More 5W20 info... - Jeep Patriot Forums
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post #1 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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More 5W20 info...

I've been doing a lot of research about wear vs. full economy with the 5W20 oil that is recommended for our cars.

So far, the sources that are trying to sell you a different product are telling us not to use 5W20. Sources that sell both don't seem to think it is a problem.

An example is the Mobile web site. If you ask it what kind of oil to use, it tells you 10W30 for the Patriot, however when you ask if 5W20 is okay then it says sure!

Quote:
Question:
Protection Provided by 5W-20 Motor Oil
My new Honda I-VTEC 4 Cylinder calls for 5W-20 oil. I've been using Mobil 1 5W-30 in my 2000 Tundra. I was using the 5W-30 in my 2004 Mazda 3 2.0 L even though the manual called for 5W-20. My question: Because of the federal CAFE mandates to improve gas mileage auto makers have gone to lighter oils. Can a 5W-20 synthetic really provide the same amount of wear protection as a 5W-30 synthetic oil? Have machine tolerances become so exact that they really require a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30?
-- Howard Snook, Lowgap, NC
Answer:
Car builders that recommend 5W-20 viscosity oils have tested these oils extensively to ensure that they provide adequate protection of critical engine parts. Our testing has shown that Mobil 1 5W-20 provides excellent wear protection in modern vehicles. Because today’s engines have tighter tolerances – due to improvements in metallurgy and parts-finishing quality, oils with a low film thickness can provide the protection required and at the same time provide fuels economy benefits. Mobil 1 5W-20 is designed for vehicles where a 5W-20 viscosity oil is recommended. Not only does Mobil 1 5W-20 help extend engine life but it also provides exceptional fuel economy as well.
Right now, it's not that I disagree with the theory of using 10W30, I just havn't seen any convincing aregument for it.
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post #2 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 07:17 PM
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I put in a question to both Jeep and Mobil1. We will see if I get any answers.

2008 Silver Trail Rated FDII, Off Road Package, Convenience and Security Package, 0w-20 Mobil 1 Synthetic, Black Widow Roof Rack, Husky Liners.
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post #3 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 07:36 PM
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From my tribology class in school, I learned that all automotive crankshafts are externally pressurized. The viscosity comes into play, but I was surprised to find that the amount of force that can be distributed by a mere 10 microinches (1/100000 inch) of film thickness. The more important consideration is oil pressure.

Having said that, I am confident that the engine designers took the viscosity into consideration when they selected 5W-20.

I also use the synthetic due to its more consistent physical properties over the life of the oil change and oil temperature.
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post #4 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 10:07 PM
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I am not sure which Mobil site you are checking. When I checked it they are recommending 5w-30 (not 10w-30).

Mobil 1 Recommendation

These links have been posted on here a couple times, but here they are again:

EPA Letter - CAFE

TSB Patriot Europe

Machinery Lubrication Article


.

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post #5 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
they are recommending 5w-30 (not 10w-30).
Yes, my bad. That is what I saw too.

Quote:
EPA Letter - CAFE
From what I see, this letter clearly links 5W20 to CAFE gas mileage, but I don't see anything that implies lack of lubrication.

Quote:
TSB Patriot Europe
This one is the most persuasive. The problem is there is no explanation why the change. As some had said, they thought it had to do with the speeds on the autobahn.

Quote:
Machinery Lubrication Article
There are many articles like this on the internet. Some of them are copy and pasted word for word. They make perfect sense but are a little inconclusive. Their bottom line is...

Quote:
The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.
So, if you tow something or spend most of your time on the highway in 100 degree temps, you should probably go with a heavier oil. If you are driving around town with 10 degree temps, you should go with a lighter oil.

You know what, I'm probably making too big a deal about this. Maybe I should go with the 5W20 in the winter and 5W30 in the summer.

Some people have stated that with our lifetime warrentees, if the engine has problems we'll just get new ones. Well that's not quite the way it works. When something goes wrong, they will fix what is wrong and nothing else. If one rod bearing spins, they will replace that and probably nothing else and they'll hope you get sick and tired of messing with it rather that bring it back again. That's just the way it is. Any work they do for free is going to be minimal.

That being said, maybe I'll just go with the 5W30 all year.
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post #6 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCno View Post
This one is the most persuasive. The problem is there is no explanation why the change. As some had said, they thought it had to do with the speeds on the autobahn.
My problem with the autobahn argument is, what about those in the rest of Europe (and England) where the speed limits are more or less comparable to the US?

I do agree with individual driving requirements and situations...the oil on a loaded down Pat with 5 adults (and no oil cooler package) driving in the mountains during an August heatwave is going to be significantly more stressed than a Pat driven on flat land in cool weather (oil cooler or not)...
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post #7 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 10:50 AM
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I have sent in an email request to Jeep asking them specifically and only if 5w30 would void the warranty. I did this via e-mail so they will have to respond in writing. I am crossing my fingers for a clear reply, but am not holding my breath.

I have an FDII, so I also have an engine oil cooler. I am hopeful this combined with synthetic 5w20 will give me a good deal more protection over conventional 5w20.

There is a fairly persuasive argument that others have brought that 5w30 is a better option.

The autobahn argument makes sense but the problem is that it is isn't verified. It makes sense that the same warning would go to all of Europe, even Britian as they are a union now and probably gets a blanket ruling for the entire continent.

If I get an all clear from Jeep, I will go with 5w30, short of that I just don't know.

I read the manual and I don't see a real clear statement either way. I will have to read the warranty booklet again and see if that gives permission to use 5w30.

2008 Silver Trail Rated FDII, Off Road Package, Convenience and Security Package, 0w-20 Mobil 1 Synthetic, Black Widow Roof Rack, Husky Liners.
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post #8 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 11:17 AM
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The CAFE story is BS. Think of it this way... IF 5w20 increases gas mileage, the only way it can do that is by reducing engine friction as opposed to 5w30. Since friction is the enemy of any machine 5w20 is a better oil. Just because the oil is of a "lighter" spec, does not mean that it is proving LESS protection.


The whole temperature thing does not apply either if you use synthetic oil. IE Mobil 1 5w20 is not going to break down at 100mph as opposed to conventional 5w30.
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post #9 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 12:53 PM
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I think you all are making a big deal out of nothing. The manual says 5w-20 the oil fill cap says 5w-20 so thats what I'm going to use. I don't think jeep would have us use an oil that would harm the engine in some way. Plus synthetic oils are made to handle heat and all much better than regular oil. I am going to use mobil 1 full synthetic oil when its time to change 5w-20.
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post #10 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 02:05 PM
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roberttroll and metalhead.......

thank you.
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post #11 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 02:46 PM
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I agree with your comment about altering oil depending on the circumstances.

The biggest point to this debate is 5w-20 has very little to do with engineering and everything to do with the EPA and CAFE targets. When we see Europe and Asia using 5w-20 then I may change my mind.

A point of clarification, having lived in Germany, "Autobahn" is the German word for "highway" and most of the German highways do in fact have speed limits albeit 120-130 km/hr is common. Driving 130km/hr+ is not as hard on an engine as driving 110km/hr in +45 C such is found in the southern US. In my mind the "Autobahn" arguement goes right out the window. Not to mention Germany is only one European country out of several, all of which do not even allow the sale of 5w-20.

5w-20 will likely not "harm" your Patriot, however to say it is better or will protect your engine more is false in every regard.....

( In my humble opinion )


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCno View Post
SNIP.....There are many articles like this on the internet. Some of them are copy and pasted word for word. They make perfect sense but are a little inconclusive. Their bottom line is...



So, if you tow something or spend most of your time on the highway in 100 degree temps, you should probably go with a heavier oil. If you are driving around town with 10 degree temps, you should go with a lighter oil.

...That being said, maybe I'll just go with the 5W30 all year.

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post #12 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roberttroll View Post
The CAFE story is BS. Think of it this way... IF 5w20 increases gas mileage, the only way it can do that is by reducing engine friction as opposed to 5w30. Since friction is the enemy of any machine 5w20 is a better oil. Just because the oil is of a "lighter" spec, does not mean that it is proving LESS protection.
.
It's not friction, it is the power required to pump a viscous fluid and shear stress...the oil pump mainly, but all parts that rotate or move on an oil film are subject to sheer stress, which is increased as the viscosity is increased.

This is even more pronounced the tighter the gap is between the parts (the argument is often made that new engines have tighter tolerances, blah blah), then the sheer stress differences between fluids of different viscosities are even greater, as sheer stress is inversely proportional to the distance between the moving planes (the parts lubricated by the oil).

This is why lower viscosity oils help with gas millage.
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post #13 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 03:34 PM
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...let me jump into your discussion about Mobil recommendation for Europe. I just tried to find 5W-20 oil on Google.de (Germany) and Seznam.cz (Czech) and what a wonder, no hit!? All major manufactures (Mobil, Shell, Aral, Total, OMV, Exxon) don't offer this weight!? You can have 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40, etc., but not 5W-20. Sure you can imported from USA, but can you imagine the price?

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post #14 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 08:55 PM
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With my Triumph motorcycle - the Spec from Triumph was Mobil 4T. It had no direct spec like you would see on an American oil can. You would either buy imported 4T or the next best thing was i think 5w50. Like the guy just posted below I bet there is no spec for 5w20 in Europe. So the Chrysler engineers are saying the next best thing that would be OK is 5w30.

Secondly you are all assuming that the European version has the same engine as the us version. They might share alot, but i can assure you they are not 100% the same engine. Emissions requirements are different.

About the oil pump thing - Sheer Stress IS friction. The only way for gas mileage to increase from one identical engine to the next is to lower internal friction. If 5w20 were providing less protection then it would be causing more wear and tear on internal parts = more friction = lower mileage.

That engineer who designed that engine said 5w20, and was so confident that the company is offering an unlimited mileage warranty. That should say enough.
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post #15 of 189 (permalink) Old 03-23-2008, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
That engineer who designed that engine said 5w20, and was so confident that the company is offering an unlimited mileage warranty. That should say enough.
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It really doesn't tell me much. It is a warranty for the first owner only. How many people own a car past 3 years, 5 years, 7 years. So, though it's a great deal for me who keeps his car forever, I only see it as a marketing ploy, not a show of confidence.

I'd like to see the figures to see how much will cost them compared to a 5 yr/ 60,000 mile warranty or 10 year/120,000 mile warranty.

I'm sorry, but I'm a cynic.
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