine, and if you want to get one right away, you'd be paying some tuner shop quite a bit for the prototype, which may or may not work :)

I'd say chill, wait to see what people really think once they own these as far as power and off road capability, and then wait and see what companies come out with for it. Patience. :D

I'm going to have to say that if you're looking to modify an SUV the Patriot probably won't be for you. I'd imagine it will be at least two years after it's release before you see any sort of lift kit... and this is of course assuming anyone bothers. While some portions of the previous Jeep generations were interchangable (like the ZJ, XJ, MJ, and TJ) the current designs are much more vehicle specific... not to mention the Patriot has an entirely different type of suspension set-up (IFS.) Considering the immense difficulty the aftermarket has had in developing effective lift kits for the Liberty, its highly possible that the Patriot will be an even bigger challenge. Additionally, I'm not sure but I don't believe the typical Dana axles will be under the Patty so chances of a locker are slim.

A good option might be a ZJ or WJ Grand Cherokee... there are a lot of performance upgrades out there for those two generations of the Grand for an engine that's already far beyond the Patty's four-banger. There are a lot of options for lifts for them... everything from 2" kits for under 100 bucks to the full blown out lifts that you'll need a ladder to get into. The ZJ and WJ's designs are much more offroad oriented than the Patriot, so it's much less difficult. You could slap an ARB air locker in the axles (d30 and d35), jack it up with an OME 2" kit (which is said to actually improve the ride) and finish it off by mounting an ARB Bull Bar up front with a winch.

Of course, this is a drastically different set-up than a Patriot. If that's what you like then so be it... just throwing ideas out there. But I don't foresee much aftermarket support for the Patriot for quite awhile.

Captain Crash is right. Besides the looks of the Liberty, the major problem was the lack of lifts available for it. The IFS really limited how much you could lift it without completely overhauling the suspension. I really doubt there will be
much to do with the Patriot.

Plus, because independent suspensions are more complex, even if they do come out with aftermarket mods, they will be pretty expensive compared to the ones for the solid axled Jeeps.

I have a 93 ZJ and agree that it is a great vehicle to fix up. If you get the V8 magnum, that engine is bulletproof. My engine just hit 177k and is still going strong (hell, I'm still getting 18mpg city and 20 or 21 mpg highway -- same mileage as when my parents bought it new back in late 1992). In Jeep forums, I've read of people getting well over 250k on it. I'm putting new shocks and a 2" body lift on it to fit 31s under it.

Now that they are becoming affordable, there is a slowly building base of people modding ZJs. Also, if you get the V8, there really isn't much you need to mod the engine since it already has a good bit of power (unless you put a monster lift on it).

The XJ is another great option, but the wheel well is a bit smaller than the ZJ, so you need to typically add 1 or 2 inches of lift to get the same tires as the ZJ. If my ZJ dies, I will probably find a XJ to replace it -- since it's a bit smaller (plus I learned to drive on one, so there will always be a place in my heart for a XJ)

A great place to see what is out there for ZJs is www.kevinsoffroad.com .

I still believe the Patriot with the FDII should be just as capable for mud, snow, etc as my stock Cherokee. Unless you're going to rock crawl with the Patriot, the majority of the stuff they do to Jeeps isn't worth it because all the lifts and mods are really for rock crawling. Rock crawling is just for some people.. and I happen to live in areas where there aren't big rocky mountains to climb. :D

I've seen AWD Suburus take on big mud holes that lifted XJs with mud tires can't tackle, on the other hand. Let's give the Patriot some credit here, that Trail Rated badge means it can do what the majority of SUVs on the market could never do: traverse the Rubicon Trail.

- xjMatt

I will reserve myself until I see how the Patriot handles itself offroad in its stock form. I am not sure what kind of RMPs will be maintained while wheeling - considering the CVT.

I am not sure you will get your moneys worth when you beef up a vehicle which is designed for light wheeling. There may be a lot more that needs to be upgraded to handle the stress/strain of harder wheeling.

Your money might be better spent on an XJ or waiting for the boxier 2008 Liberty.

On the other hand, I have seen some incredible things done to the tiny little samurai! Some swap out just about everything.

I am not sure how hardcore of a trail your looking to take the Patriot down/up either... so I am going to wait to see what it can do right out-of-the-box.

As far as hardcore off-roading or rock crawling goes, I wouldn't likely have that oppurtunity. I'm mainly interested for taking it to my cabin in New York's Southern Tier. We have about 300 acres of land with trails leading all through it....up and down, fairly to very steep, very muddy and often unfinished.

Further, the dirt road that leads up to the camp is one of the last in the county to be plowed during a heavy snow fall. When it is plowed, the damned plow dumps nearly a foot of snow in front of my driveway. My driveway is about 1/8 of a mile from its tip to the garage where we have a kubota waiting to remove the snow.

I have a '02 Blazer...my Dad has an '05 Silverado. When it comes to getting up that damned driveway, he lacks the ground clearance due to its extended wheelbase and his pansy running board and I have a tough time as well...especially if the snow has iced over or if I hit a drift.

Thus, I'd like the Patriot for a little fun on the trails, and I'd like to add a 2" lift and locker so I can walk right up that drive way....not to mention the steep dirt road hill that leads up to the camp.....more than once I've seen cars start up, and then come back down...wheels still spinning and nose pointing in the opposite direction.

Let's give the Patriot some credit here, that Trail Rated badge means it can do what the majority of SUVs on the market could never do: traverse the Rubicon Trail.

I would actually be curious to see how many other SUVs COULD traverse the Rubicon trail. I'd assume the higher end 4Runners, XTerras, and every Hummer could. Too bad the trail rated badge is only a Jeep standard and not an industry standard. Although, among other 4 cylinder SUVs, I would be hardpressed to think that any one of them could do it...

I think some of you missed the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying the Patriot won't be capable SUV, it just won't be up to par with the previous generation Jeeps like the ZJ, WJ, or XJ. I think it will be a great little Jeep for running rough backroads with mud and snow and some very light trails, but I doubt it's going to be any more capable than the 02 Blazer. And like I said, if any lifts ever actually do come out for the Patriot, it will be after a very long time... and I highly highly doubt we will ever see a locker for it.

As for the Rubicon Trail, the Patriot wouldn't make it through. They had to BB the ZJ to make it through... and the WK and XK took quite a bit body damage on their test runs.

Hey guys, I have another question....When they say the Patriot has a 19:1 low range, what does this mean exactly? Further, how would one calculate it for a Chevy Blazer...or any other vehicle for that matter? Also, what is the industry norm for low ratios? Wrangler...Liberty, etc?

Hey guys, I have another question....When they say the Patriot has a 19:1 low range, what does this mean exactly? Further, how would one calculate it for a Chevy Blazer...or any other vehicle for that matter? Also, what is the industry norm for low ratios? Wrangler...Liberty, etc?

Okay, I found a couple things....maybe you guys could comment on them. First, the Compass's final drive ratio is 4.12:1(www.jeep.com). When calculating the Crawl Ratio of a vehicle we take Tranmision Ration x Transfer Ratio x Axle Ratio. (according to:http://www.4lo.com/4LoCalc.htm and http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/crawl.html)

So how then do we calculate the crawl ratio for the Patriot? I know have the low range 19:1 and if it is comparable to the Compass we have the final drive ratio 4.12:1....so what does that leave us with? Or is the 4.12:1 already figured into the 19:1 low range...in which case according to www.4x4abc.com is a substandard for a off-roading crawl ratio (he sites 30:1 for an automatic).

Anybody...anybody?

Further...how do you guys feel about this...please read it all...but if you are bored only read the AWD section.

Part time 4WD vehicles always distribute torque inside their transfer case 50/50 to front and rear when the shifter is in one of the 4WD positions (Hi or Lo). Most of the time each of the 4 wheels gets 25% of the torque - that minimizes wheel spin. This system is very strong and reliable - unfortunately it can't be used on pavement. Should one of the wheels or one axle lose traction - the other axle will still receive a reliable supply of torque (up to 100%) through the transfer case.

Conventional full time 4WD vehicles use a differential inside the transfer case to make 4WD use on pavement possible. This is done with a ring and pinion set or a planetary gear set. Each of the 4 wheels constantly gets 25% of the torque (as long as the ground is level and traction is equal) - that in itself prevents wheel spin. This setup is also very strong and reliable. However, this system would be handicapped for off-road use (it is much more likely to lose traction off-road than on-road) if it would not have some sort of spin control. Call it traction control, if you will. If one of the tires or one axle would lose traction - the differential in the transfer case (often called "center differential") would allow the axle with lost traction to spin (could be both tires or one). To avoid this some of the full time 4WD vehicles offer a manual center differential lock (all LandRover, Mercedes G etc.) or other means of (automatic) spin control. A mechanically locked center diff acts like a part time transfer case - and is as strong and reliable as a part time system off-road. Some vehicles do not manage or lock any of the differentials. Instead they have systems that slows down spinning wheels.

Now, all wheel drive (AWD) is a completely different "beast". In my opinion it is useless beyond pavement because it does not have low range like the other two systems. Low range provides necessary crawl speed for maximum control during difficult driving situations. And low range range provides a significant torque multiplication.Low gears in a 4WD are like the low gears in a mountain bike. Can you imagine a mountain bike without low gears? Main drawback of AWD is that the transfer case can't be manually locked. Two different systems are in use - neither one works well for use beyond pavement:
AWD System one (true all wheel drive - or full time symmetric AWD) has a conventional differential inside the transfer case - each of the wheels gets about 25% of the torque as long as traction is equal. However, the center diff cannot be mechanically locked.
To prevent a complete loss of traction when one wheel or one axle would spin, a viscous coupling or a similar device like a Haldex coupling (see note) will try to "glue" both driveshafts together to keep enough torque flowing to the axle with traction. Works kinda OK on slippery pavement when the vehicle has already sufficient momentum and the connecting device has to kick in very infrequently. Off-road or in other situations with slow speed and high demand for torque the glue box (viscous coupling or Haldex etc.) is overstressed and fails to deliver the needed torque. High torque transfers and continous use make especially viscous couplings fail. Haldex units are much more reliable but cannot satisfy the constant high demand for torque at all wheels either.

AWD System two (automatic asymmetric AWD - and in a way actually only a sophisticated 2WD system) might not have a differential in the transfer case (Volvo, Honda, Lexus, etc.) but some do (Jeep Grand Cherokee). Primary power goes only to one axle (makes spinning tires much more likely due to inefficient use of traction - as likely as in any other 2WD car). However, both drive shafts are joined by a viscous coupling or a similar device (see note) and as long as all 4 wheels turn at the same speeds the control unit remains inactive. Once the powered axle or one of the powered tires loses traction, the powered drive shaft rotates faster than the one that is just rotating along. The control unit reacts to the speed difference and kinda glues both drive shafts together. This way the previously unpowered shaft will get some of the torque and rescue the failing tires. Same story as in system one: Works kinda OK on slippery pavement when the vehicle has already sufficient momentum and the control unit has to kick in very infrequently. Fails miserably when need of high torque arises or when activated frequently. Cannot satisfy the constant high demand for torque at all wheels when off-road.

Now you may understand better why I think AWD is not suitable for use beyond pavement.

The last generation Jeep Grand Cherokees (1999 WJ and 2005 KJ) with QuadraDrive II are not to be confused with a viscous coupling system. The J GC also powers only one axle (rear) but the Gerodisc technology and E-Gerodisc used by Jeep is very strong, very reliable and provides sufficient amounts of torque to where it's needed.

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html

This was written some time ago....has the Patriot overcome these problems? Well, we have a low range now, but what about the differential not locking? I kind of wonder why the Compass gets a locking center differential, while the Patriot Freedom Drive II doesn't.....seems strange.

Further.....and this is the kicker.....I have done some research on aftermarket locking rear differentials. I found one company that installs air pressured lockers which can be controlled via a dash-mounted switch. How do you guys think this would work with a.) independant suspension, and b.) AWD? I'd be interested only in the rear lockers.



Here is an example of a vehicle with IFS, IRS that has rear locking differentials.

http://www.vw.com/touareg/features_perf.html

Those come standard, though. ARB might make a model if the Patriot turns out to be popular. Who knows? No one can tell at this pre-release date stage, of course :)

I sent this email to Harald Pietschmann, the creator of 4x4abc.com...his response is interesting coming from a pro:

Mr. Pietschmann,

Let me start by saying I think your site is amazing. I found it when I was searching for the answer to a simple curiousity, and I think I've re-read everything there several times....it is bookmarked as a favorite. You truly should charge a membership fee.

Because I respect your opinion, I thought I'd ask you to share it. I am anxiously awaiting the new Jeep Patriot. I'll admit I like the squared off look, but it also seems extremely functional, and Jeep has been hyping it to be quite capable as well.

I've always wondered why someone hasn't made a "off-road capable" AWD system. With the ability to drop into low gear, Jeep believes it has. Now, with the practicality of AWD for around town...and the promise of the ability to take it off-road, this car seems too good to be true.

What is your take? They say it is Trail Rated. I'm not looking to transverse the Rubicon, but I do have 300 acres full of trails in the mountainous areas of Southern New York that I'd like to play with.

19:1 ratio....does that include the 4.12:1 final drive ratio? If so, is that poor?

Independant front and rear suspension....can it be modified or lifted? Will aftermarket Locking Differentials work on this system?

172 hp 165 torque...good enough? is there a way to modify?

9" ground clearance. 29/23/33 approach/break/departure angles....decent?

I'm sure you won't have time to answer all or possibly any of my questions but any help would be appreciated. One way or the other, thanks for the great site.


thanks for your kind words about my site.

Jeep Patriot?
Just another marketing gimmick!

Trail rated? Yeah - define "trail".

Could not find out how Jeep defines their 19:1 ratio. They do not volunteer to give you the specifics. Bad sign.

Ground clearance is lousy. Even worse, the clearance under the doors is not sufficient. On any capable 4WD the lowest line of the rocker panel is at least as high as the connecting line between both wheel centers.

Independent suspension and off-road do not go well together. IFS is best for pavement though.
Same is valid for AWD. Not for off-road in my book, but good for pavement.

Don't know whether diff lockers can be installed in the axle differentials. But even if you could do that - the base vehicle is not worth that investment.

The only semi capable 4WD vehicle in the Jeep lineup is the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Somewhat acceptable is the JGC with all the locking options.

Not a surprising response in the least. He speaks the truth.

Independent suspension and off-road do not go well together. IFS is best for pavement though.
Same is valid for AWD. Not for off-road in my book, but good for pavement.

I would take this comment with a grain of salt. If you watch rockcrawling competition and Baja races, almost every participant has independent suspension -- only they cost an ungodly amount of money. That being said, we all don't have 100k to drop on our cars, so when referring to consumer vehicles that is completely true.

Does any company have an electronically controlled AWD system? If they do, then it'd be really easy to "lock" all four wheels. You flip a switch that tells the computer to spin all 4 wheels at the same speed no matter what. This seems all to obvious to me, but I guess that may not be considered as "reliable" as a viscous coupling system.

For those of you who might skip over my post on the CVT2L...here is a link (http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=186) which details some questions about the final drive ratio/low ratio/crawl ratio of the Patriot.

I pose these questios for comparison sake. To me, it seems like some websites are using final drive ratio and crawl ratio interchangeably. However, it also seems as though some websites are using final drive ratio and axle ratio interchangeably.

This is all very confusing. The Jeep Liberty has two axle ratios: 3.55 and 3.73. It is also listed as having a 3.73 final drive ratio. When you multiply that times the first gear and the 2.72 transfer case, the crawl ratio is 29:1 or 45:1 depending on the axle and whether it is manual or automatic.

That is a massive difference when compared to the Patriots 19:1 ratio....but is the 19:1 ratio a crawl ratio? Does it take the axle into consideration? Or is it simply the effect of multiplying the "gear"/CVT ratio x the low range?

Upon plugging in the same numbers for the Suzuki Grand Vitara, (assuming the final drive ratio and axle ratio are the same as with the Liberty) we get surprisingly high numbers as well. Is it possible that the Grand Vitara is more capable than the Patriot?

It's not a Patriot, but there's an ad I found in some issue of Four Wheeler featuring the Active Traction System on the FJ Cruiser. This is not an attempt to sway you all over to the Toy FJ, it's just to show how they do theirs and the fact that they have a selectable locker in the rear, and there's lots of lockers for Toy solid axles.

Since I can't scan at the moment, I've linked to the web-version of the same 'bulletin':
http://toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/fjbulletin/index.html?s_van=GM_FJ_HOME_FJ_BULLETIN
Go to Engineering, then Traction Control.

Cool tech if you can stand the voiceover to see the animations (so much slower than just reading the info)

- xjMatt

Does any company have an electronically controlled AWD system? If they do, then it'd be really easy to "lock" all four wheels. You flip a switch that tells the computer to spin all 4 wheels at the same speed no matter what. This seems all to obvious to me, but I guess that may not be considered as "reliable" as a viscous coupling system.

The link to the Toy FJ is mainly because you brought this up. Their argument is that selectable locking and a 50/50 torque split shifted into 4-wheel is the best solution for a production vehicle with good road manners. :)

That is a massive difference when compared to the Patriots 19:1 ratio....but is the 19:1 ratio a crawl ratio?

Yep, that's the crawl ratio, with everything - axles, transaxle in low range mode, etc. - already figured in. It's not as low as, say, a Wrangler or Liberty will get.

Let's face it, the Patriot is not going to be an off-road monster. It looks like it will be a good daily driver for those of us who like a Jeep logo on everything we own. It'll also be able to handle back roads, two tracks, messy roads in winter, that type of thing.

If you want something you can mod, the Wrangler is your best choice. The new Wranglers are barely hitting dealer lots, and already two lift kits have been announced for them.