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post #136 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:32 AM
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I honestly don't know how you can do what you're talking about without a government insurance program. Its the only way to keep private delivery and constrain costs at the same time.
Just be like procedure A costs this much drug B costs this much. Anything over that and its against the law.
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post #137 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 04:44 AM
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Just be like procedure A costs this much drug B costs this much. Anything over that and its against the law.
That's what single payer programs achieve without direct laws on each medical product. Single payer kills several birds with one stone:

*Bulk purchase power reduces prices paid out of the insurance programs, so its more sustainable cost-wise.

*When most bills are paid through the primary insurance program, administrative costs are minimized tremendously. One coding system vs. thousands of codes for each service.

*Guaranteed coverage means there's no free riders pumping up costs for others, each patient has guaranteed payment.

Politically, single payer is much easier to handle, implement, and get everyone to agree upon. But that's just my opinion.
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post #138 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 11:05 AM
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No argument about the numbers presented here, but I hardly see this as proof that people prefer public health programs to private insurance. Think of it this way:
If the Canadian government announced tomorrow that it would 100% subsidize liability auto insurance for every licensed driver in Canada, and if you wanted higher coverage or comprehensive coverage you could source that privately. But, you would not receive any tax credit for doing so even though you would be purchasing your own coverage privately. How many people would call the government subsidized insurance "good enough" and continue without purchasing increased coverage or comprehensive coverage privately? Almost all of them. It's human nature. It wouldn't even matter if the government provided coverage was terribly slow to follow up on claims and routinely undercut claims and paid less than the total of damages. Since it's "free" most people would take it and never worry about until they needed it, and then may complain about it, but would do little to change it.
So in the case of British NHS services, sure you can purchase private coverage. But the British government is not going to give you a tax credit for using it instead of the NHS coverage that your taxes are already paying for. So what benefit do people see on a regular basis from having private insurance until the NHS fails them in some way?

I will make a separate post about my personal feelings on the governments role in health care because I think there is some confusion as to where I stand. My main contention here is that there are differences between America, Canada, and Britain.
I said I wasn't going to keep discussing these issues, but I wanted to offer some final counter viewpoints and never addressed this comment.

You are assuming health care is of bad quality in the UK or Canada. This isn't true, I had hernia surgery myself in the past. I can relate to your cousin. I've been honest and straightforward with you: it took two months for mine. But I received high quality care. My procedure was not handled inappropriately, the doctors and medical staff did a terrific job.

I am aware Americans can jump the queue if you have enough money or very high quality insurance that so many other US citizens lack. Does that mean your health care has better outcomes for most people? No.

That's the debate, in a nutshell. We do have a difficult time in Canada with elective wait times, I will not lie to you. That's a small problem to have vs. the issues I hear coming out of the states, however. We have an easier problem to tackle, because we all get coverage at the end of the day.

Health care quality is a murky topic, we don't get everything right here in Canada. But let me tell you where I think the US system fails more than ours. When you have very serious, very life threatening events in your life I'd rather be here in Canada.

I have a personal family friend who is dear to me, he has had cancer for years. Here in Ontario he had surgery and therapies back 15 years ago to take care of it. Since that time, as a preventative procedure he's had monthly injections of a powerful (and expensive) anti-cancer medication every month. For over 10 years consistently he's had this treatment, and it kept his cancer at bay until the past year. Now he's receiving some of the latest treatments available to stay alive.

In the US, I highly question whether this man could have relied upon your fragmented system and various insurance companies to have provided him an injection consistently every month for 10 full years. He told me the docs said that would be $10k out of pocket each injection if he had to deal with it personally. No private insurance company wants to pay that, they would likely have delivered him a rejection letter or some excuse like its 'experimental' to get the treatment. But here in Ontario OHIP has covered his care consistently for many years. He hasn't paid one dime, there is no deductible, no monthly premium, and there isn't even a co-pay to see his doctor. He's paid zero to get this high quality preventative anti-cancer life saving care and treatment.

Even though we wait for some elective care, I view our health care as higher quality here for reasons like the above. So don't assume public health care is of low quality. There's a reason why in a democratic country like Canada we voters don't ever elect people to take away our health care. Every few years we have a choice to make, and we always choose people who support public health services.

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post #139 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 11:37 AM
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Hernia surgery is very simple procedure involving one incision about an inch long tucking your guts back through the tear in your muscle inserting a piece of "mesh" that reinforces the area while it heals and stapling it shut. My brother had it scheduled in a week, spent about three hours getting it done and then was recovering for a week. So scheduling it and then leaving Toronto for Michigan and being home a week later is not at all unheard of. My Wife broke her ankle in a car accident and had to have surgery to repair it. Her surgery was scheduled and completed within a week. Her recovery took two months, but the surgery itself was done in less than a week and was not life threatening.
I'm happy your cousin got what he was seeking/looking for, he was an impatient American temporarily in Canada.

It is very rare that a Canadian comes to the US for medical services, its not that its unheard of, it is just exceedingly rare. It is more common on Americans relying on Canadian pharmacies to afford drugs than Canadians who come south. Here in Ontario we had such a problem with Americans crossing into Canada for free health care (using friends' health cards) they started putting photo identification on our health cards to put a stop to it! LOL

I wouldn't have made the choice to pay out of pocket and go to Michigan to get the procedure several weeks quicker, but that was his choice. I've had a hernia, its hardly the most painful thing in the world. No one wants surgeries to begin with, so waiting was not a problem for me.

If your wife had a crushed ankle in a car accident while here in Canada, she would have received quick service here as well. Things are run on triage, that is not the same thing as a hernia surgery at all. If they realize you have a crushed ankle in a car accident, and it is going to heal in a warped position and needs immediate care, you will get that surgery likely the same day or two of coming into the ER from the car accident. Its called triaged care. You don't actually believe a doctor in a Canadian ER would say no, let that ankle heal in a warped position, and then we'll re-brake it and re-set it in 3 months, do you? I know you are American, but do you really believe that? Is that what you're hearing about our system?!? LOL!

The reason why I'm repeating some of this for you is that even though I've mentioned it, and I've acknowledged some the weaknesses in our Canadian system, I don't think you still have comprehended the triage concept to health care in Canada. A car accident patient is treated on the spot, someone with a simple hernia surgery will wait a bit. A crushed ankle is not life threatening, but that is not quite a hernia surgery either. An emergency is an emergency, you don't wait at all for that. Many, many years ago my brother had a car accident and had reconstructive surgery for a broke nose within 24 hours here in Ontario. Another story, but a true one. No that's not 'scientific survey' but it is what happened.

Now if you have a deviated septum, have lived with it all your life, and you need to schedule the surgery but are otherwise healthy, you might very well wait 6 months here in Ontario. Gasp, you might even wait 8 months if you're in a busy hospital system (although you can choose to go to another one and get another opinion)! That might be very true. These are stories you hear that are absolutely true about our health care system. That's how Canadian care works, its triaged. Despite some of our waits for elective care, I still think we have a superior health care system.

Does any of this triage concept make sense? I hope so, because that is how care works here. There's not really a specific wait time for any procedure really, each one is different based on individual case. Our government does measure average wait times by surveying hospitals, however. But it doesn't give the full picture, and it isn't a 'central government wait list' like you hear on American news outlets. That is a myth, that is a lie.

I also apologize if any of you think I'm being long-winded. I find this discussion entertaining.

And to level with you and be straightforward, the USA does have faster access to a number of elective procedures and services, provided you have enough financial/insurance backing to do so. I have never said the US doesn't have this advantage. You are correct in your assertions on the hernia surgery, but I would debate getting that specific procedure quicker doesn't equate higher quality per se. The problem in the US, and the debate, comes back to one common point: it is only better if you have the money and resources. This is hard to maintain when you fall ill, lose employment and employer insurance, and your fragmented US system can be deadly for someone who gets cancer, loses a job, switches to medicaid, has to postpone or alter treatments because of it. It might be months between losing employer insurance and qualifying for a state program like medicaid in the US, that's fragmented health care. Or it could be your private insurance just starts to deny payments suddenly, using lame exclusionary clauses, such as what I experienced in the past. And while all this fragmented health nightmare is going on, Americans get bills. Countless, endless bills and must argue and fight and negotiate endless billing nightmares while they have these serious health ailments. I know your health care system well, I'm not a typical Canadian as I've lived in your country. I know very well where the US system fails and has huge gaps. Just because you can get a quicker hernia surgery or pay for a quicker MRI picture with appropriate insurance coverages doesn't mean your system has better outcomes, because health care is a damn complicated subject. Terribly complicated.

It is so terribly complicated that it is very hard to explain to an American that while we have problems in Canada, and it very well could be 6-8 months to have surgery to correct your deviated septum, its hard to explain why that doesn't mean we have inferior health care and yet we have better health outcomes at the end of the day according to World Health Organization stats. Cherry picking and focusing on how long some elective procedures take here in Canada, which again we do have a difficult time with managing, does not have any relation to the overall quality of your health care here. I'm not young anymore, I've had all kinds of health issues. Hernia, cyst removal, broken bones, sliced my hand open once with glass, I've got severe allergies and have had to take shots, and this list could go on longer. I've always been treated very well with our Canadian health system. Did I wait a few months to see the allergy specialist many years ago? Yes, I did, and then I never had to wait after that initial consultation visit and I've been receiving allergy shots for decades now. And did I mention that I've never paid a dime of my own money to receive this top quality care?

The only time in my life I had problems with health access was when I ventured state side for that job in Pennsylvania, which was well documented earlier in this discussion a few weeks ago. And if you recall, I had mentioned I just got up and left. I left that contract early many years ago and willingly became unemployed to find new work here back home in Canada than to deal with that billing nightmare down there, and beyond that I suppose those doctors never got paid for any of the work they performed even though I had a paid insurance policy refusing to make payment. Unfortunately for many Americans, they don't have the choice I had to just get up and leave and finish treatment somewhere else for free.

The fact it takes a few months for a hernia surgery here in Canada? Not something I worry over. It could be improved, but that doesn't mean we have inferior health care. I didn't pay a dime - not one penny - out of pocket for my surgeries and procedures over the years and always received professional care by good people.

I hope this all makes sense to you, because I have actually had fun explaining it. It is a discussion, nothing more or nothing less. I am happy to listen all viewpoints. Your system has some perks, ours does as well. I clearly think our perks provide a superior experience (not receiving a bill for your medical services is liberating and so much better than the American experience), and I think its something proved by scientific surveys and stats. If you get cancer here and are forced to leave an employer and go onto disability to recover, your health care will be consistent, you won't have to shift doctors or hospitals in the middle of treatment and experience denials of care when you need it the most (this is one of the more deadly features of US care), and you don't have to worry about the bill. That's when you NEED health care, not a designer CT scan you can buy out of pocket more quickly for a general checkup. Yes, thats a perk the US health system has, but how much value is there in that vs. the other topics discussed? My opinion is still that the problems in our Canadian health systems are much easier to manage and improve on than some of the failures you see in the US with often more serious health ailments with fragmented and care denials. And i say this not as a judgment, but because I want the best for you and everyone you live around. I would hate to know someone in your country couldn't get the treatment he or she needs just be cause of inability to pay for it.

Last edited by Patriot08TO; 04-16-2017 at 02:47 PM.
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post #140 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 09:30 AM
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I said I wasn't going to keep discussing these issues, but I wanted to offer some final counter viewpoints and never addressed this comment.

You are assuming health care is of bad quality in the UK or Canada. This isn't true, I had hernia surgery myself in the past. I can relate to your cousin. I've been honest and straightforward with you: it took two months for mine. But I received high quality care. My procedure was not handled inappropriately, the doctors and medical staff did a terrific job.
Nope. No assumptions made. I never made a single statement that health care in Canada was of bad quality. Not once. I have no doubt that your doctors did a terrific job as you are still here to debate this topic.
My post was to counter the argument that even though private health insurance is sold in the UK, the fact that only 11% sign up for it shows that people prefer their public health insurance. That's patently absurd. People are people and will always opt for the cheapest route. If the UK provided a tax credit to those who signed up for private insurance instead of using the public service, would the number increase? What if the private insurance ended up costing less than what they received as a tax credit?

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If your wife had a crushed ankle in a car accident while here in Canada, she would have received quick service here as well. Things are run on triage, that is not the same thing as a hernia surgery at all. If they realize you have a crushed ankle in a car accident, and it is going to heal in a warped position and needs immediate care, you will get that surgery likely the same day or two of coming into the ER from the car accident. Its called triaged care. You don't actually believe a doctor in a Canadian ER would say no, let that ankle heal in a warped position, and then we'll re-brake it and re-set it in 3 months, do you? I know you are American, but do you really believe that? Is that what you're hearing about our system?!? LOL!
LOL! yourself.... I know your Canadian, but did you even read what I wrote? I never said that my wife would have not received timely care, or for that matter proper care in Canada. This was in response to scheduling surgeries. Your statement to me was that you doubted that my cousin could have had a hernia repaired in a week. So, I elaborated on that and backed it up with more personal experience of how quickly my wife's situation was handled. YOU are the one who talked about wait times for elective surgeries. By the way almost all surgeries are "elective". That just means that the surgery is scheduled in advance. So, if there are wait times in Canada for "elective surgeries" then there are wait times for any surgery that doesn't involve a person dying right now. If a woman needs a mastectomy for breast cancer, it's elective. If a person suffers a heart attack, does not die, but needs a heart bypass surgery..... It's elective. If a person breaks a bone and it needs surgically repaired..... IT'S ELECTIVE!!!!! I get "triaged care". The process of sorting people by level of need. All medical facilities in the US practice the same thing to some extent. No US hospital is allowed to turn someone away because they cannot pony up the cash or don't have insurance. Our insurance rates subsidize that when the hospitals bill those that can pay.
My point, this entire time, has been that while the US system has faults, it is not all bad. And, that we will fix it, but as it touches everyone in all walks of life, of all income levels, We can't fix health care correctly without addressing other parts of our political and economic policies. And, as great as you think your system is, it is not without it's faults.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-too-late.html

More than 52,000 Canadians travelled abroad for health care last year, study finds | National Post


Americans do have a distrust of our government. The VA hospital in Washington D.C. is a huge reason why. You would think the facility closest to our seat of government power could be held up as a shining example of our federal government caring for it's people. But no.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...nds/100376124/
Our government can't operate the postal service without bankrupting it, yet we should trust it with our very lives through single payer healthcare?
Factbox: Why the Postal Service is going bankrupt | Reuters
Our government can't get other social programs right as evidenced by the "liberal" Huffington post...
Is Social Security Really Going Bankrupt? | The Huffington Post

Once again, I am happy for you that you like your system of healthcare.
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post #141 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 09:56 AM
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That's what single payer programs achieve without direct laws on each medical product. Single payer kills several birds with one stone:

*Bulk purchase power reduces prices paid out of the insurance programs, so its more sustainable cost-wise.

*When most bills are paid through the primary insurance program, administrative costs are minimized tremendously. One coding system vs. thousands of codes for each service.

*Guaranteed coverage means there's no free riders pumping up costs for others, each patient has guaranteed payment.

Politically, single payer is much easier to handle, implement, and get everyone to agree upon. But that's just my opinion.
It does seem easier for people to agree apon but I still think that insurance companies have enough competition to be open to the free market. Just restrict the prices and let insurance companies compete on how to pay for those prices.
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post #142 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 11:08 PM
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It does seem easier for people to agree apon but I still think that insurance companies have enough competition to be open to the free market. Just restrict the prices and let insurance companies compete on how to pay for those prices.
Hmm. Well, okay then. Just think a bit on what you're saying and maybe you'll understand why I'm quite confused.
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post #143 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 11:53 PM
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Nope. No assumptions made. I never made a single statement that health care in Canada was of bad quality. Not once. I have no doubt that your doctors did a terrific job as you are still here to debate this topic.
My post was to counter the argument that even though private health insurance is sold in the UK, the fact that only 11% sign up for it shows that people prefer their public health insurance. That's patently absurd. People are people and will always opt for the cheapest route. If the UK provided a tax credit to those who signed up for private insurance instead of using the public service, would the number increase? What if the private insurance ended up costing less than what they received as a tax credit?



LOL! yourself.... I know your Canadian, but did you even read what I wrote? I never said that my wife would have not received timely care, or for that matter proper care in Canada. This was in response to scheduling surgeries. Your statement to me was that you doubted that my cousin could have had a hernia repaired in a week. So, I elaborated on that and backed it up with more personal experience of how quickly my wife's situation was handled. YOU are the one who talked about wait times for elective surgeries. By the way almost all surgeries are "elective". That just means that the surgery is scheduled in advance. So, if there are wait times in Canada for "elective surgeries" then there are wait times for any surgery that doesn't involve a person dying right now. If a woman needs a mastectomy for breast cancer, it's elective. If a person suffers a heart attack, does not die, but needs a heart bypass surgery..... It's elective. If a person breaks a bone and it needs surgically repaired..... IT'S ELECTIVE!!!!! I get "triaged care". The process of sorting people by level of need. All medical facilities in the US practice the same thing to some extent. No US hospital is allowed to turn someone away because they cannot pony up the cash or don't have insurance. Our insurance rates subsidize that when the hospitals bill those that can pay.
My point, this entire time, has been that while the US system has faults, it is not all bad. And, that we will fix it, but as it touches everyone in all walks of life, of all income levels, We can't fix health care correctly without addressing other parts of our political and economic policies. And, as great as you think your system is, it is not without it's faults.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-too-late.html

More than 52,000 Canadians travelled abroad for health care last year, study finds | National Post


Americans do have a distrust of our government. The VA hospital in Washington D.C. is a huge reason why. You would think the facility closest to our seat of government power could be held up as a shining example of our federal government caring for it's people. But no.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...nds/100376124/
Our government can't operate the postal service without bankrupting it, yet we should trust it with our very lives through single payer healthcare?
Factbox: Why the Postal Service is going bankrupt | Reuters
Our government can't get other social programs right as evidenced by the "liberal" Huffington post...
Is Social Security Really Going Bankrupt? | The Huffington Post

Once again, I am happy for you that you like your system of healthcare.

A few more points:

1) Nothing I've said is absurd. UK citizens opt for the NHS because it provides high quality care at no cost to the end user. Tax credits have nothing to do with it. The NHS is superior care, people choose it when they could choose private care if they wished.

2) I hear you, you say you understand triaged care. Good. I find we get quite timely care for important matters here. You don't meet Canadians waiting a long time for heart bypass surgery or cancer treatments or life and death stuff. Glad we've cleared that up.

3) You have sourced some very anti-government, biased sources. National Post (similar to Fox News) in Canada is a fairly anti-government rag many Canadian conservatives don't even agree with, and the Fraser Institute "study" (which the National Post link is based) produces very questionable "research" with an anti-government point of view and yet its posed here as fact.

I'm not sure if 52k is an accurate number, but that sounds low. There are probably more than 50k Canadians that own second homes or time shares in Phoenix or Florida to use as winter homes. Tons of those cases are not Canadians going to the US to seek care, but rather situational when Canadians are in the US on extended visits and cross-border emergencies like shopping in Buffalo for the weekend. I'd expect more cases.

Fraser Institute makes it sound like people are headed across for cancer care, which is exceedingly rare.

Understand your sources, because if you understand bias you can understand what is truth and what is fake news.

4) No US hospital can turn away patients on paper, no. You're right. But they can sure bankrupt you if you dare to get emergent care in them and don't pay. That's the entire problem in the US, plus your ER's don't provide preventative care. A cancer patient lacking good insurance won't get $10k monthly anti-cancer injections to prevent cancer from returning.

5) I'm well aware of the case in your link on the Star article. The Canadian system isn't perfect, sometimes mistakes happen. I advocate for them to be corrected and fixed and won't hide from these imperfections. However, if you google American health problems, I bet you'll find 100x the cases where Americans couldn't get this same procedure (insurance denials/experimental care excuses/no insurance coverage/etc) for every Canadian that had a problem. I know these cases all too well, our problems seem muted compared to yours. Honestly, I mean it.

6) Okay, I hear you. The VA health system is proof positive of why America should never reform its health system ever again, and why government is evil. I got that point clearly. Case closed! LOL

7) I'm glad I'm not in the USA, this discussion is vigorously entertaining. And on that note, I actually am done with the discussion. Only because I feel like I'm repeating points that have long been made already.

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post #144 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:42 AM
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A few more points:

1) Nothing I've said is absurd. UK citizens opt for the NHS because it provides high quality care at no cost to the end user. Tax credits have nothing to do with it. The NHS is superior care, people choose it when they could choose private care if they wished.

The notion that people prefer their NHS coverage to private coverage because only 11% opt to PAY EXTRA for private coverage versus just accepting the NHS coverage for free is absurd. People are people. It's the same reason so many people are driving with state minimum auto insurance. If the British government refunded the cost of their NHS coverage to them when they paid for private insurance, I am willing to bet those numbers change dramatically.

2) I hear you, you say you understand triaged care. Good. I find we get quite timely care for important matters here. You don't meet Canadians waiting a long time for heart bypass surgery or cancer treatments or life and death stuff. Glad we've cleared that up.

3) You have sourced some very anti-government, biased sources. National Post (similar to Fox News) in Canada is a fairly anti-government rag many Canadian conservatives don't even agree with, and the Fraser Institute "study" (which the National Post link is based) produces very questionable "research" with an anti-government point of view and yet its posed here as fact.

I'm not sure if 52k is an accurate number, but that sounds low. There are probably more than 50k Canadians that own second homes or time shares in Phoenix or Florida to use as winter homes. Tons of those cases are not Canadians going to the US to seek care, but rather situational when Canadians are in the US on extended visits and cross-border emergencies like shopping in Buffalo for the weekend. I'd expect more cases.

Fraser Institute makes it sound like people are headed across for cancer care, which is exceedingly rare.

Understand your sources, because if you understand bias you can understand what is truth and what is fake news.

I'm not that familiar with Canadian News sources. I read news from lots of sources from all over the world and then make up my mind. I usually find the truth is somewhere in between. There are well over 50K Canadians with second homes or timeshares in Florida alone. A lot of them retirees, that do use our healthcare system while they are here. They keep coming back.
The Fraser Institute used numbers from and conducted their survey with the Canadian Medical Association. Is the CMA biased as well? I see the "fake news" fad has reached our northern neighbors as well. Same study cited by a different news source that has a better outline of the study and it's numbers:
Estimated 52,000 Canadians sought medical care outside Canada, Fraser Institute says - Windsor - CBC News


4) No US hospital can turn away patients on paper, no. You're right. But they can sure bankrupt you if you dare to get emergent care in them and don't pay. That's the entire problem in the US, plus your ER's don't provide preventative care. A cancer patient lacking good insurance won't get $10k monthly anti-cancer injections to prevent cancer from returning.

You received care in the U.S. and stated that you did not pay. Are you bankrupt? Did they track you down, freeze your bank accounts, repo your home or vehicle? Even the liberally biased snopes site won't touch this one. The big claim is that over 600K Americans face bankruptcy each year because of medical costs. Except that even snopes notes that the numbers are fishy, that the reasons for bankruptcy are not always clear cut, and that people in the UK and Canada face bankruptcy at the same rate as people in the US. If the people in the UK and Canada aren't facing the debt because of medical bills but are still going bankrupt at the same rate, then what other factors aren't being uncovered.
I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that struggle to pay for medical treatment, or even that their medical costs didn't dump them over that cliff,
but the numbers are very nebulous. ER's will provide whatever care a patient is needing. They may then refer you to another physician for a follow up, but every time I have been in an ER, there were people there for headaches, back pain, and some just trying to score some free opiates. There are also a myriad of free clinics, cash only doctors that offer huge discounts because they don't have to play the billing game with insurance companies, etc. And despite our high prices,
patients without borders still rates the U.S. as the number one destination for medical tourism.


5) I'm well aware of the case in your link on the Star article. The Canadian system isn't perfect, sometimes mistakes happen. I advocate for them to be corrected and fixed and won't hide from these imperfections. However, if you google American health problems, I bet you'll find 100x the cases where Americans couldn't get this same procedure (insurance denials/experimental care excuses/no insurance coverage/etc) for every Canadian that had a problem. I know these cases all too well, our problems seem muted compared to yours. Honestly, I mean it.

I agree. The problems in the Canadian system seem muted compared to ours. Ours get played out on Television for the whole world to see and hear. Yours do not. Doesn't mean they aren't there, just that they are muted.

6) Okay, I hear you. The VA health system is proof positive of why America should never reform its health system ever again, and why government is evil. I got that point clearly. Case closed! LOL

Once again, LOL yourself. Stop putting words in my mouth. I used YOUR example of the VA as a reason why Americans have a distrust of government programs, not "proof positive of why America should never reform its health system ever again". No retort to the other items I mentioned though. Once again "cherry picking" I see....


7) I'm glad I'm not in the USA, this discussion is vigorously entertaining. And on that note, I actually am done with the discussion. Only because I feel like I'm repeating points that have long been made already.
For all your long winded posts, LOL's, and anecdotal stories, you have yet to back up a single statement you have made with any verified research, news, or proof. Even the easy ones. Repeating your opinion doesn't magically make it fact. As I have said from the beginning, and in each post I have made, the US system isn't perfect. Neither is yours. According to Ontariowaittimes.com You would face an 89 day wait for surgery for prostrate cancer, a 62 day wait for heart bypass surgery, a 142 day wait for lumbar disc surgery, 80 days for aneurysm surgery, and 261!!!! days for a knee replacement. All of which could keep a person from working, maintaining their standard of living, and some of which could easily kill you prior to getting the surgery you need. Or is the Ontario Ministry of health and long term wellness a "biased" and "anti-government" source as well?
DangerAaron is offline  
post #145 of 145 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 10:36 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Wow Aaron, just wow.

You seriously brought up wait lists again? Did I not explain this before? An 80 day surgery average is just that, an average for non-emergent surgery based on a survey of hospitals. Aortic aneurysms can go for years without surgery if they maintain and don't expand/get weaker. Many specialists opt to wait many years since surgery can carry more risks than waiting for patients where it isn't weakening and expanding. I know, I've had someone in my family deal with it. If a doctor thinks you are about to pop after a checkup, you'll get the surgery in hours or days, not 80. If a doc thinks you'd live years without surgery, you'd probably wait the average 80 days to get the surgery. You still don't understand triage or what our wait lists are about. Those are surveys, not central government wait lists. The term "wait list" is misinterpreted on your part. Each case is treated differently. You clearly aren't getting this.

And regarding billing (since you claim I never faced any consequences), I left the US and was only there temporarily on a temporary social security number/temp work visa (yes I was legal). I could have stayed longer, but this issue is what caused me to leave the US. I am pretty sure that old credit profile was trashed whatever was on it. I do remember enough about the experience that every doctor and lab office I visited demanded and required a social security number, which I provided. If the bills I didn't pay had a judgment against me, I never knew as a foreign US court judgment doesn't apply to me. Your fellow Americans who deal with this aren't so lucky, they can't just walk away from it as I did. I refused to pay when my insurance company didn't pay up its portion, all I paid were the co-pays my insurance card required when I showed up for the initial visits. I vividly remember the secretary at the old doctor's office said she wouldn't schedule a visit if past bills hadn't been reconciled, so that's when I opted to get up and leave your country.

If I were a US permanent resident and stayed there, I would have had problems to deal with. There would have been major consequences. What was I supposed to do, keep seeking alternate doctors and not pay the bill and receive fragmented treatment while receiving more collections notices from each office I went to? I don't know how much more clear I can get that that. The experience was a nightmare. I cannot believe what you guys put up with in your medical system, its shocking to me. The fact I don't even have to pay a dime to see any doctor or hospital is simply amazing.

Before this happened, I really didn't think about health care issues at all. I don't hate the US, on the contrary I think there is a lot to love. The beaches on Sanibel island in Florida? Wonderful. The fun people and delicious food on my visits over the years? GREAT! Medical care isn't one of those things, however.

No need to engage further, this is just repeating what I've tried to get across before.

Last edited by Patriot08TO; 04-22-2017 at 11:18 AM.
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