Won't start after accident - Page 2 - Jeep Patriot Forums
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:58 PM
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Did you measure the battery voltage? If not, how do you know the battery took the charge?
Really need to eliminate low battery voltage as the root cause.
Can you turn on the headlights? If so are they bright as normal?
If they're much dimmer than normal, back to the battery voltage test.

The flashing dash lights are puzzling!
Assuming the battery is OK, starting to look more and more like something might still be going on with the alarm system. I don't have alarm systems on any of my vehicles and never will.
Might want to do a search on Patriot alarm systems and how to disable them.

If the battery voltage is between 12.4 - 13 volts with ignition off then as a last ditch effort, you might try to reset the pcm.
Remove the negative cable from the battery being extremely careful not to let a wrench touch the positive battery terminal in the process. Or else all hell will break loose!
Make sure the now removed negative cable/clamp is not touching 'anything' and let the Jeep sit overnight. Reconnect the next morning and try again.

Can only go by what you're conveying to us without being there to observe.

2014 Patriot Latitude 4X4 | 2000 Jeep XJ | 2016 Ford F150 XLT | 2005 Dodge Neon
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:48 PM
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Batteries can be fickle creatures. It may show proper voltage, but still be bad. It may no longer have the needed amperage to start the vehicle, even with a good charger attached to the battery terminals. Might I suggest taking your battery to your local auto parts store and have them load test it. Most will do it for free. If it's good, well, then you've eliminated that as possible fault
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 10:33 AM
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jerm1383, very true. That would be the ideal battery test.

However if a one or more cells are bad for example, simply reading the open circuit battery voltage will tell the tale.
There's also the related possibility of corroded or loose battery cable clamps not to mention a faulty ground to engine/chassis connection.
In my experience, an old battery about ready to retire then drastically discharged next to nothing volts typically will not take an adequate charge ever again.
Getting the impression the OP is not mechanically inclined the reason i think the voltage hasn't been measured yet far as i can tell.

Other than taking the battery out to get it checked at an Auto Parts store... the reason i suggested the headlight test.
Nowhere near a legit 'battery under load test' but headlights draw an appreciable amount of amperage maybe enough to point to a bad battery. Ideally, the battery voltage should also be read with the lights on.

Not saying that the battery is the root cause but it has to be eliminated as such one way or the other.

Now i got my own problems with my Dodge Neon. Throwing a P0340 CEL, no cam sensor signal.
Onto the parts store once again!! It never ends.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 12:55 PM
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I poked around in my factory service manual for ideas, but came up short. Maybe an OBDII code scanner might show some diagnostic codes?
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 07:33 PM
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Good idea Treegrower, a CEL code would if one was generated would be a big clue but...
I could be wrong but i think the OPer either doesn't have or know how to use a voltmeter yet alone a CEL scanner. The vehicle would have to be driven somewhere that has one or borrowed from someone who knows how to use it.

In the least jerm1383's suggestion of taking the battery to an Auto Parts store to get it tested is a worthwhile one.
If nothing else, it would eliminate the battery as the root cause. Extremely low battery voltages can do strange things especially if the PCM is not fed or is intermittently fed its minimum voltage requirement.

And trying to crank the engine over with a very weak battery can make matters worse due to the internal impedance of the battery which all have to a greater or lesser degree depending on the battery's condition. Especially considering an old discharged battery on its last legs.
The added starter current through that internal battery impedance creates a voltage drop internally in the battery further reducing the voltage across the battery terminals not to mention reducing output current.

If the battery is charged and in good shape including its cable clamps, then this so far appears to be one big coincidence.... that is the accident and a no start and now the strange blinking dash lights.

I know nothing about Patriot alarm systems.
The OPer already solved one electrical issue by resetting the alarm system.
Could be its still semi-enabled via some kind of a fault.
At this point, its all guessing without any hard data!

2014 Patriot Latitude 4X4 | 2000 Jeep XJ | 2016 Ford F150 XLT | 2005 Dodge Neon
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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Where is this ďbatteryĒ everyone keeps mentioning? I looked under the visor, but canít find it. Is it AA, or AAA?

Iím disabled with broken back, & a bum left leg. Iím here to eliminate as much tinkering as possible because it literally hurts to do. Just like digging through storage to find my multimeter, which proved that the battery is definitely part of the overall problem (voltage, not corrosion,) but likely wonít be the ultimate solution (unless flashing dash lights indicate a bad battery.) Iím also unemployed (due to the injury -which only adds insult,) so when I can afford a new (12v) battery; Iíll be back with the revised list of symptoms.

Also, I donít have a code reader, but (unless I can get by without) Iíll get one when I can.
Even though I donít know how to use it.
Yet.

As for my mechanical inclination; no, Iím not certified, & wouldnít call myself a gearhead, but I wish Patriots were as easy to work on as the 9 second Pinto I helped my dad build back in the 90s (or even the Mustang we built to do 12s.) Did I mention that (with help) I replaced the entire rear suspension since the accident? Iíve been clear, & thorough in my descriptions, repeating myself several times in this thread, but Iíve been nice about it because I have manners. I also solved part of the problem with no help at all from this site (after suggesting several times that I suspected the alarm, but really, what do I know?) I appreciate any/all help, but please donít discuss me anymore. This is about my poor car, not how incompetent you think I may be.

FYI: this couldnít possibly be more frustrating to you -than it is to me.

I apologize for wasting anyones time.

Her name is Dorothy.
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Since the original problem is resolved, I’d like to end this thread with the solution that worked for me.

The original issue:
Absolutely nothing worked on the car. Not even when I turned the key.
Nothing means: nothing (no interior, or exterior lights, no dash lights, no engine cranking, or sounds at all.)

In an effort to troubleshoot with limited resources: I activated the alarm, & opened the door -to the sound of the alarm horn honking every second, or so (just like it normally sounds when I’ve accidentally set it off in the past.) Just the alarm horn though, no flashing lights, or anything else, & the rest of the car was just as dead as before.
I’ve heard about ‘pendulums’ in alarms that are a last line of defense for the alarm system to keep your car from being stolen, but didn’t know if that was the root of this particular problem. It seems that it was, so….

If you get absolutely nothing when you turn the key (especially after a tow, or accident,) & have an alarm, try this:

1- Activate the alarm with your remote/key.
2- Open any door.

3- If the alarm horn doesn’t sound; it is very likely a dead battery.
At least; check for corrosion on the battery posts. Be sure connectors are clean, & fastened tightly enough that proper contact is being made. If you’re intimidated, or inexperienced; it might be best to seek help, but batteries are only dangerous if you mishandle them, & there are plenty of videos/tutorials available online for quick, easy lessons. I suggest youtube university for video, but there’s also plenty of good advice posted on other pages/threads of this very website.
(There’s also some very solid advice in this very thread about batteries, & fuses, so be sure to scroll back through.)

4- If the alarm horn does sound, but you still get nothing when you turn the key:
Try disconnecting the battery (negative ( - ) side first. Be sure to tuck aside -away from any metal.) Check/clean terminal posts, & connectors of any corrosion. Be sure bolts are tight (enough that you can’t wiggle the connector (on the post) with your hand.) Clean any/all corrosion, but if it is already clean; you don’t necessarily have to disconnect the positive ( + ) side, just be sure it is properly connected before reconnecting the negative side again, & never let metal touch both sides at once.)
Leave it disconnected for at least 30 minutes, then reconnect.

5- If that doesn’t fix it; you might need to reset your alarm by disconnecting, then reconnecting it.
I needed a philips head drill/screwdriver, & 4 cable ties to do the job. You may also need a torx (likely a T20,) maybe wire cutters/crimpers, & new connectors (I suggest quick connect over butt connectors (see below) - in case you have to do it again.)
Note: I went to the dealer, & was talked through it, but the techs were (slightly) off about a few details. I still suggest contacting “the alarm guys” at your local Jeep dealership for tips/instructions.
If your alarm isn’t stock; it may need replaced, or serviced by a tech. I suggest the nearest car stereo shop/installer, or where it was purchased/installed, perhaps even your local Jeep dealership?

6- I have a stock (Chapman) alarm with keychain remote (not a smart (fob) key,) & this is what I did:
(Alarm is behind 2 panels under the steering column. 6 screws total (if I remember correctly) to remove both panels.)
A- The first panel matches the interior, & is the flat-ish piece directly under the steering column. Once you remove that, the (2nd) one under it should be black, & a bit smaller (sorta looks like the side of a milk crate.) I think it was 2 screws for the first panel, 4 screws for the black panel. My screws were all phillips head, but you may encounter a torx, or 2 (likely a T20.) The phillips heads were super easy to remove with a drill. Hopefully this video I found will load for you
(I would ignore what he does after the 45 second mark, it wasn’t necessary to access the alarm in my car.)
B- The alarm was tucked up above the black panel -on the outside of the steering column.
C- The techs at the dealership suggested certain color wires (but those colors weren’t used in the install,) so, I found the 3 largest diameter wires coming out of the alarm, traced them to their connections, & disconnected them for about 10 minutes.
(Installers use several types of connectors, so be prepared to cut wire, & replace connectors. My connectors were spliced ’quick disconnect’ similar to these -
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/3075...le-Disconnect/
butt you may have ‘butt connectors’ -
Heat Shrink Butt Connectors | Cold Crimp Butt Connectors | Weather Pack Terminals and Seals
which will need to be cut out/replaced.)

Note: I had to cut the cable ties that bundled a bazillion wires together -to trace the 3 largest diameter wires up near the corner of the interior/firewall -where they were connected to other wires via the spliced quick connect. If you have to cut your ‘bundling’ cable ties to trace down your 3 larger wires; be careful not to cut any wires while cutting those cable ties.
Note #2: if you have to (carefully) cut the ‘bundling’ cable ties; be gentle tracing the wires, & it will be much easier to bundle the spaghetti back together neatly/reliably when you’re done.

7- If that doesn’t work, try disconnecting the battery for (at least) 30 minutes, then repeat.

Finally, if that doesn’t work; you may have already seen the solution in this thread, or you may need to keep searching, but this is what solved the original problem/reason for this post. I (obviously) have many more issues to deal with, but if your car was towed, or worse; it could happen to you, & this could solve it.

Good luck!!
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Last edited by Dorothy; 04-21-2017 at 05:03 PM.
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 10:28 PM
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I'm still a bit confused. In post #13 you said that you disconnected the alarm per dealer instructions and it partially fixed the problem. What did you do different in your last instructions? Was it the actual cutting/disconnecting of the wires??

Is the "stock" Chapman alarm installed at the factory, or was it a dealer add on.

Thanks for you follow up in order to help others. Your story is why us old curmudgeons can complain how all the electronic complication is going to bite us in the rear end at some point. I just read an article about some headlights costing over $400 to replace. Some keys are the same way. Makes me glad I bought a very basic Patriot...knocking on wood.....don't need my buns warmed or a push button to get the windows down. Cost me about $30 to make some spare keys. Good grief...I AM an old curmudgeon.

Anyone working on the steering column should be aware of disabling your air bags correctly....very dangerous.
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Last edited by Treegrower; 04-23-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:09 PM
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Treegrower, yeah its great the OPer posted a follow up.

But i got to say, this thread left a bad taste in my mouth for multiple reasons.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treegrower View Post
I'm still a bit confused. In post #13 you said that you disconnected the alarm per dealer instructions and it partially fixed the problem. What did you do different in your last instructions? Was it the actual cutting/disconnecting of the wires??

Is the "stock" Chapman alarm installed at the factory, or was it a dealer add on.

Thanks for you follow up in order to help others. Your story is why us old curmudgeons can complain how all the electronic complication is going to bite us in the rear end at some point. I just read an article about some headlights costing over $400 to replace. Some keys are the same way. Makes me glad I bought a very basic Patriot...knocking on wood.....don't need my buns warmed or a push button to get the windows down. Cost me about $30 to make some spare keys. Good grief...I AM an old curmudgeon.

Anyone working on the steering column should be aware of disabling your air bags correctly....very dangerous.
Thanks for the reminder on steering column work, but I only had to pull the panels that cover it.

As for the alarm; I bought the car new, & thats the alarm that was in it. I’m not sure of Chapmans affiliation with Jeep, or when their alarms get installed. I remember the option of having the alarm pulled out before I signed, but decided to keep it. Likely a dealer add-on, but I’m not certain.

The car still won’t start, but now I’m getting a response by turning the key, whereas I got nothing from turning the key before. As for any other progress; I’m still on standby due to lack of funds.

As for the instructions from the alarm guy at the dealership; I had to improvise a little because (I’m guessing) he was wrong about my alarm model(?)
I didn’t have to cut any wires, but he said I might need to -because apparently; some installers use butt connectors to splice/connect, so I mentioned it here.
After talking to him; it was all sort of self explanatory, which is why I still suggested talking to a pro before attempting this. I’m not telling anyone how to fix their problem, just what worked for my issue. This is the internet, after all. We should all do our own research before diving into something like this, but I certainly hope this helps others in their research.

I only insisted on 4 options when I bought it. The 2.4, automatic (CVT,) air conditioning, & a CD player. I don’t even have power windows/locks, because as soon as I sat in Dorothy; I knew she was the car for me. I really wanted a blue one (with power windows/locks,) but I fell for her, so I agree; basic is better, though I still wish I had power windows/locks;/

(Even if it came with a happy ending; I’d still never pay $400 for a headlight, or knowingly drive a car that requires $400 headlights

Her name is Dorothy.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 02:48 AM
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Sorry to take this a little off track, but is there anyway that drunk is contributing to all this work you're doing? I mean, surely he has some money in his pocket that he can put out for all the trouble you've got to go through to fix everything.
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webbrowan View Post
Sorry to take this a little off track, but is there anyway that drunk is contributing to all this work you're doing? I mean, surely he has some money in his pocket that he can put out for all the trouble you've got to go through to fix everything.
20 years ago; I wouldíve rounded up some friends with guns, & knocked on his door the day after, but thats not an option these days -for several reasons. According to his post on fb; he paid $100 for the car, & $200 to get it running, so I doubt he has any money anyway. Also, I'm sure his lawyers have advised him against doing anything to accept responsibility because that would be Ďadmitting guiltí to the crimes being held against him.

Ultimately; he will be ordered by a judge to pay me restitution, but that doesnít mean heíll ever pay it, or that it'll even be a fair amount. I believe I also have the option of suing him, but Iím waiting to see what the judge does in the current case -that the state has against him, which includes Ďcriminal property damageí.
The next court date is June 6th, but it wont be the last.

Thanks for asking

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